#41972
09/17/2001 1:36 PM
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stranger
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Hey, do any of you word whizzes out there know what this word means? I ran across it while reading an essay on metaphysics by Nicholas Rescher. In the essay he repeatedly refers to the "hylarchic principle". I looked it up in a number of dictionaries, but found nothing. I still haven't checked out the OED at my library, but I thought I'd see if anyone here might be able to tell me first. Thanks!
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#41973
09/17/2001 1:42 PM
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I think it's an order of tree frog.
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#41975
09/17/2001 2:50 PM
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The root hyl- is from the Greek hyle meaning matter but the only words I see it in are variants of hylozoism, the doctrine that all matter has life.
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#41976
09/17/2001 3:09 PM
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there is also hylotheism, the doctrine that god and Matter are the same. but hylarchic, I believe, refers to "having a wooden head". 
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#41977
09/17/2001 4:30 PM
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I went back and painfully searched the text until I found the word. Don't ask me what it means. But for a guess it is something about the importance which we attribute to matter.
Then in
Metaphysics: what difficulties concerning entity in abstract, substantial
forms, hylarchic principles, plastic natures, substance and accident,
principle of individuation, possibility of Matter’s thinking, origin of ideas,
the manner how two independent substances so widely different as Spirit
and Matter, should mutually operate on each other? what difficulties, I s
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#41978
09/17/2001 6:10 PM
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stranger
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Well, I'm not sure that that explains it a whole lot more, but I certainly do appreciate all the effort that you put into finding that out wwh.
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#41979
09/17/2001 6:25 PM
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I find one other reference, to Henry More's hylarchic principles....
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#41980
09/17/2001 6:35 PM
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Hi, joel, thanks for a question that made me laugh! We have a member here whose screen name is Hyla, and my first thought at seeing your word was that he could open a store called Hyla 'R Chic. (For non-US'ns, there's a big chain of stores called Toys R Us here.) Gee, Hyla, what would you sell?  Tsuwm, I think your first response may have hit the nail on the head. 
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#41981
09/17/2001 7:44 PM
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hylarchic, I believe, refers to "having a wooden head"
Not true, it's solid granite, with a little tunnel drilled through so you can see light if you look in my ears.
As to the true sense of the word, ignore tsuwm and his reference-dependent comrades-in-words: a hylarchic system is one in which things are organized just the way I like 'em. Sadly, it is purely theoretical.
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#41982
09/17/2001 7:52 PM
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#41983
09/17/2001 8:01 PM
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stranger
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Ok, here's a quotation from the Rescher article (On Explaining Existence) that maybe clarifies it a little, but I'm still not sure I understand the word in and of itself. According to Rescher, a hylarchic principle is one which "...grounds the existence of things not in preexisting things but rather in a functional principle of some sort--a specifically nonsubstanival state of affairs...".
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#41984
09/17/2001 9:19 PM
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Ah bon, that clears that right up then. Righto, nicely done ole chap. 
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#41985
09/17/2001 10:55 PM
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it seems we're sort of on the right track, but missing the boat (to mix metaphors); so here's OED2:
hylarchic - Obs.
[ad. Gr. *** f. *** matter + *** to rule. Cf. F. hylarchique.]
Ruling over matter.
1676 H. More Remarks Contents bvijb, Water is+suspended in Pumps+by Gravitation upwards, more expresly here explained, and at last resolved into the Hylarchick Principle. Ibid. 186 The Hylarchick Spirit of the world holds strong and entire still. 1713 Berkeley Hylas & Phil. iii. Wks. 1871 I. 355 What difficulties concerning entity in abstract, substantial forms, hylarchic principles.
So †hy"larchical a. Obs.
1676 [see hylostatical]. 1678 Cudworth Intell. Syst. i. v. 668 Some other substance besides Body, such as is self active and hylarchical, or hath a natural power of ruling over matter. 1681 H. Hallywell Melampron. 70 (T.) This hylarchical principle, or plastick nature.
The Berkeley citation is perhaps the most enlightening, as Berkeley was a philosopher who denied the existence of matter; he maintained that material objects only exist through being perceived. To the objection that, in that case, a tree would cease to exist if no one was looking at it [sound familiar?], he replied that God always perceives everything -- this, in turn, he uses as an argument for the existence of God. Ronald Knox summed this up with a limerick:
There was a young man who said, "God
Must think it exceedingly odd
If he finds that this tree
Continues to be
When there's no one about in the Quad."
Dear Sir: Your astonishment's odd;
I am always about in the Quad.
And that's why the tree
Will continue to be,
Since observed by
Yours faithfully,
GOD.
p.s. - bill, in the dialogues of Philonous and Hylas, Philonous represents Berkeley and his philosophy.
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#41986
09/17/2001 11:30 PM
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"-a specifically nonsubstanival state of affairs...".
Dear joelsephus: Is that a typo? If not, please do us a favor and define it.
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#41987
09/17/2001 11:52 PM
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'nonsubstantial' would certainly fit into this context.
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#41988
09/18/2001 12:14 AM
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journeyman
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Gee, Hyla, what would you sell?
Matter, of course.
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#41989
09/18/2001 12:20 AM
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Re tsuwm's pair of limericks: It gives me great pleasure to be able to tweak the master by proclaiming, "YART". (YCLIU, searching "Dear Sir".) "I live in hope someday to see Myself, nigh erudite as thee."
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#41990
09/18/2001 3:21 AM
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yart? or crossthread? it just doesn't matter....
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#41991
09/18/2001 4:04 PM
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a tree would cease to exist if no one was looking at it [sound familiar?]
Reminds me of a favorite variation on this theme:
"If a man is talking by himself in the forest, is he still wrong?"
And back to our regularly interrupted thread-theme:
I know some of the work of Berkeley (and I live in the city that bears his name, in CA), but mostly in summary form rather than having read it. I'm curious why Berkeley chose Hylas as one of the participants in his dialogues - he was a friend of Hercules who, whilst on a journey with the strong fella, went to a spring to get some water and was bewitched/seduced by the nymph or nymphs who lived in the spring, who were themselves bewitched by his good looks. He remained with the nymphs, lost forever to the world of mortals.
How does this history make him appropriate to take the role of the proponent of the independent existence of matter in the Berkeley dialogues? Or is the name just Berkeley's equivalent of Joe Schmoe? Or perhaps he sees Hylas' faith in the existence of matter as akin to his being entranced by the mythical nymphs? Or perhaps I should cease all the speculatin' and hand-wavin'?
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#41992
09/18/2001 11:19 PM
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Hyla, you forgot to add one important part to that:
The way I heard it is:
"If a man is talking in the forest and there is no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?"
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#41993
09/18/2001 11:36 PM
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rhetorical, of course! just look at the statement "a man talking alone in the forest.." wrong, wrong, wrong! there is plenty of work to do at home! What the hell is he doing alone in the forest.. and if he has to ask, he knows he is wrong!
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#41994
09/18/2001 11:43 PM
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Hyla, provoking us with, "If a man is talking by himself in the forest, is he still wrong?", has thrown us into hyla-anarchic chaos.
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#41995
09/19/2001 1:50 PM
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old hand
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> hyla-anarchic chaosHmmph - I thought it was hyla-rious! 
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#41996
09/19/2001 1:58 PM
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there is plenty of work to do at home! What the hell is he doing alone in the forest.
He's out there chopping wood to keep your delicate toesies warm. You gone need it to keep the stove going and all that hot food coming
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#41997
09/19/2001 3:15 PM
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La belle Marduk corrects me:
If a man is talking in the forest and there is no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?
Inspires some little thoughts:
1. I knew I hadn't gotten it quite right, and I appreciate having the correct text.
b. In writing it, I was a man typing alone at my desk - so I was wrong.
iii. What does this say about the future (or the past, and the present, even) of male contributions to fora such as this? Do any of you guys regularly AWADize with a woman present?
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#41998
09/19/2001 5:05 PM
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>Do any of you guys regularly AWADize with a woman present?
Gettin' awful damned personal aren't you???
With great candor, I must tell you I only do that when there's NO woman around!
TEd
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#41999
09/19/2001 5:07 PM
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Wondered who'd jump on that opportunity first - should have known it would be you, Señor TEd.
No charge for the set-up.
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#42000
09/19/2001 5:20 PM
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Do any of you guys regularly AWADize with a woman present?
As with God and the tree: there's always a woman present.
Not necesarily a lady, though ...
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#42001
09/19/2001 8:25 PM
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And exactly where do you hang out that there are often women who are not 'ladies' hanging about?
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#42002
09/19/2001 8:35 PM
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[True Confessions]Faldage has been known to AWADize with me around. He types, I nod my head, smile, and say,"Yes, dear." [/end True Confessions]
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#42003
09/19/2001 10:19 PM
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And exactly where do you hang out that there are often women who are not 'ladies' hanging about?1 Why, this board, of course, dear. That was established by an exchange some time ago: bel: There are ladies present Mister, thank-you very much  shona: Are there?? Where?[end of exchange] 2 At home. My wife is of course the most refined of ladies, but our dog has, unhappily, shown herself to be of very easy virtue.
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#42004
09/20/2001 2:02 AM
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Ah well sure, if you bring up those examples, but if you are quick enough to have found the first exchange you will also have noted that shona was a fish, on a bike, no less and as such quite blind (and a little smelly) when out of the water and unable to see that there were only ladies on Board.
Now y'all *could* disagree with me just to see what happens. La-dee-dah, let me just step outta the way here. Oh, and what was that you were saying about thinking John Denver is a terrible singer and artist. (run and hide emoticon as Jackie comes onto the scene)
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#42005
09/20/2001 2:05 AM
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but our dog has, unhappily, shown herself to be of very easy virtue.
Well of course, everybody knows that Lady is a Tramp (giving it the ole soft shoe emoticon)
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#42006
09/20/2001 2:34 AM
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Hi, bel! By odd coincidence, the dog's name (chosen long before she was of an age where such propensities were noted) is -- no kidding -- Flirt.
And BTW, did I impugn John Denver? Sure hope not.
(Note the negative pregnant.)
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#42007
09/20/2001 3:41 PM
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Bel, I am rolling! Shona is smelly??!! Oh, ha, ha! Golly, I wonder what that little booger's up to? Now, Keiva--just what was that you were saying about my beloved John Denver and his wonderful songs??? Should I smush you?
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#42008
09/20/2001 4:00 PM
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What? "I fear I am not up to the intellectual pressure of this conversation."
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#42009
09/20/2001 5:03 PM
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"I fear I am not up to the intellectual pressure of this conversation."
Well, then, let's meet in the law library, and see about getting you up to speed.
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#42010
09/20/2001 5:06 PM
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let's meet in the law library and...
Is that called soliciting over there? [whistles]
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#42011
09/20/2001 5:20 PM
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And I'd thought the intellectual pressure was excessive? BTW: bel, how does this square wtih your prior argument about "ladies only"?
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