#44687
10/15/2001 3:27 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Darn you, maverick! You pinched me in the birthdays thread, where I couldn't chase you down and get you back, so NOW look what you've made me do--come over here and start a whole new thread![mock-glower e] Here's what started the chase: Have you seen M-W’s Word of the Day, Jackie? *EG*AUGH! Maverick! You come here this instant! BOY do I have something for you!!! Oooh!   I did find vindication, there, though: Some critics dislike "orientate" because it contains an unnecessary extra syllable, but you can decide for yourself how important that consideration is for you. Personal choice is the primary deciding factor, although "orientate" tends to be used more often in British English than it is in American. So, pppbbbfffttt, to you. [stalks righteously away muttering, "Gol-danged Brit-speakers anyway..."]
|
|
|
#44688
10/15/2001 3:38 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
Mav, would you agree that Jackie's "pppbbbfffttt" is the US (and unasterisked) equivalent of what you British-Isler ayleurs would refer to as a raspberry tart?
|
|
|
#44689
10/15/2001 7:38 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
|
|
|
#44690
10/15/2001 7:43 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
[ blue ]PS: To Keiva (and I never mentioned even once that grand piano-mouthed mammal!)[/ blue ]
But Dub-Dub, ya' did-did!
|
|
|
#44691
10/16/2001 4:57 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
I was under the impression reiterate was used to mean "say again" while iterate was confined to more technical and mathematical contexts.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
#44692
10/16/2001 5:11 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
nearly all current dictionaries equate the two, even when giving shadings for synonyms of 'repeat'; the math usage is the newest sense of iterate, not showing up in the citations until 1953.
|
|
|
#44693
10/16/2001 5:38 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
Oh well. Perhaps it's a useful differentiation to be encouraged. [hopeful look]
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
#44694
10/16/2001 11:20 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
the math usage is the newest sense of iterate, not showing up in the citations until 1953.
tsuwm, that fascinating! In all honesty (and not as a stretch to lead to my next comment) I'd always assumed the converse.
(apparently my prior practice had bee ill-iterate.)
|
|
|
#44695
10/16/2001 2:18 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
It should also be noted that the prefix re- has an intensifying function as well as a repetitive one.
Not to mention that in Latin, verbs with prefixes have often not fallen far from their respective trees.
|
|
|
#44696
10/17/2001 2:50 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385 |
I agree, Wordwind. Only the ill-iterate would use "reiterate". 
|
|
|
#44697
10/17/2001 8:42 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
|
|
|
#44698
10/17/2001 5:01 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
redazzle
A quick perusal of on line dictionaries indicates that reiterate has more of a repetitive connotation than does iterate. That is, reiterate has more of a feeling of "enough already" not present in the less overbearing iterate.
But perhaps only the ill-iterate would retain sufficient feeling for the nuances of spoken language to detect that.
Dazzle is of course from an English (or possibly Norse, but it entered the English language early enough) stem and thus takes the English intensifier be-.
I trust I may be allowed sufficient time to browse a brick and mortar dictionary to find a re- verb that will satisfy your requirements, Dub Dub'?
|
|
|
#44699
10/17/2001 5:12 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
Dub-dub, would you accept an example using a different prefix? Such as flammable/inflammable?
|
|
|
#44700
10/17/2001 5:45 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
I thought of reemphasize, but that just means to emphasize again or anew rather than emphasize more.
I can't for the moment think of a usage of re- as an intensifier; the other common meaning of the prefix re- is back, as in recall or react....
oh, wait... how about refine?
|
|
|
#44701
10/17/2001 6:42 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
how about refine?
Hmm, this requires some thought. I'll have to redouble my efforts.
|
|
|
#44702
10/17/2001 9:41 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Hmm, this requires some thought. I'll have to redouble my efforts.
Fine by me.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#44703
10/17/2001 10:57 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
|
|
|
#44704
10/17/2001 11:32 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>I don't believe fine/refine, call/recall, and
act/react work in the same way....
well, I didn't lump them together. in fact, the only one I suggested might fit the intensifier bill was refine, thusly:
fine: to make fine or pure; to purify from extraneous or impure matter
refine: to free from imperfections or defects; to bring to a more perfect state
|
|
|
#44705
10/17/2001 11:37 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
|
|
|
#44706
10/18/2001 12:40 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636 |
I was fined and refined one day when I forgot I'd parked my car in the alley instead of the parking lot per usual. Dang Autopark Nazis cost me $16.00 instead of just $8.00.
|
|
|
#44707
10/18/2001 1:04 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
This brings to mind "redundant", which is in a class with "disgruntled" -- I don't recall ever seeing a dundant expression.
|
|
|
#44708
10/18/2001 1:07 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
byb, you are so couth and kempt.
|
|
|
#44709
10/18/2001 1:43 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
This brings to mind "redundant", which is in a class with "disgruntled" -- I don't recall ever seeing a dundant expression.
wrong class, bob. while there certainly is a 'gruntle' (to utter a little or low grunt), there is no dundant because the L. root redundare was formed from re(d)- + undare, to surge (the re- means back).
[btw, disgruntle uses dis- as an intensifier]
|
|
|
#44710
10/18/2001 1:47 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
there is no dundant because the L. root redundare was formed from re(d)- + undare, to surge (the re- means back).
so (amending byb's point), is there an "undant"?
|
|
|
#44711
10/18/2001 1:48 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>Is the use archaic?
hmm... I suppose, a bit.
1871 Browning "Fined and thrice refined I' the crucible of life."
|
|
|
#44712
10/18/2001 1:58 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
[btw, disgruntle uses dis- as an intensifier]
Thus, dis- serves to intensify in some cases, and to negative in others -- diametrically opposite functions.
I find that very intriguing. tsuwm, any notion how that evolved?
|
|
|
#44713
10/18/2001 2:18 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
With verbs having already a sense of division, solution, separation, or undoing, the addition of dis- was naturally intensive, ‘away, out and out, utterly, exceedingly’, as in disperire to perish utterly, dispudere to be utterly ashamed, distædere to be utterly wearied or disgusted; hence it became an intensive in some other verbs, as dilaudare to praise exceedingly, discupere to desire vehemently, dissuaviri to kiss ardently. In the same way, English has several verbs in which dis- adds intensity to words having already a sense of undoing, as in disalter, disaltern, disannul.
and so, words with an already negative sense, as disgruntle, disabuse [not in the usual sense, but Scot., to mar, spoil, misuse.]
{and that makes disabuse one of those enantiodromic words}
|
|
|
#44714
10/18/2001 1:57 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
>Is the use archaic?
hmm... I suppose, a bit
I would say no. Fine gold, for example, is understood as (re)fined metal. Also, fine(s) as a description of particulate material is quite common in the building trade about aggregates - if you specified "crusher run including fines" it would be all-in ballast from sand upwards, contrasting to say a grade of crushed rock like "½-inch to 3-inch".
|
|
|
#44715
10/18/2001 2:19 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
...but we're having to do, specifically, with the verb fine in this sense, mav. the Browning quote is the *latest citation in OED2. refine seems to have been deemed the... more perfect word.
|
|
|
#44716
10/18/2001 5:51 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
....between verbs and nouns, and all! huh!
|
|
|
#44717
10/18/2001 7:00 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
oh, there's a list someone could start: verb forms that have gone obsolete while the noun hasn't. and verse vice'.
|
|
|
#44718
10/18/2001 7:11 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
verb forms that have gone obsolete while the noun hasn't. and verse vice'.
Then we could revive the disused portion and get accused of verbing nouns or nouning verbs.
|
|
|
#44719
10/18/2001 7:52 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>Then we could revive the disused portion and get accused of verbing nouns or nouning verbs. oh, that happens to me all the time!
|
|
|
#44720
10/18/2001 8:01 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
When I was just a kid, I used to go into Alexandria, VA on the bus to wander around town in the summertime. One of my favorite haunts was the courtroom of Nicholas J. Colosanto, who was probably 5 feet tall, swarthy, and a real riot on the bench. One day a regular "customer" got his usual $15 fine for drunk and disorderly, but apparently his hangover got the better of him. He ran from the courtroom, screaming, "I'm not paying the fine, you spaghetti-eating SOB." The bailiffs brought him back and Nick gave him another $25 fine for contempt of court, and admonished him, "Had you been chaste and refined, you would not have been chased and refined." I was 13 or so, and I was the only one in the courtroom who laughed. Which resulted in an invitation from the judge for iced tea at the local lawyer hangout around the corner after court was over.
Sadly, some years later, Nick was assassinated in the front door of his house when he answered a knock at the door. The murder was never solved.
TEd
|
|
|
#44721
10/18/2001 8:10 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
geez teD, you need to warn us... ...when you go back to the original subject.
|
|
|
#44722
10/19/2001 8:22 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771 |
> Nicholas [J.] Colosanto
I haven't IMDBed it, but as I recall that was also the name of the guy who played "Coach" on Cheers (although the J is questionable). Any relation, do you know?
|
|
|
#44723
10/22/2001 4:12 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I spent some time reading the dictionary over the weekend and came up with the following list of words in which re- is used as an intensifier. If you would quibble you have ample opportunity with this list as most of them do not have corresponding re-less words.
rebel
rebuke
receive
recite
reconnoiter
record
recruit
recuse
redact*
refer
refine
refrigerate
refuge
refuse
regale
regard
regret
reinforce
relate
relax
relieve
rely
remain
remark
remedy
renegade/renege
repel
repine
repose
reprehend
repress
reprimand
reprove
repugn
require
research
resent
resist
resolve
retain
reveal
revere
revile
reward.
*In this case the prefix is red- but that is a Latin alternate where the d serves some phonetic function.
|
|
|
#44724
10/22/2001 4:14 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
The first citation for iterate in the OED is from 1533, the first for reiterate from 1526.
|
|
|
#44725
10/22/2001 4:27 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Far be it from be to go off-topic, but.
How many of y'all actually® *read the dictionary? I look up a word, my eyes hit another word, I read that entry, I see something else, I read that, and as often as not, I forget what I was looking up. But I don't sit down and *read* a dictionary.
the day Faldage starts reading the phone book is when I'll really start to worry.....
|
|
|
#44726
10/22/2001 7:04 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
...starts reading the phone book...
Its worse than a russian novel.. all those characters, and no plot!
as for the dictionary, i used to sit and read it*, but i don't much do that any more.. but i do sometimes go scurring about, letting one word lead me to another. and when i get a specialty dictionary.. i do tend to sit and read it.. but i never sat and read the OED.. (to heavy to hold, and the font was to small to read with it sitting in your lap)
* i loved reading the dictionary as a child.
|
|
|
|
|
