#42255
09/19/2001 2:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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A place for articles. Emails received regarding US response/position
A sobering essay forwarded by a UC Berkeley professor:
Dear Gary (and whoever else is on this email thread-)
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York.
I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When
you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to
do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of
international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan
people have not overthrown the Taliban.
We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done.
The Soviets took care of it already.
Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine
and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban?
Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't
even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing.
Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.
So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die
fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of
Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by?
You see where I'm going.
We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West. And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the West. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours.
Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
Tamim Ansary
Tamim Ansary is an Afghani-American writer.
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#42256
09/19/2001 6:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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...Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
Which is precisely why a surgical extraction of the specific person(s) is necessary... yet, unfortunately, that reality will be lost in the "emotional revenge".
There is *nothing wrong with an emotional response, just one that is *purely emotional...(JMO)...
... you're about to get {another} one. Let me state, however, I am 'beotching' about the "tone of the discussion, not the opinions of others in the following:
I was sickened by last night's PBS Chicago Tonight sponsored "discussion" of what a military campaign may be, not because of what answers were given to that question, but because of how shallow the arguments and their tone became... they had a slight hint of "if I talk louder, my facts have more meaning".
A political representative, a retired General, a Afghan-American writer, and a representative from the Muslim-American (trade?)community were present. They all seem to have different perspectives as are indicative of what they DO, and I have to applaud the coordinator Phil Ponce for his control of the direction of the discussion, with his usual skill. However, when an attempt was made by the Afghan-American writer to explain the mindset of the Afghan people whether they be Afghan government or religious representatives, in Afghan as rebels, part of the Taliban (is there a difference), or just a "commmon" Afghan/Muslim citizen, that the sense of honor they feel is deep, and trying to relate a sense of understanding of what would go on in their minds in deciding what, why, how, where...etc to "hand over" bin liner (Thanks Mav)... the response from the "political representative" sounded like... "yeh, but our honor is bigger than their honor".
What we truly need are more "real" people and less politicians talking about this through the mass media... Countless times we have seen these kinds of debilitating words *happen before...
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#42257
09/20/2001 12:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 275
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 275 |
wow
Thank you for posting that e-mail. It is one of the most thoughtful piece among the many that have been circulating lately.
It is someone using words in a very meticulous way, to inform , to enlighten, to commiserate.
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#42258
09/20/2001 2:23 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
WOW, thank you, thank you, and thanks to the writer of that article. I already knew a good bit of what he says, but it makes the situation of the Afghanis perfectly clear and lays out in the starkest terms what is really going on and what is at stake. I hope to God that this information is before those who are in the process of making decisions and that they are giving due attention to it.
It may be that the right way to root out bin Laden and the Taliban will have to be by ground troops airdropped or something (if the Pakistanis don't cooperate) and that will mean terrible American casualties, since it's a notoriously inhospitable place, as the Brits and Russians learned to their cost. So those who are now crying, "War is hell," meaning, "Too bad, it will have to be hell on the Afghans", will learn that it will be hell on us as well, maybe more so. But it has to be done -- there will never be any security any more, ever, if it isn't. (This presuming that bin Laden really is the culprit, for which the proof is not yet forthcoming, but which I also believe is the case.)
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#42259
09/20/2001 7:24 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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In today's email edition of Armed Forces News : Officials Warn Against Solicitation Scams Consumer advocacy groups are warning against mass e-mails soliciting donations for survivors of the attacks in New York and on the Pentagon. A typical message might contain the phrases "Express Relief Fund" or "Victims Survivor Fund." The Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial E-mail, a non-profit consumer protection group, said, "Virtually no bona-fide relief agencies request funds by sending e-mail to people who are not already involved in that agency." DoD officials recommend that individuals wishing to make donations to survivors of those killed in the attack on the Pentagon contact the following: Army Emergency Relief Society, Pentagon Victims Fund, (703) 325-0463, http://www.aerhq.org Navy and Marine Corps Relief Society, Pentagon Assistance Fund, (703) 696-4904, http://www.nmcrs.org Federal Employee Education and Assistance Fund, (303) 933-7580, http://www.feea.org.
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#42262
09/21/2001 7:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Hey IP, I've seen some sad sites in my time, but this one ... 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#42263
09/21/2001 9:52 PM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636 |
IP, did you check out this site in it's entirety? I did! What a complete HOOT! Thanks.
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#42264
09/21/2001 10:02 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Consuelo,
!?como no?! -- !por nada!
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#42265
09/22/2001 4:03 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 4,189 |
Thanks for that E-mail, wow. It really provides a very lucid account of what we're up against, and about the poor, helpless people who always get caught up as war fodder on the no-man's-land of these conflicts.
The saddest thing is, I really believe, that the karma of war precipitates further war, maybe not immediately, but decades or generations hence. For instance, bin Laden was incited to action by the Gulf War. And, unbelievably, but understandably, there's still the ancient residue of the so-called "Crusades." And, of course, the losses of war wreak havoc on the emotions and psyches of individuals creating a cycle of parental dysfunction that produces children who become driven, unbalanced "leaders". "War...what is it good for?...absolutely nothing."
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#42266
09/23/2001 9:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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You were all so kind about other post you've gone and encouraged me  so I pass along another Email received the other day: (Quote:) The writer of the following piece is Kent Madin, part-owner of Boojum Expeditions who leads trips to Mongolia and other far-flung places. He wrote from Boojum Expeditions, Khovsgol Lodge Management somewhere in Mongolia. He is obviously a creative thinker! Perhaps the spirit of the proposal will find its way into the larger public debate. --------------------------- Bomb Them with Butter A military response, particularly an attack on Afghanistan, is exactly what the terrorists want. It will strengthen and swell their small but fanatical ranks. Instead, bomb Afghanistan with butter, with rice, bread, clothing and medicine. It will cost less than conventional arms, poses no threat of US casualties and just might get the populace thinking that maybe the Taliban don't have the answers. After three years of drought and with starvation looming, let's offer the Afghani people the vision of a new future. One that includes full stomachs. Bomb them with information. Video players and cassettes of world leaders, particularly Islamic leaders, condemning terrorism. Carpet the country with with magazines and newspapers showing the horror of terrorism committed by their "guest." Blitz them with laptop computers and DVD players filled with a perspective that is denied them by their government. Saturation bombing-with-hope will mean that some of it gets through. Send so much that the Taliban can't collect and hide it all. The Taliban are telling their people to prepare for Jihad. Instead, let's give the Afghani people their first good meal in years. Seeing your family fully fed and the prospect of stability in terms of food and a future is a powerful deterrent to martyrdom. All we ask in return is that they, as a people, agree to enter the civilized world. That includes handing over terrorists in their midst. In responding to terrorism we need to do something different; something unexpected..something that addresses the root of the problem. We need to take away the well of despair, ignorance and brutality from which the Osama bin Laden's of the world water their gardens of terror. (end quote)
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#42267
09/23/2001 9:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 5,400 |
Shades of the Berlin Air lift..
a good idea. Yes, it could work. our enemy is not the afganistani people.
today's magazine section of the NY times, Caleb Carr suggest the problem is modern day luddites. or as was sung in US, after WWI, "How do you keep them down on the farm, after they have seen Paree?"
The Taliban wants to turn back the hands of time. they can't but, they are willing to die trying. It might be, with information, the people of afganistan, will chose not to be part of the modern world. (China made that decision once, and so did Japan) we can't be sure, given choices, they will chose the modern way.
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#42268
09/23/2001 11:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Bomb them with information. ... Blitz them with laptop computers and DVD players filled with a perspective that is denied them by their government.
Wonderfully creative idea -- the above particular detail reminiscent of the ending of the most recent Tom Clancy novel, as I recall.
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#42269
09/24/2001 4:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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If you want to send the Butter Bomb approach- or any other note - to your Representative or Senator, here's a link with all the Email addresses by state: http://www.webslingerz.com/jhoffman/congress-email.htmlNote: the addresses are case sensitive
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#42270
09/24/2001 6:19 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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wow:
On the surface it sounds very good, but the reality may be something else.
1. The Taliban will merely tell the recipients that the USA is paying them tribute in the form of food, etc., for the people of Aghansitan, which will further entrench them in power.
2. In the region Afghanistan has the lowest literacy rate (somewhere around 1/3 as opposed to 42 percent for Pakistan and almost 100 percent in the other countries thereabouts. Even Iran has 73 percent literacy. But that literacy is probably concentrated in the cities. Out in the country I would expect literacy to be so small that even widely distributed leaflets would only be evaluated in terms of their suitability for toilet tissue.
3. Laptop computers will only last as long as the batteries, and there are no 7-11s to buy more. Hell, there isn't electricity service in most of the country. And the Taliban will merely enforce a death penalty for possession of anything like that, saying it's an attempt to proselytize the people away from the Islamic faith and that the stuff is the work of the devil.
4. Though probably impossible to quantify, one has to accept the reality that the Afghanis may not want a world of TVs, department stores, swimming pools, autombiles. I like my lifestyle, and I wouldn't like theirs at all, but they may very well not seek to attain the material things that predominate elsewhere.
Notwithstanding, I think the risk is worth taking, particularly with food and medicine. I was horrified to see that the infant mortality rate is 16.7 percent. ONE in six dies during infancy. And one woman in 60 dies in childbirth. One child in four lives beyond the age of five in Afhanistan. That's abysmal. One website I looked at implied that there are, in the entire country, no reliable sources of safe water, including in the major cities, of which there are about six.
Certainly anything we can do to help their plight is humanitarian in nature, but I fear that the Taliban will turn our own good works against us.
TdE
TEd
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#42271
09/24/2001 10:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
If anyone is looking for information about Afghanistan (or any other country), then a (surprisingly) good source of up to date demographic information is given in the CIA World Factbook http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/. I have used it regularly for to help with school homework assignments and the information is significantly more up to date than information found in the local library. I would give the same warnings about the bias of information as I would from any source and I'm sure that it is possible to pull out innacuaracies and inconsistencies. Each country is listed alphabetically and data is the same for each country, so it is possible to compare demographic (such as population size and life expectancy) and economic information (such as exports). The site does include military information that I am surprised is made available to the public but information from the site seems to appear in a slightly modified form in several other websites. Is anyone aware of other sites with similar levels of information? Has anyone found any major innacuracies in the site? Jo Post Script (to save taking this thread up to the top) http://www.webarchivist.orgThis is an archive site relating to the events of September 11th. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1589000/1589076.stm
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#42272
09/25/2001 12:59 AM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 2,636 |
I, too, like the idea of "butter bombs". They are simply more life-affirming than the other kind. I also recognize the truth in the maxim "No good deed goes unpunished." Would that the same were true for bad deeds.
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#42273
09/25/2001 5:13 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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I suggested in another post over a week ago that the US should Marshall Plan Afghanistan rather than bomb it!
Mumble - mumble - mumble ...
... and they could use the crop dusters that the kneejerk kings in Washington has just put out of business according to this morning's news. They'll be banning the use of cars in case they're used to make car bombs and the use of reservoirs because somebody might drop a chemical agent in them next. Talk about paranoia!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#42274
09/25/2001 10:33 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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WEED: the kneejerk king in Washington... paranoia
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#42275
09/25/2001 3:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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