#42578
09/21/2001 9:35 PM
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old hand
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I think one of the most annoying parts of learning a foreign language is figuring out the gender of all the words and thus the articles that go with them. How did genders come about for nouns? French and Spanish have a rather understandable two, masculine and feminine, but then German throws in a third, neuter. I'm not too familiar with French and Spanish, but German also changes the article depending on the tense of the word: "der" for main noun, "den" for direct object, "dem for indirect object. And that's just the masculine definite article. Throw in the other genders and the indefinite articles and German has about 15 different articles.
English, on the other hand, though so closely related to German, has just three simple articles, "the", "a" and "an". Why the vast difference between so similar languages? And why, when English phonetics are so confusing, are the indefinite articles based on whether the word starts with a vowel or a consonant?
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#42579
09/21/2001 10:59 PM
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#42580
09/22/2001 5:18 AM
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JazzO, your question was obviously serious, but, as MaxQ has pointed out, somewhat facetiously, it requires many words or none. Here's a good place to start: http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/hel/hel.htmlI remember a Playboy article from the 1970s sometime dealt specifically with the origins of "a/an", but that was a long time ago. And before you all leap down my throat about Playboy, let me tell you that in the early days, the articles were written by every good author then writing and the pictures were, um, not very good. Now it seems to be the other way around. And if any of you has a complete collection of early Playboys I'd really love to hear from you. I'm looking for a short story, I can't remember by whom, called Superboy's School Days or something like that. It was absolutely hilarious. I photocopied it but have since lost it. It was a marvellous spoof, written in Southern dialect. 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#42581
09/22/2001 12:09 PM
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Roughly when was the article, Capt'n? If you recall enough about it to be able to search out the date, I may be able to find it for you.
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#42582
09/22/2001 12:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Cap,
I'm sure you're correct about the quality of writing in Mr. Hefner's mag but, assuming we are roughly contemporaries, you were about 14 years old during that golden era: I have to commend you, you were a far more avid reader than was I.
Jazz,
To the extent you may have been for real: a hut, an 'ommage; an ef-15; an spoken language.
German has three definite articles and three (?--omygod, and I used to speak it!) cases and this allows for all sorts of fun word orders.
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#42583
09/22/2001 5:11 PM
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I agree with you Jazz. It can be confusing when learning an other language. Here, because 90% of the population is French, we often have English people trying to learn the language.
The genders of things is one of the major problems they have since there is no obvious reason why a thing is a she or a he. Why *would a table be a she and a desk a he?
What makes it worse is that all your verb tenses have to be conjugated accordingly (adding 'e' when feminine) - like if we don't have enough verb tenses to contend with.
Playboy
I agree with you there Cap. The fiction and sci-fi used to be really top-notch. I know a lot of sci-fi greats got their big break by writing for Playboy.
Now don't all get in a tizzy about me knowing this. Keep in mind that French people tend to have a different view of about sexuality in general. My mom used to give my dad a subscription to Playboy as birthday gift ever year - until the quality of the articles dropped off and he decided not to get it anymore.
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#42584
09/22/2001 8:52 PM
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The situation is more complicated and nonsensical than you think, Jazz.
For openers, English did at one time have three genders, like German, to which it was similar, but that was Old English, or Anglo-Saxon, which was spoken in England up to the Norman Conquest.
To give you an idea of what it was like: OE had 3 genders (masc., fem. & neuter), 5 cases (nominative, genetive, dative, accusative and instrumental) and 2 numbers, sing. & plural. Nouns had two full declensions (employing all the above) some of which had more than one form, and some partial ones which are mostly exceptions to the regular declensions. All this means that there were hundreds of possible forms a noun (or adjective) could take in being declined, many of which were, of course, the same. The definite article ("the" in modern English) and indefinite article (a, an in ME) were also declined. Verbs were a whole other story, even more complicated.
This is the same story with all ancient European languages in the Indo-European family.. Latin and Greek have the same 3 genders; and gender, except when applied to people or animals, has nothing to do with sex. Obviously, a word for "bull" in any language is masculine and "cow" is feminine. Beyond that, however, grammatical gender is something not well understood. C.S. Lewis, a philologist of note, alluded to this and had no explanations.
As the Western European languages developed, they took on different paths. Most of the Romance Languages, derived from Latin, dropped the neuter gender and wound up with everything being either masculine or feminine. German retained the neuter. German has a peculiarity -- any word with either of the diminutive suffixes "chen" or "lein" is automatically neuter gender. Hence a "Mädchen" (little girl) or Bübchen (little boy) or a Fräulein (young woman, literally little wife) is neuter gender and is, correctly, referred to as "it" if a pronoun is needed for the noun.
What's more, there isn't agreement on gender between the Romance Languages and others. In Italian, French, Spanish, etc. "moon" is feminine and "sun" is masculine; in German it's the other way around. Similarly, Life and Death are feminine in Romance Languages, masculine and neuter, respectively, in German. I don't know about the Slavic languages, but imagine there are the same discrepancies.
Your question is a very good one, one which I have myself often ruminated on and I would also be glad to see some explanations for the mysteries of grammatical gender.
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#42585
09/23/2001 3:09 AM
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#42586
09/23/2001 4:21 AM
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Some further notes, this time about articles, which you also asked about.
Ancient Greek, both Classical and Koine, had the definite article ("the" in English), but no indefinite article (a, an). It was declined through the 3 genders and 4 cases (nominative, genitive, dative, accusative), singular and plural. In the nominative case, the definite article is Ho (m.) He (f. - spelled with eta, long 'e'), To (n., spelled with omicron, short 'o') in the singular; Hoi, Hai, Ta is the plural. Since there is no indefinite article, it has to be supplied from the context when translating into English.
Latin has no articles, definite or indefinite, so "the" and "a/an" have to supplied when translating. In the rare cases where it is necessary to verbally point out someone or something, "ille" = that, that one, is used where we would use "THE" (with an emphasis). And there are words for "a certain (person, thing)" and such expressions, which were used where we use the indefinite article.
It is another mystery why the Romance languages should have followed Greek and adopted definite articles, along with indefinite articles, when Latin, their mother language had neither. German, of course, did the same, although the German definite article (Der, Die, Das) is unlike the Romance articles (el, il, le, la, l'..., les, los, las, etc.) Russian (and, I presume the other Slavic languages) followed Latin in that it has no articles either. Romanian (a Romance language surrounded by Slavic tongues) has a peculiarity with the definite article. It places it as a suffix on its noun. In the Romanian translation of the famous Socialist motto "Proletarii munduli, Unitivi!" (Proletarians of the world, unite!), the article "ul" is attached to mundo (world) and declined in the genitive singular masculine.
So don't feel bad about the "annoyance" of having to learn those various forms in Spanish. You'd be having it 10 times as bad if you studied German, Old English, Latin and Ancient Greek, as I can attest from personal experience.
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#42587
09/23/2001 4:31 AM
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old hand
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old hand
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So don't feel bad about the "annoyance" of having to learn those various forms in Spanish
I don't. I studied German.
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#42588
09/23/2001 4:35 AM
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In reply to your last question, why we have 'a' or 'an' depending on whether the following noun starts with a vowel or a consonant, it's simply a matter of ease of pronunciation as well as how it sounds. Try eliminating "an" and using 'a' exclusively when speaking (recite or read something to hear yourself). When the following word starts with an vowel (or an 'h') there has to be a very slight hesitation between the two and it sounds gulping or breathy. That's why the 'n' is inserted (and creates 'an'); it makes the words flow smoothly without the hesitation or huffing sound you otherwise get, like when we use 'a' before an aspirated 'h'. ('An' was often used before 'h' in Elizabethan English -- see the Biblical verse referring to "an house not made with hands", but the practice was later dropped.) So its not a matter of grammar, syntax, derivation or philology -- just a practical matter of euphony.
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#42589
09/23/2001 11:27 AM
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The "n" of "an" has sometimes migrated over time to the noun. Perhaps oversimplifying a bit:
an apron became a napron, which became a napkin.
To the ear, an apron and a napron would sound almost exactly alike.
Another example is the word "eke", but no in the sense with is, today, its almost-exclusive usage (to eke out a living). Using it older sense:
a shortened name = an eke name, which became a nekename, which became a nickname
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#42590
09/23/2001 11:55 PM
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journeyman
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journeyman
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<green> Now don't all get in a tizzy about me knowing this. Keep in mind that French people tend to have a different view about sexuality in general.</green>
Hmmm....is that a different view about sexuality, or about women? French women don't whistle at a good looking men walking down the street. The French don't fequently display men's bodies publically as objects of desire, lust and endless fascination.
Be careful what you call "sexuality."
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#42591
09/23/2001 11:57 PM
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Posts: 60
journeyman
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journeyman
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Now don't all get in a tizzy about me knowing this. Keep in mind that French people tend to have a different view about sexuality in general.
Hmmm....is that a different view about sexuality, or about women? French women don't whistle at a good looking men walking down the street. The French don't frequently display men's bodies publically as objects of desire, lust and endless fascination.
Be careful what you call "sexuality."
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#42592
09/24/2001 5:13 AM
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Jazzo, you're getting off comparatively lightly. From David Crystal's The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language (page 91):
Distinctions such as masculine/feminine and human/non-human are well known in setting up sub-classes of nouns, because of their widespread use in European languages. But many Indo-Pacific and African languages far exceed these in the number of noun classes they recognize. In Bantu languages, for example, we find such noun classes as human beings, growing things, body parts, liquids, inanimate objects, animals, kinship names, abstract ideas, artefacts, and narrow objects.
However, these labels should be viewed with caution, as they are no more exact symantically than are the gender classes of European languages.
Bingley
Bingley
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#42593
09/24/2001 7:48 AM
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<green> Now don't all get in a tizzy about me knowing this. Keep in mind that French people tend to have a different view about sexuality in general.</green>
Hmmm....is that a different view about sexuality, or about women? French women don't whistle at a good looking men walking down the street. The French don't fequently display men's bodies publically as objects of desire, lust and endless fascination.
Be careful what you call "sexuality."
Now, while I don't try to set myself up as any kind of expert on the subject of sexuality, I must defend Bel here on a matter of pure logic. She was talking attitudes, you are talking actions. Not the same thing at all! I bet Bel doesn't have to whistle ... 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#42594
09/24/2001 1:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 60
journeyman
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journeyman
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In Bantu languages, for example, we find such noun
classes as human beings, growing things, body parts, liquids, inanimate objects, animals, kinship names,
abstract ideas, artefacts, and narrow objects. However, these labels should be viewed with caution, as they are no more exact symantically than are the gender classes of European languages.
Fascinating! It brought to mind the distinction in the traditional medicine of many cultures between "hot" and "cold" foods, which has nothing to do with temperature or capsaicin content.
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#42595
09/24/2001 1:36 PM
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3 genders (masc., fem. & neuter), 5 cases (nominative, genetive, dative, accusative and instrumental) and 2 numbers, sing. & plural
It's not even *that simple. There was an occasionally used dual number sandwiched in between singular and plural. It even had its own set of pronouns.
As for "natural" gender in English, The simple word for woman, wif, was neuter and the compound word, wifman (later to be worn down to our Modern English woman), following the Germanic rule of compound words taking the gender of the final element, was masculine.
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#42596
09/24/2001 2:58 PM
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That's why the 'n' is inserted (and creates 'an')
Actually® the n was there first and was lost through elision before words starting with a consonant sound (it's even harder to say "an book" than it is to say "a apple"; witness the fact that "a" is the onliest indefinite article in many dialects). The indefinite article was derived from the word for the number 1.
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#42597
09/24/2001 5:11 PM
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There was an occasionally used dual number sandwiched in between singular and plural. It even had its own set of pronouns.
There's also a dual plural in Hebrew, though to the best of of my limited knowledge it has only one common use. My understanding is:
Normal plurals, meaning "two or more" are formed by adding a suffix, the masculine form of which is pronounced -eem (usually transliterated as -im). The obscure suffix meaning "precisely two" is -ayeem, and is used as below.
In English the preposition behind (behind the table} is also used as a noun [get your behind moving). In Hebrew the equivalent preposition, "tachat", is also pressed into service to mean that same noun -- but the nominative form is tachatayeem.
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#42598
09/26/2001 9:30 PM
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Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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>assuming we are roughly contemporaries, you were about 14 years old during that golden era: I have to commend you, you were a far more avid reader than was I. Yes, I'm with inselpeter, if I get his gist, I think that you are thinking of the wrong kind of articles. Come on you guys reading Playboy as a fourteen year old boy, pull the other one!
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#42599
09/27/2001 3:47 PM
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I just read the an apron became a napron, which became a napkin part. Actually® it started out as a napron and the n migrated over to the a. A napron is a big one and a napkin is a little one.
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#42600
09/27/2001 3:51 PM
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Well, [silent Harrumph®] I, for one, never *read Playboy when I was 14!!!  I just looked at the pictures.
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#42601
09/27/2001 4:04 PM
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arpon / napron / napkin
Faldage is right - rechecking my source shows that my recall was wrong, but suggests a longer story.
My source indicates that English took the Old French word naperon (= "little tablecloth") but used it for the larger covering; later the phrase for that large covering changed from "a napron" to "an apron". That source does not indicate, however, how English got "napkin" for the small covering.
Faldage, can you help further?
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#42602
09/27/2001 5:05 PM
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how English got "napkin" for the small covering.
I allus thought -on was an augmentive suffix , so I dunno if you're gone believe me. Without consulting the discredited AHD I'd say that the nap part was the root and meant something like hunk of cloth with a protective function against food and the -kin was just the good old English diminutive suffix.
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#42603
09/27/2001 6:05 PM
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addict
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I'm wondering about situations where the gender of a noun changes its meaning or sense. Spanish has a few words that can take either gender in their article. The only one that comes to mind is mar, the word for "sea," which is usually a masculine noun but is sometimes considered a feminine noun when used in more literary language, and in some idiomatic expressions.
A twist on this is adjectives that only take one gender's ending - an example being the Italian word figo which means "cool," as in "way cool pocket OED, dude" but is only ever given the masculine ending - ending it in an "a" changes it to a noun, and an obscene anatomical reference at that.
Are there cases like this in other languages, where switching the gender can greatly change the meaning?
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#42604
09/27/2001 6:34 PM
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The only one that comes to mind is mar, the word for "sea,"...Are there cases like this in other languages?
IIRC, The German word See means "sea" (as in one of the reputed Seven) when it is one gender (masc?) and "the ocean" (as in the one big one) when another (fem?). Can a better German speaker than I confirm/deny this? Jazzo, it was you wot started the thread...
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#42605
09/27/2001 6:55 PM
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There's other examples from Spanish but I can't think of any.
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#42606
09/27/2001 7:03 PM
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Faldage's inability to think of another example somehow helped me think of another example:
la radio = radio
el radio = radius
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#42607
09/27/2001 8:50 PM
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old hand
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The German word See means "sea" (as in one of the reputed Seven) when it is one gender (masc?) and "the ocean" (as in the one big one) when another (fem?).From http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa042098.htm it appears that der See is lake and die See is ocean.
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#42608
09/28/2001 1:21 PM
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nap still has a meaning related to cloth.. Nap is most evident in velvet, or other textured cloth. If you run your hand on velvet, one way is smooth, the other way, (against the nap) you "fight" the smooth texture.
when making a garment, you want to make sure all the peices have the nap running in the same direction.
since nap reflects light differently, the pieces can appear to be different colors if you don't.
for a very long time, it was common to run nap down, that is, if you smoothed a velvet dress starting from the shoulder the hem, you were going with the nap. Nowday, it has become a style to run the nap up.
In Californian, (and NY) velvet dresses with nap running up are called "feel me up dresses" .(girl talk!)
nap is less notable in machine manufactured cloth, with a few exceptions like velvet, and some crepes. in hand woven cloth, any type weave can have a distinct nap. Woolens and silks are more likely to have naps than plant based cloth. so Nap is a term that has to do with how a peice of fabric lies..
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#42609
09/28/2001 5:44 PM
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An example of confused gender is the Italian word mano = hand. It is declined as if masculine (singular mano, plural mani), but it is actually feminine gender; it takes the feminine form of the articles and any adjectives are declined feminine. As: la mano rossa, le mani rosse. Then there is ala = wing, which is feminine and declined as feminine in the singular but takes the masculine form in the plural, as in the famous operatic aria, L'amor sull'ali rosee.
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#42610
09/29/2001 3:21 AM
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In reply to:
nap still has a meaning related to cloth
Diapers are usually known as nappies in the UK. Presumably related somehow.
Bingley
Bingley
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#42611
10/01/2001 11:03 AM
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addict
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An example of confused gender
and continuing the discussion from I&A on confusion of posters' gender*, (Hyla, Keiva, et al) I too have made this error. In my case, I think it is because I associate names ending in the letter "A" with females (Anna, Belinda, Melissa, and others). In particular there are male names which are feminised by the addition of an "A", Robert to Roberta, Robin to Robina, for example. Spanish (and the other Latin languages I think) has examples of words where the masculine form ends in an "O" and the feminine in an "A" - el niño, la niña. So this linguistic prejudice of mine overflows into board handles I'm afraid.
*posters' gender. Is that correct, each poster presumably having only one gender, or should that be "posters' genders" anyway?
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#42612
10/01/2001 11:43 AM
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Apologies for any confusion my board-name engendered. I trust my postings have clarified.
(BTW, Keiva was the everyday nickname of my grandfather, for whom I was named.)
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#42613
10/01/2001 12:17 PM
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addict
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Keiva offers apologies for any confusion his board-name engendered
Oh I don't think you need apologise, Ken. Firstly, the fault is ours (or at least mine in thought) and secondly, misunderstandings of gender are the basis of many a good farce. I was just trying to place a linguistic basis for the confusion.
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#42614
10/01/2001 9:12 PM
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Consuelo is one of the irregularities in Spanish. It is a feminine name derived from a verb, as opposed to a noun i.e, Rosa-rose, Concha-shell, or a saint. The verb is consolar, to console. El consuelo n. is what you get from the act of consoling, consolation. It is an act of comforting, accepting that commiseration and a sharing of strength are necessary to one's well-being. Although I know that there must be men out there that are good at consolation, it seems that most women have a greater facility with it, whether it be kissing boo-boos or holding a grief-stricken friend. Men tend to want to fix the problems rather than share the feelings. [running fast to escape flying vegetables-e] Hah! You missed me!
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#42615
10/02/2001 12:10 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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<<Concha-shell,
That would be Conchita, which I was called an Argentinian girlfriend in fun. "What did you call me?!!" she said as she slapped my face in fun. For it means something other than shell in Usuaia. [running to escape the flying cut fig-e]
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#42616
10/02/2001 12:20 AM
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Well, alright! In Mexico, Conchita is a conchita, no more, no less. Believe me, I learned all my "bad words" from artists, musicians, and college students(remember, adventure is my middle name?). However, I am aware that each spanish speaking culture has their own dialectic naughties, and I can see how conchita leaves itself wide open for that![ducks even lower-flying oysters?!]
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#42617
10/02/2001 12:25 AM
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Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
conchita leaves itself wide open for ...
I dasn't comment; I merely report, in a blue note.
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