#41531
09/16/2001 3:13 PM
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Mav, i think that number (65%) exist, becuase americans, with all our fault, have a system of justice. Most Americans believe OJ "got away with murder"-- but he had is day in court, and he will not be "assasinated". he might be a social outcast, but he will live.
We have very little trust in justice in other countries, england pehaps being the exception, the rest of europe iffy.
maybe we are wrong. but we don't have any faith, that any "government" in any mid eastern country, even if presented with the cancelled checked for the payment of the flight school, or the paying the bills for the the terrorist who boared the flight, would find any of their nationalist guilty-- actually, we think, the accused, would be "hiding out" in plain site, going about unencombered by the law.
it is from this perspective, (right or wrongly held) that the appalling number arises.
One of the truths is, as Cap't Kiwi can tell you, america is a big, and beautiful country. and unfortunately, unlike Kiwi's or Ozzies, we don't have a sense that we need to go out and see the world. the percentage of americans who have travel abroad is very low (look at bush--his idea of world travel was canada and mexico.)
i don't know which comes first, our personal narrow parochial views, or our political isolation. but they do go hand in hand. the rest of the world is a little scary to america, -- and they close their eyes to it-- but are very happy to enjoy the riches corporate america hauls off from where ever. We are a youthful nation, we grew a bit with the WW's, but now, we must come to acting as adults in the world.
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#41532
09/16/2001 3:48 PM
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Mav, i think that number (65%) exist, becaase americans, with all our fault, have a system of justice. ... but we don't have any faith, that any "government" in any mid eastern country would find any of their nationalist guilty -- actually, we think, the accused, would be "hiding out" in plain site, going about unencumbered by the law.
This is, I think, a good part of the concern. It would be laudable for the accused to have a full criminal trial here -- but no one expects, for example, that Afghanistan would consent to extradite bin Ladin et al. to stand trial in the U.S. Given that, mav, how would you propose to go about separating the "judge, jury and executioner"?
Interestingly: where extradition is not feasible, international law allows a trial if the accused is instead kidnapped to bring him into the jurisdiction of the country in which he is to be tried. The most familiar example is Adolph Eichman, kidnapped from Argentina by Israeli agents, and brought to Israel for trial.
The court rejected, based on prior precedent, Eichman's attorneys' argument that the court had no proper jurisdiction over his person (having obtained his person only by kidnapping). Those precedents included:
(a) (I think) the Nurenberg trials, and
(b) (I am certain) U.S Supreme Court rulings in the 1890's, where various US labor leaders, when criminally tried for labor-movement violence, had been brought by kidnap into the jurisdiction where the violence occurred.
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#41533
09/16/2001 3:52 PM
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but now, we must come to acting as adults in the worldHelen, I really hope this may come about as some sort of positive counterweight to so many individual pains and tragedies. I can certainly recognise what you are saying about justice and perceptions of its absence in many parts of the world. But I know that whatever else we get right or wrong, we CANNOT take the path of state-supported murder. It is tantamount to cutting the branch on which we sit. I have been struck, through wide exposure to European radio and TV and newspapers over the last 48 hours *, that (actually as Jo suggested) my views expressed recently may be closer to the educated mainstream than I had assumed likely. I think there is, in addition to the obvious and open-hearted sympathy for everyone caught up in the tragedy, a desperate hope that Americans will find a cool sane space of contemplation – and realise that much of the rhetoric they have been spoon-fed by their political system for generations contains much self-imagery that is completely delusional. “Of all history's great powers, from Athens and Rome to Byzantium and imperial Britain, perhaps none has ever so dominated the globe as America does now.
Nor has any of these powers aroused such a complex of feelings, positive and negative, that could go some way toward explaining how extremists from a distant world could mount an attack of the unfathomable hatred seen this week in New York and Washington, followed by the unrestrained outpouring of sadness and support from some of the very peoples that America's terrorist enemies claim to represent.
America, with its daunting economic, political and military power, its pervasive popular culture, and its instinct to spread the freewheeling, secularist ways of American life — even to those who may prefer to shun them — has an impact on people's lives to the farthest corners of the earth. Just how great this impact is, and how, in many places, it is resented, may be more than many Americans can grasp.
If they consider their country's place at all, many Americans may see it in uncomplicated terms, as the "beacon of freedom" President Bush spoke of with moistened eyes this week. But the feelings of many of the peoples who live in America's shadow are frequently less sanguine, or at least deeply contradictory. Grievances run side by side, and often in the same person, with a consuming passion for things American.”http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/16/international/16AMER.html?todaysheadlinesAmerica is not viewed worldwide as a beacon of all that is best in mankind, not by a long chalk: close friends admire and indeed share much of America’s values, but the complete mix of feelings is far more complicated. It is the twin realisation that (like it or not) the USA is a part of the wider world, and also that the wider world has some serious issues that the USA needs to come to terms with, which gives a hope that some good may arise from the ashes, not just more death and inhumanity. “That fat, daydreaming America is gone now, way gone — as spent as the tax-rebate checks, as forgotten as the 2000 campaign's debate over prescription-drug plans, as bankrupt as our dot-com fantasies of instant millions, as vaporized as the faith that high-tech surveillance and weaponry would keep us safe……
We have no choice now but, as a horror- struck Hamlet said after being visited by the ghost, to ‘wipe away all trivial fond records’ from the table of memory, and hope that our learning curve will be steep.”http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/15/opinion/15RICH.html* as an example only of these emerging view trends here, let me quote from the Letters page of The Times on Saturday, not generally a notably libertarian medium! (There were 8 published letters in all, three about more tangential matters such as potential terrorist access to plutonium)
1 “Firm and legitimate action must be taken to hit back effectively…/… But account must also be taken of the wider issues of foreign policy that provide an underlying cause of the deep animosity against the US which is fuelling these atrocities. In large part this hostility arises out of a perception across the Arab and Islamic world that United States policy is irrevocably committed to support for Israel’s continued occupation of Palestinian lands. The obduracy of the present Israeli leadership, initiated with Ariel Sharon’s ill-judged act of provocation by parading near the Muslim sanctuary of the Haram al-Sharif in Jerusalem during last year’s election campaign, has intensified the frustration among extremists within the Islamic world. If the issues that are generating such ferocious acts of terrorism are to be effectively countered, a deliberate American lead in renewed progress over the Arab-Israeli peace process, as was given by George Bush Snr at the end of the Gulf War in 1991, has to form part of the answer.” – Alan Munro, British Ambassador to Saudi Arabia ’89-‘93
2 “…However well intentioned, US governments have aroused a sense of injustice throughout the Arab and Islamic world and provoked feelings ranged from muted disapproval to fanatical hated. Western leaders should aim to cut at the roots of terrorism, not just its vile tentacles.” – Micheal Purcell.
3 “….While terrorism can never be right, the fact that those who carry out terrorist acts have often been driven to it by the failure of others to listen to their grievances needs to be recognised. It does no good to the credibility of the US or NATO to assume that right is entirely and irrefutably on their side.” – John Evers.
4 “I fully agree with Simon Jenkins (Comment, Sept 14) that the crisis calls for a distinction between determination and vengeance, acts of will and acts of idiocy. It is a time when head must rule heart. Assuming that the attack on the WTC and Pentagon is the work of associates of Osama bin Laden, the core complaints of the world of Islam – dispossession of Palestinians by Israel – must be seriously attended to; otherwise we will simply be helping bin Laden’s cause and validating fanaticism.” – Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, Leader Muslim Parliament of GB.
5 “Having grown up with 30 years of terrorism in Northern Ireland, it is disappointing to hear President Bush and his Secretary of State, Colin Powell, talk of revenge. Revenge has done nothing to solve the tit-for-tat loss of life in Ulster. It is only serving to heighten tension between Palestinians and Israelis. NATO countries must not be drawn into a military confrontation as a result of the attacks in the US.” – William Sellar.There is a range of views represented through the BBC services, including this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1547000/1547292.stmBob, I too have made a detailed study of the history of the Middle East, and could happily trade skirmishes about the Balfour Declaration and the detail of the Palestine Mandate until everyone else in the room was screaming for relief! But let us just look for a moment at the big picture: there are two groups of peoples in that area of the world, with an immensely complicated history of mutual stupidity and sometimes simply evil. The most recent attempt at a peace process was being undermined by the most accelerated grab of Palestinian lands for new Jewish-only settlements and roads ever seen in the region. Does current US foreign policy make the eventual peaceful co-existence of these two tribes more or less likely?The thing that makes this most odd for me is that through all personal friendships and other contacts I have had with nationals from that whole region, and from deep-seated cultural predispositions I am a natural friend of the state of Israel, and continue to wish her citizens nothing but happiness. It is only cold logical analysis of the actual reality being played out daily that makes me so concerned that we do now what we have to do eventually: facilitate a peace process based on mutual respect and even-handed justice (even if we doubt some aspects of one or other or indeed both parties’ good faith). And Bel, no, your dad was right despite the shameful displays we witness from time to time, so keep that flame burning. The world is continuously recreated in the image of our actions and our beliefs. If we act well and with justice, we leave our children’s world a small increment of truth and beauty; if we act otherwise, we rob ourselves of an increment of peace and happiness and leave a bill for future generations to pay in blood and misery. Keep faith with the good in all of us – as Insel has so vividly commented, a thousand incidences of this have been on view through this terrible week.
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#41534
09/16/2001 4:19 PM
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As things unfold we'll have to look at the numbers, at how big the "handful" is. Yep, that sounds reasonable. 65 percent of those questioned say American agents should be allowed to seek out and assassinate people in foreign countries who commit terrorist acts against Americans. the idea that 65% of Americans now evidently support state-conducted murder is appalling. When is it appropriate to use the word 'murder' for state-sponsored assassination?
Mav, you've used linguistic prestidigitation to change the subject. Before, we were talking about the few on lunatic fringe who, like Mr. Beckwith, would "level their country". But the 65% you now cite supports something very different: a specific targeting of the specific individuals directly involved.
Mav, have you set up your requirements in such a way that absolutely no response will be acceptable to you? If the response surgically targets the specific individuals who are directly responsible (and stringently minimizes harm to others), will you castigate it as "assassination"? Conversely, if the response is broader, will you excoriate it as "creating innocent victims"?
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#41535
09/16/2001 4:27 PM
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I hope not, Ken. For example, whilst yes, I am completely resolute that murder = murder whether by the individual, the terrorist, or the state, I fully expect and endorse America to go after the perpetrators of this outrage. But I am just trying to suggest we all need to act together within the confines of the law and the justice we seek to protest. It's not an easy path.
You are, of course, absolutely right to discriminate between the two types of response - but I was nevertheless interested in this as a statistical pop-quiz of what Americans are thinking and feeling.
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#41536
09/16/2001 4:29 PM
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It's not an easy path.
Amen, brother mine, amen.
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#41537
09/16/2001 4:40 PM
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and also please believe that I am not preaching from some lofty position of advantage. In the course of my formative years and adult life, there have been times particularly in relation to the IRA when I have passionately wanted to have my finger on that button. I have personal reasons for that. But I have come by painful degrees, through outrage after outrage, murder after murder, blame after blame after blame, to a current belief that there is simply no alternative. That, however much in pain that we may look for the quick fix, in the longer run there is nothing shown to work but dialog(ue), understanding, patience, compromise: all those grey and amorphous things that cost us dear. It's not what, in some respects, I want to believe - but I just know that if this response is heavy-handed and not accompanied by serious soul searching in the West, we will be back here very soon, but worse.
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#41538
09/17/2001 4:30 AM
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Assuming that Bin Laden is behind the attacks, or even that it is simply probable that he is, would America settle for a trial on neutral territory as was recently done with the Libyans accused of being behind the Lockerbie bombing? Of course this would probably mean recognising the Taliban government and persuading them that he would be treated fairly and that handing him over was not a breach of their previous oaths to him.
Bingley
Bingley
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#41539
09/17/2001 5:05 AM
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Inselpeter responded: The only reason I can think of that the Israelis would attack the United States would be to engage this country in all-out war in the Middle East thereby destroying their adversaries.
Come on, IP, I can think of several reasons why they may wish to more firmly bind the US to them which would fall short of wanting to engineer all-out war in the region. Amd the Mossad have a lot more influence in Israel than the CIA does in the US, or at least that's my understanding.
While not beyond the scope of possibility, I find it hard to contemplate and also that the suggestion insinuates an incredible evil to that government. *Perhaps, if the country's very existence were threatened..but it is not.
I offer you two items to consider: 1. Ariel Sharon is the ultimate hawk and none of his Arab neighbours will trust him as far as they can kick him. Witness the breakdown in real dialogue between the Israelis and the Palestinians (although, yes, it's relative, but symbols are important). And 2., of course Israel's existence is threatened. That has never changed. The fluid nature of politics in the area has that as a constant.
As to the Saudis, I cannot imagine what possible motive a regime that is at pains to keep power in the face of fundamentalist movements could have to so destabilize the politics of the region.
No, no, IP, the exact opposite. The Saudis are under threat from within and without by fundamentalists. What better response, then, than to have the Americans come in, as they have done before, and do their dirty work for them?
But please note, I merely put these up as straw men. I don't necessarily think that the argument holds any water. I just wanted people to think a little further outside the square.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#41540
09/17/2001 6:33 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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<<strawdogs>>
Dear Cap,
I appreciate the importance of the thinking outside the square to which you admonish us, and I think I understand you better now that you've written <<..strawdogs..>>. How deliberative we will be, I haven't the heart or stomach to speculate, right now.
Also, I mean you no offense when I say I haven't the heart or stomach to continue this debate right now. I am content to say we disagree on the specifics and to agree the care you recommend is paramount.
Yours,
IP
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#41541
09/17/2001 3:03 PM
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Bush declares this to be war... a resolution passes Congress which reads like Tonkin Gulf... an ultimatum is now in place to the Taliban...
(fill in the blank)
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#41542
09/17/2001 4:15 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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I suppose at this point my own feeling is we should recognize the act as an act of war; action it as a crime; try it at The Hague; improve security, espionage, etc. Mourn, rebuild, move on.
And that we should consider reconsidering and not consider learning from all this to be handing a victory to the enemy. I suppose we, as a nation, have a tremendous lot of soul searching to do.
Please, please. No more devastation. Please.
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#41543
09/17/2001 5:16 PM
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I just wanted to convey my appreciation of what I've been reading in this and related threads here, even though I've nothing useful to contribute. It is a kind of refuge to come here and read so many thoughtful insights. I'm still most often stuck in that dark place between mute numbness and overwhelming sadness, for the world in general and for those I knew and worked with who are still missing and presumably dead.
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#41544
09/17/2001 5:33 PM
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mmm, glad to hear that - apologies to all that I have shot my mouth of so much, though, but I have really appreciated the opportunity to trade different perspectives with you-all. and BTW, confirming the impression of one or two perhaps, I notice this visit to the thread carries my number hehhehheh 
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#41545
09/17/2001 7:40 PM
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The difficulty I have is with the term "war" - and apologies if this has already been discussed and I've missed it. This is actually word-related. Hmmm.
As I understand it (and the lawyers among us may well correct me if I'm wrong), "war" can only exist between equals. Usually that's between nations. War, of course, has different levels and different words to describe those levels, depending on the context and intensity of the fighting. The American Heritage Dictionary, perhaps not the most authoritative of sources, says:
war (wôr)
n.
A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
The period of such conflict.
The techniques and procedures of war; military science.
I offer this as a source for my statement in the previous paragraph.
Anyway, I can well understand the Americans, and in particular, the politicians, characteristing the attacks as "war". Certainly, the scale of the attack was such that it didn't appear to be too much of an exaggeration on Tuesday, and I didn't give it's use a moment's thought. Like everyone else, I was too bound up in the acts and their aftermath to consider the implications of what was being said, particularly with regard to the semantics. And even now, I feel that America's leaders were entitled to use whatever terms they liked at that time.
But I think that we now have to step back a little. Unless a nation state was the proximate cause of the attacks - or substantively knew that they were being planned and failed to act to stop them - America really can't "go to war" with the perpetrator. Seeking to bring bin Laden to justice - whether through the transnational judicial system as represented by the World Court or through the somewhat less problematic, in this instance, US courts, is not an act of war. It is merely enforcing justice, using the word loosely. If the CIA is used to get bin Laden "with extreme prejudice" then the word "war" really can't be used in that context either. That is merely state-sponsored terrorism. I'm reminded of stones and glasshouses.
It may be that the US will choose to declare war on Afghanistan, although (a) I don't think that's very clever, and (b) Colin Powell seems to agree with me (he must read my emails).
I think it's about time that the mixed signals being sent through the misuse of emotive words like "war" should be sorted out. A "war against terrorism" is fine, but for America to be talking about entering into a war in the formal sense is ... what, overstating the case, somewhat?
As usual, for what it's worth, or not.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#41546
09/17/2001 8:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
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I completely agree with CapK's difficulty in using the term "war" to describe the situation we find ourselves in, as I too feel it conveys a sense of equals, or at least entities of the same category, in conflict. I desperately want to continue believing that the US is categorically different from a terrorist organization, and that we will not begin carpet-bombing Afghanistan in retaliation for the attacks here.
I keep seeing in my mind's eye the image of Bush and a bunch of US troops leaping into the saddle, charging off to war, and then casting about to find which way they need to ride to find the enemy, as the traditional field of battle appears to be empty. I have no easy answers, but I definitely feel that we need to tread very carefully here, as we're defining a new kind of conflict, and I don't want that definition to include tacit acceptance of the idea that it's okay to shoot from the hip because we're pissed off.
I never expected to be so pleased to have a military man in the role of Sec'ty of State, but it gives me hope to think that Powell, in addition to reading CapK's e-mails, can draw on his own experience and see that waging war on Afghanistan (or Iraq, or others on the list of possibles CapK described earlier) is not the answer here.
As a final thought in this hylarchic jumble, I'd like to commend mav, BobY and TEd for a civil argument over very contentious points, and for keeping this forum a haven of peace in a world where it may become scarce for a time.
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#41547
09/18/2001 1:23 AM
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Amen, Hyla-chic --to ALL points you made.
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#41548
09/18/2001 3:39 AM
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G.W. is so inspirational; first he likened the situation to a crusade, and now he's compared it to an old TV western: Wanted - Dead or Alive.
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#41549
09/18/2001 3:39 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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<<A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.>>
If I might add a little pepper to the wurst. I believe, Cap (and perhaps just for the sake of being contentious) you have been seduced by the apparent meaning of the definition. The hint is in the "or," which is not exclusive and the answer is that the United States and Osama might each be party to a single conflict. According to the AHD, this need only be prolonged--whatever that means--et voila!
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#41550
09/18/2001 5:15 AM
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I still think that the use of "war" in this context is actually attributing a status to bin Laden - that of some kind of equal to the US capable of maintaining his side in a sustained conflict - which raises him somewhat above his real capabilities. Let's call it the Insel-Peter Principle.
The man may well be able to organise another attack of some kind, but I think that unless he can obtain BNC-type weapons it is unlikely to be as spectacular as the one last Tuesday. In that respect, at least, I think he's shot his bolt. To organise something like Tuesday's atrocity (and I have no difficulty with that word here) requires peace and quiet, and above all, US complacency. He'll be struggling to get that, won't he? You can't kick over a hornet's nest and expect the hornets to say "Oh, well, never mind".
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#41552
09/18/2001 8:34 AM
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Isn't the Secretary of State Colin Powell, who was (still is?) a general?
Incidentally, how does the man himself pronounce his name? I seem to have heard several variations over the past few days, Colin with the same vowels as coffin, or the same as bowlin', and Powell to rhyme with towel, or like pole.
Bingley
Bingley
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#41553
09/18/2001 8:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
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old hand
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>I still think that the use of "war" in this context is actually attributing a status to bin Laden ... when all he is, is a SUSPECT. Not the slightest bit of evidence has been brought against this man. He may not be a saint, but then our southern friend Bush will hardly go down in history as a second Ghandi. Blame must always be attributed to someone, anyone... it must, in the public's eyes, become a struggle between 'good' and 'evil', then the war can begin. If there isn't enough to hold against those targeted, then that can quickly be changed: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.htmlI guess if all wage war in the name of God, then all will be together in hell.
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#41554
09/18/2001 10:50 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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<<I still think that the use of "war" in this context is actually attributing a status to bin Laden>>
Dear Cap,
If you have convinced me of one thing, it is that I don't always understand you. I really couldn't understand, last night, what possible significance you attached to your distinction. In daylight, I see the wisdom of your remark. (As an aside, I would say my last night's response to you more reflects an urgency for the ridiculous; but I have to say, the Talmud of the Absurd has little relish, these days.)
Dear Beliyouth,
Thank you for your diligence. You, too, are right.
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#41555
09/18/2001 10:51 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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<<I still think that the use of "war" in this context is actually attributing a status to bin Laden>>
Dear Cap,
If you have convinced me of one thing, it is that I don't always understand you. I really couldn't understand, last night, what possible significance you attached to your distinction. In daylight, I see the wisdom of your remark. (As an aside, I would say my last night's response to you more reflects an urgency for the ridiculous; but I have to say, the Talmud of the Absurd holds little relish, these days.)
Dear Beliyouth,
Thank you for your diligence. You, too, are right.
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#41556
09/18/2001 11:55 AM
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Posts: 1,055 |
In today's Guardian Seumas Milne writes: "Shock, rage and grief there has been aplenty. But any glimmer of recognition of why people might have been driven to carry out such atrocities, sacrificing their own lives in the process - or why the United States is hated with such bitterness, not only in Arab and Muslim countries, but across the developing world - seems almost entirely absent. Perhaps it is too much to hope that, as rescue workers struggle to pull firefighters from the rubble, any but a small minority might make the connection between what has been visited upon them and what their government has visited upon large parts of the world." Full article link below: [urlhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,551036,00.html [/url] This is one outspoken Board member's comments: ---------------------------------------------- DoctorSpin - 03:17pm Sep 13, 2001 Awful loss of life, but nothing noteworthy compared to 500,000+ starved Iraqi children, deliberate creation of dictators and wars, trained & funded 'freedom fighters', trained & funded death squads, random missile strikes to get the President's sex life off the evening news, random missile strikes to mark the President's coming into office, Operation Desert The Kurds, blocking medical supplies unless they're exchanged for oil, etc. etc. etc. AIUI, even Taliban / Bin Laden himself got the training/equipment push via the good ol' CIA. All to further US interests - if the people affected don't like it, well they can go and complain to a brick wall. USA continually sides with Israel no matter what they get up to - whom I note took advantage of the media distraction to send more tanks in to expand its lebensraum. The US is also the world's largest arms dealer. (I wonder if they'll determine the knives' origin?) And that's not even touching upon what happens off-camera, nor the cumulative effects of US-manipulated events elsewhere, e.g. Yugoslavia, US-backed IRA. And then there's the economic arena... Those planes were like chickens, coming home to roost. Tasteless I know, but true. In an ideal world, government/military would pause and ask themselves *why* they are despised and referred to as 'the great satan' by almost a third of the planet. Why children danced in the streets when this happened. No prizes for predicting what will probably happen though. Operation TowelHead - The Video Game, fat military checks, flag-waving with near-lynching of any American who doesn't join in, half-cock job to 'preserve US interests in the region', making martyrs to the cause by addressing only the surface symptoms, some more civil liberties stamped on in the name of freedom [racial profiling, encryption backdoors, anyone?]. All that will happen will be the situation gets exacerbated. If they play their cards right, this might even start WWIII - that should help the Dow. And we all know how much they would be concerned if this had happened in some distant unimportant country [e.g. Guyana, Angola, Britian] rather than NYC. Saddam Hussein hit the nail on the head: 'The USA is reaping the thorns of its foreign policy'. He should know - the CIA put him where he is today. http://www.counterpunch.org/ p.s. flamers etc. please note that this is in no way aimed toward the victims of this tradegy, nor is it justifying the attacks. It is Whitehouse policy and attitude that has caused this. On a governmental level, USA is not the shining-city-on-a-hill full of big-hearted boy scouts fighting 'EEEEEEVIIIIILLLL' that it claims to be. It has stirred shit for decades and it's just been splashed. http://talk.guardian.co.uk/
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#41557
09/18/2001 1:02 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
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#41558
09/18/2001 1:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,981 |
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#41559
09/18/2001 1:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
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#41560
09/18/2001 2:41 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
big job to do1. Shut cabin door 2. Issue mace spray to f/attendants 3. Instigate automated fuel dump process to be triggered by ground control in emergency Is that so difficult? and now a word for our conspiracy theoreticians... “US planned attack on Taleban in July…”http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1550000/1550366.stm
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#41561
09/18/2001 7:05 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Rumsfeld, 'the nation must prepare itself for the fight against terrorism'
In light of what Beliyouth and many others have been saying, I suggest that that fight should begin at home.
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#41562
09/18/2001 9:38 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
by: Doctor Spin has got it all wrong. one of our very own fundamentalists has it all worked out.
In an interview Thursday during religious broadcaster Pat Robertson’s TV program “The 700 Club,” Falwell blamed the devastation on pagans, abortionists, feminists, homosexuals, the American Civil Liberties Union and the People for the American Way.
“All of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say, ’You helped this happen,’” he said.
[file this under "Nothing is Simple"]
p.s. - Rev. Falwell apologized Monday, saying “In the midst of the shock and mourning of a dark week for America, I made a statement that I should not have made and which I sincerely regret,” He added: “I want to apologize to every American, including those I named.”
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#41563
09/18/2001 10:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
In an interview Thursday during religious broadcaster Pat Robertson’s TV program “The 700 Club,” Falwell blamed the devastation on pagans, abortionists, feminists, homosexuals, the American Civil Liberties Union and the People for the American Way.
“All of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say, ’You helped this happen,’” he said.
And if Americans want to know the kind of distorted, illogical, venomous fundamentalist thinking that results in America being hated in so many, usually inconsequential and little heard-from parts of the world, well, just step right up and listen to the good Reverend. It's only surprising that he didn't take the opportunity to slip the knife into niggers, kikes, spics and dagos as well. Really, a surprising omission. Imagine including the ACLU and not the Jews. IP, you should feel slighted! Still, it's early days yet, isn't it?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#41564
09/18/2001 10:49 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>it's early days yet.
obviously not too early for finger-pointing.
"Nothing is Simple"
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#41565
09/19/2001 2:01 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Belligerentyouth, I have to publicly, not in a p.m., tell you that your posting of that series of diatribes was the most offensive thing I have ever read on this board or anywhere else on the net.
The article by Mr. Milne raises the question, why don't the firefighters and rescue workers think about why this might have happened to the U.S.A. There's a very simple answer to that. They are not like the god damned evil twisted people who committed this crime. They were raised in a country and society which values life and all that it affirms and in a nation which tries, however imperfectly, to promote that and which is founded on that. We do not live in a society which lives by hate, harbors grudges for decades, and which instills hate into its children every day. Our constitution does not call for the annihilation of our neigbors, as the PLO's does (and they want to be a sovereign state). I don't know who Mr. Milne is and don't care to know. He's obviously someone with an anti-American outlook and now takes the opportunity to vent it. Fuck him.
As for the other crap you included (no other word for it), I have never seen such a farrago of suppositions, outright lies, and off-the-wall theorizing. I can't imagine why you thought that worth sharing with us.
Pardon my way of expressing the above. I'm too angry to be polite.
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#41566
09/19/2001 2:48 AM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 273
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 273 |
Bobyounbalt, did you think the article was anti-American? I thought that the writer was simply trying to get Americans to recognize that the hatred which generated the atrocities of last week had not sprung up out of nowhere. You said,
We do not live in a society which. . . harbors grudges for decades
Try telling that to Vietnam and Cuba.
The knowledge that millions of Americans still can't understand why US hegemony, and the means used to achieve it, has generated massive resentment in so many parts of the world means that "those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it." It is possible to despise the hateful, terrible crimes committed while recognizing the validity of some of the complaints made against the US. That was the thought that I took away from reading Mr Milne's article.
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#41567
09/19/2001 3:22 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>3. Instigate automated fuel dump process to be triggered by ground control in emergency
mav, that still leaves a bit of a problem for a planeload of people (and where the plane comes down -- it won't always be in the middle of a farmer's field). a far, far better thing would be an auto-pilot controlled landing. and believe me, this technology will be available very soon.
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#41568
09/19/2001 4:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Sorry, VC, I don't buy it.
Firstly, I don't know how you understand "hegemony", but dictionaries define it as leadership or domination. The U.S. is certainly "guilty" of leadership, but we haven't attained it by force. Actually, I believe most would agree with me that a hegemony generally connotes a forcible domination, like the British Empire, Third Reich, etc. While we have gotten ourselves into questionable campaigns like Vietnam, now almost universally viewed as a huge error, they were temporary and not intended to create a hegemony. In fact, our motives for what we did in Vietnam were to help the other countries in the area avoid being conquered by communist neighbors. You have a short memory or are too young to remember how that affair came about. The same is true of other "crimes" of which we are accused. Why do we support Israel? To create a hegemony over the Palestinians or the other Arabs? It may be partly to protect the sources of oil on which we are so dependent, but we're not the only ones who depend on it. We are perfectly capable of creating a hegemony by force in the Mid East (as demonstrated in the temporary hegemony we put up in the Iraq-Kuwait affair, which was for the purpose of rescuing a small state invaded by an aggressive neighbor), but as soon as the immediate purpose of it had been attained, we quit without even going to Damascus.
As to grudges, we don't really have them. I would think the Marshall Plan was proof of that. We sulked a good while, but we're back to relations with Vietnam and even starting to help them. Cuba is a somewhat different situation which has to do with domestic politics and all those Cuban voters in Florida, but it looks like we're going to resume relations in the not too distant future and most Americans are for that and have been for years.
But all this is really beside the point. You and others seem to be suggesting that resentment of American policies, successes, prosperity, investments in other countries, the spread of our ideas of democracy and equality in places where such notions are tabu, somehow justify what was done and that we deserve it. Why else even bring it up? Aside from the fact that these maniacs killed many other people besides Americans, as they must have known they would given the nature of the WTC. But you are implying that there was some kind of justice in it.
Along with nearly every American, I deeply resent the fact that certain Colombians and Asians are making incredible fortunes manufacturing and supplying dope to the U.S., which has a fearful effect here. No matter that if there weren't a market for it, the problem would vanish. The fact is that there is a market and there are those who are richer than some small countries from the dope trade. These people are the lowest kind of humanity. But according to your logic, not only are they personally guilty, but so are their countries since they are citizens of them, and therefore I have a perfect right to put together a plan to blow up crowded buildings or commit some other outrage like NY to "punish" the Colombians, Burmese, Thais, etc. who are making themselves a scourge to my country in particular and the world in general. Does that admittedly trifling and imperfect analogy suggest how false your position is?
This is my position: If a sneak attack by the armed forces of a state, a la Pearl Harbor, is unjustified whatever the provocation, if any, there is absolutely zero justification for any individual or group of individuals to commit an act which is designed to kill as many people as possible, inflict as much financial loss as possible, destroy symbolic places, and in general disrupt the national wellbeing and confidence. To repeat: SUCH ACTS CAN NOT BE JUSTIFIED. PERIOD. And if you start bringing up what the U.S. may have done (even if true), your only purpose has to be to attempt a justification, or just to take an opportunity for another anti-US diatribe. If the latter, it's despicable to do it now; it's like kicking someone who's already down. And that's why I found BY's post so offensive.
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#41569
09/19/2001 5:23 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Actually, I believe most would agree with me that a hege
Sorry, the server died in the middle of this one.
BYB, a hegemony is a specifically non-military influence. The US has a hegemonic influence over most of the Western world for economic reasons related partly to the vigour of its economy and also to its sheer size and leadership.
Nazi Germany had hegemony over Italy until 1943 (they were unequal allies), but for the most part was militarily dominant in the rest of Europe. The British Empire had dominion over Hong Kong and a hegemonic influence over southern China (think tea and opium) and the co-hong.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#41570
09/19/2001 8:04 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
ByB writes : He's obviously someone with an anti-American outlook and now takes the opportunity to vent it. Fuck him.
I think the writer of the article expresses strong misgivings about America's foreign policies, but that does not mean he is anti-American - no doubt he has close ties to many Americans.
Just because someone expresses opinions regarding the international and historical situation within which these acts occurred, in order to make some sense of the current position it does not mean that some justification of the crimes has been attempted. Rather than offering some treacle about a 'faceless coward' as if these attacks occurred within some vacuum, one should try to forge positive steps (i.e. not military action) which can be taken to alleviate the hopeless disparities at present.
I don't think I live in the same world in which the perpetrator's supportors live, but I can *try to understand what they *might feel like - that's not wrong, Bob.
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