#44379
10/12/2001 2:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1 |
I would like to know the origin or the meaning of "istan" in the names of Afghanistan or Pakistan.
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#44380
10/12/2001 3:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
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#44381
10/12/2001 5:06 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
But, even more interestingly, which country ending in -istan has an acronym for the first part of its name?
TEd
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#44382
10/15/2001 5:57 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
Easy, Pakistan. The P stands for Punjab, but I forget the rest.
Bingley
Bingley
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#44383
10/16/2001 4:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
Punjab, Afghan, and Kashmir
TEd
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#44384
10/17/2001 2:11 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872 |
Question: Why did Constantinople get the works?
Answer: _____ ________ ________ ___ ___ _____ .
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#44385
10/17/2001 3:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 328
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 328 |
Question: Why did Constantinople get the works?
Answer: _____ ________ ________ ___ ___ _____ .
That's nobody's business but the Turks'! [musical note e]
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#44386
10/18/2001 10:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
You mean "Can't Stand Your Nose Pulled"?  Blame it all on "The Fourth Form at St Michael's"
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#44387
10/18/2001 12:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Onliest thang in my junk drawer memory is Istanbul < Greek, eis ton polis, toward the city.
This would be somewhat underwhelmed by the discovery that it's been Istanbul only since 1930. But a little underwhelming ain' enough to get it out of the junk drawer, just enough to get a little flag tacked on it saying WARNING: Possibly Unreliable Information.
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#44388
10/18/2001 2:19 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Stories abound concerning this city's name. One, wrong though often repeated, is that it comes from eis ten polin, Byzantine Greek for "to the city".http://www.takeourword.com/page1.htmlEDIT: I offer this for the purpose of facilitatin' discussions only - I ain't bought the book meself
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#44389
10/18/2001 3:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Oh, great, mav, now I gots to put on a nother flag sez the grammar's all screwed up, too??
Well, maybe I won't take their word for it.
But wait, they can sell me a book sez they're right! I *gots to bleeve them!
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#44390
10/18/2001 6:01 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
maybe I won't take their word for it.
join the club - see page 4!
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#44391
10/19/2001 11:52 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393 |
I too thought Istanbul was from the eis... phrase, but the Constantinople origin is fine by me. The change exhibits a number of features common to Modern Greek: loss of initial syllable (e.g. vrisko from ancient heurisko:), voicing of voiceless stops after a nasal, and (in the older form Stamboul) assimilation of the nasal. In Modern Greek ton polis is pronounced tom bolis.
The initial I (with a dot on it) is Turkish, which does not tolerate some initial clusters, and uses the i to make them pronounceable: so 'sterling' is isterlin.
Afterthought.
If Persian ostan (which by the way is the name of some of the internal divisions of Iran) is from the IE root 'stand' then it's probably related to state, from the Latin, and to the English stead 'place' as in homestead, bedstead, Hampstead, instead, and steadfast.
In German, Staat 'state' is presumably from Latin while Stadt 'city' is the native Germanic reflex, corresponding to English stead and Icelandic -stadhur.
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#44392
10/19/2001 1:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
the Constantinople origin is fine by NicholasW.
Some interesting comments, NW. I am relatively ignorant of the linguistic history of the region, but might wonder if the sound changes in Greek have that much influence, here. Turkish I'll buy readily, but, given my ignorance, perhaps too readily. Would you care to shine the flashlight of linguistics on the footprints of this poor Fool's ignorance?
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#44393
10/19/2001 2:47 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393 |
Well I don't know the history of mediaeval Greek, but I'm guessing that the classical Greek name Konstantinopolis had changed to Stanbul in the Greek of 1453. The Turks then adopted this unchanged except for their insertion of the epenthetic i, and it has not changed in Turkish since.
The form 'Stamboul' formerly seen sometimes in English suggests the assimilation of nb to mb took place later in Greek, because if it was already Stambul in 1453 it would have been adopted as Istambul into Turkish. The Turkish cluster nb only makes sense if that's what it was when they borrowed it.
Now losing an initial syllable is easy, and so is dropping an ending. What remains is to explain how Stantinopol became Stanbul.
(Note names like Stavropol in Crimea, which to me looks obviously Greek, with loss of the ending. Was it a Greek colony conquered by the Russians at a time when -polis had become -pol?)
We stress the -NOP- but the loss of the -O- shows the stress was elsewhere in the Greek. Stantinopol became Stantinpol, perhaps losing two unstressed syllables to become Stantnpol. Obviously that awkward cluster -ntn- would reduce, giving Stanpol.
The voicing change giving Stanbol is a regular feature of modern Greek, and this shows it had already taken place by 1453.
Then I award myself one free sound change to get the u. Of course I'm making all this up as I go along, but it's a consistent story that fits all the facts I know. I expect something like this happened.
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#44394
10/19/2001 3:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Of course I'm making all this up as I go along, but it's a consistent story that fits all the facts I know.
Hey, sounds good to me. Might even eject that other one from my junk drawer. And I gots no probs with that o ==> u.
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#44395
10/19/2001 8:49 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
If St. Botolf's Town can become Boston anything's possible!
TEd
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#44396
10/22/2001 5:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
If St. Botolf's Town can become Boston
Or Eboracum York.
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#44397
10/24/2001 5:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Or Eboracum York.Or Lutetia Paris. 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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