#41571
09/19/2001 1:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
i have keep out of this, but...
yes, US (american ) culture can be pervasive.. but the fact remains, if a religious person want to dress modestly, they can and do, with out any one saying boo! there are lots of religious jews and muslims, who walk through the street of ny, covered from ankle to to wrist, with there head covered. there religious communities that are cloistered, or semi-cloistered.
hey, you want to live that way, its okay by us.. there are families, (like my son's) that think TV is a bad influence, and don't have one. no one forces the culture down your throat. yeah, its there, and its out in the open, but you are free to accept or reject --or to accept as much as you want or as little as you want.
this country was started by religious fundimentalist who didn't want these kinds of freedoms, but, hey we moved on.
America has the highest percentage of the population going to church, and huge amounts of money go to religious organizations-- but no one is force to church, no one is forced to "piety" no one is forced to give money to religious organizations. if that is threatening.. if that is what earns use the title of the great satan, then there is very little we can do.
of all of the western world, we are the most free, and the most religious. freedom does not destroy religion.
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#41572
09/19/2001 2:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Last night BBC had story that US had a military unit in Tajikistan with plan to capture bin Laden, but it was cancelled because estimate of casualties was too high. The force is apparently still there. Maybe this is what Bush is talking about. I haven't been able to find anything about it in US news. Has anyone else heard anything in US news?
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#41573
09/19/2001 2:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Yes, I put a link to what seems part of that story up earlier in this thread yesterday.
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#41574
09/19/2001 2:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
I have been meaning to put something together on this topic, but have so far not found enough coherence of thought. I would like, however, to suggest a hypothesis.
It is possible that, as an organizing social principle, religion played a role in last weeks crimes. I do not, however, believe that religion lies at the root of those crimes. It is at best a pretext for attitudes and behaviors whose root causes are not subject to such simple categorization. Raw power must be considered at a fundamental level, and its correlative powerlessness. On a metaphysical level--do not reject the notion of the metaphysical on account of the term--the will to destruct is probably deeply bound to the will to create. Inhumanity is bound fast to humanity at the level of humanity's very possibility of existence. Destruction cannot disaffirm humanity. According to this hypothesis, humanity is indivisible. But, of course, I recognize in the last two sentences a flash of idealism.
(The three monotheistic religions remind me of the wives of a single husband, where each vies with the other for an exclusive legitimacy. I may have mentioned in an earlier post that the Yiddish word 'tsoris' --travail-- is the Talmudic word for multiple brides. Without hoping to give further offense where none was ever intended, I will say one must pity this God for his squabbling brides, who finds his emblem on the battle flags of opposing armies.)
That's a smattering.
I'll try to work out the hypothesis.
IP
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#41575
09/19/2001 2:32 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,981 |
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#41576
09/19/2001 2:40 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
In reply to:
Actually, I believe most would agree with me that a hege
Sorry, the server died in the middle of this one.
And I spent hours trying to work something out about reaping, sowing, and hedges and trying to imagine what the point might be. 
Bingley
Bingley
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#41577
09/19/2001 2:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
<I'm thinking of converting
Yes. And as I understand it, a beauty of Bhuddism is you don't need to convert. You need only be, or not. To convert--if I may inject a paradox of language, not of practice--would be antithetical to its spirit. At the level of religion, it seems to me, *a grave trouble is the emphasis on renouncing.
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#41578
09/19/2001 2:43 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
mav, that still leaves a bit of a problem for a planeload of people ...../.... a far, far better thing would be an auto-pilot controlled landing. and believe me, this technology will be available very soon.
Indeed®, on all points tsuwm - I believe this is practicable now, just not deemed advisable for the public's feeling of security ("look, mom - no hands!") My point about fuel dump is that the mere existence of that would render such hijacks improbable, since the deterrent effect of knowing their lunacy would fail should cut out 99% of the chances.
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#41579
09/19/2001 2:50 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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#41580
09/19/2001 5:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Who are the People for the American Way? Is it a real organization or something like the mythical new world order that so many people are convinced is coming to take away our national sovereignty?
Falwell shot himself in the foot with that one! Too bad it wasn't in his mouth at the time.
TEd
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#41581
09/19/2001 5:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#41582
09/19/2001 5:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Who are the People for the American Way?I'll let them speak for themselves: http://www.pfaw.org/
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#41583
09/19/2001 6:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
just a TAD left of center :)
TEd
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#41584
09/19/2001 7:05 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
a TAD left of center
Yeah, well, waddya expect from a bunch a people supporting a country that gots its start from a bunch a revolutionaries.
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#41585
09/19/2001 7:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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#41586
09/19/2001 8:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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just a TAD left of center :)Only if you accept a *static center! 
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#41587
09/19/2001 8:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
I was going to suggest the Sri Lankan group Tea Workers As Terrorists, but the abbreviation would probably get me in trouble.
A now retired flight attendant on a now retired airline:
"Sir, you would like some TWA coffee, some TWA milk, or perhaps some TWA Tea?"
TEd
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#41588
09/19/2001 10:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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To some of us, even the American extreme left looks to be somewhat to the right of Ghengiz Khan! 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#41589
09/19/2001 10:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
CapK, you should have included a pass through the People's Republic of Berkeley, CA on your travels through the US. We can offer left-wing loonies (and this from a very liberal tree frog) to do even your globe-trotting heart proud.
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#41590
09/20/2001 12:29 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
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I just saw my second report in this Chicago area (doubtless I have missed others) of a hate crime involving Arabs. But it was not what I expected. The perpetrators were yelling the following, to a mother and son in the adjacent SUV: "Arabia will rule the world." "F___ Americans, we are going to kill you and your whole country."http://www.suntimes.com/output/terror/cst-nws-arrest19.html
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#41591
09/20/2001 2:48 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
May I be so bold as to declare a short break in this most vigorous thread (I think we could use a short break) and insert for your perusal this poem apropos to IP's thoughtful discussion?
Show me deare Christ, thy Spouse, so bright and clear.
What! is it She, which on the other shore
Goes richly painted? or which robb'd and tore
Laments and mourns in Germany and here?
Sleepes she a thousand, then peepes up one yeare?
Is she selfe truth and errs? now new, now outwore?
Doth she, and did she, and shall she evermore
On one, on seaven, or on no hill appeare?
Dwells she with us, or like adventuring knights
First travaile we to seeke and then make Love?
Betray kind husband thy spouse to our sights,
And let myne amorous soule court thy mild Dove,
Who is most trew, and pleasing to thee, then
When she'is embrac'd and open to most men.
-- John Donne
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#41592
09/20/2001 2:53 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
This is a great thread but unmanageably large. Would one of you old masters do what it takes to break it up?
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#41593
09/20/2001 4:48 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Froggie, I meant that the "left-wing" political party - theoretically the Democrats - would be regarded, in its entirety, as ultra-conservative in Zild. - Ratty.*
*Froggie of Toad Hall? Doesn't really sound right, does it?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#41594
09/20/2001 9:15 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
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#41595
09/20/2001 9:18 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
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#41596
09/20/2001 10:08 AM
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
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addict
Joined: Feb 2001
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auto-pilot controlled landings ... I believe this is practicable now, just not deemed advisable for the public's feeling of security
many landings are on auto-pilot as I understand it, they just don't talk about it much. Certainly the old Trident airplanes (circa 20 years ago?) were the only ones able to land in fog at London, precisely because it was automatic. There is a story that the program had to be changed because it landed too flat, pefectly safe but the customers felt safer with the nose high.
From google - I just had to check my memory:
first fully automated commercial landing was made by a BEA Trident 1 in May 1967
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#41597
09/20/2001 12:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,803 |
And just how far right *was Ghengiz Khan?
As far as I know he could have been the front man for an anarcho-syndicalist collective.
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#41599
09/20/2001 5:29 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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>For your crime of punning, telling of shaggy dog tales and humour of dubious origins I hereby fine you, one cup of tea (hot, no iced stuff), to be brewed by you and presented by you to me in fine bone china the next time I set am within a fifty mile radius of you on US soil.
Bone again, Christian??
Tisane-yone going to defend me here? It's been (t)oolong since I've had such an invitation. You get together the green and we'll have tea together. Assam, my friend in England, told me recently Herb'll want to come along, even if the price be steep.
All seriousness aside, I would love the opportunity to pay my fine.
TdE
TEd
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#41600
09/22/2001 1:15 PM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
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addict
Joined: May 2000
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The problem is I don't know if we command enough respect in the eyes of these beasts to react with
authority anymore. We have been proven vulnerable too many times. I believe the roots of this all started
1. When the Carter Administration flinched on attacking when Iran took our hostages in '79. Yes, the lives
of those 50 government workers could have been lost in such an attack and hindsight is 20/20, but they
knew the risks involved in accepting a government job overseas, and we should've gone right in after
them. The aborted rescue mission later was just an incidental after-fact. That's when our respect in the
world starting slipping. And 2. In 1983 when we lost 283 Marines in Beirut (figure may be slightly off) the
Reagan Administration knew they could do nothing, and did nothing except to divert a gullible public's
attention by going into the pismire island-country of Granada to satisfy their need to strike out at
"something." But, ultimately, those (or the country/countries) responsible were never brought to justice
either by litigation or military response.
Besides, Reagan and his cronies (including Bush, Sr.) were too busy covering their tracks of dealing arms
to Iran as a gift for holding the hostages until he was assured of ascending to power...as soon as he
lifted his hand from the Bible at his 1st inauguration, presto!...instant hostage release! But that's another
story.
After these two events it was open season on Americans, and then their Western allies as well...solitary
hostages, plane blasts, European airports, etc. Once they found out they could strike at the US and get
away with it, there was no turning back.
And once a fanatic fuses politics with religion and is ready to die for their "cause," how do you stop
them? I don't know if you can. Though squeamish about capital punishment, I've often said that after the
first World trade Center bombing which I considered to be an act of war designed to destroy the towers
and kill tens of thousands of innocent people, that the perps, immediately upon conviction, should've
been marched against a wall on camera and executed by firing squad. Show them we will not fool around.
But, of course, our sense of justice bequeathed these genoicidal maniacs to life terms in humane
prisons...sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll. Unless they're in solitary for protection. If so I hope they immediately
release these subhuman assholes to the general inmate population which I'm sure would be delighted to
mete out thorough justice to them at this point. Yes, I believe in mercy and forgiveness, but there is a
point where you have to draw a line in the sand, and I've reached it. The stakes are now clear...if you're
an American, you die. Remember that cynical and insulting release of black hostages all through the '80's,
as if African-Americans were going to fall for that ploy of differentiation. Well, the terrorists took care of
that fable when they bombed the US embassies in Africa. But the problem is, it isn't just
Americans...these genoical maniacs who think they speak for their Muslin God...they don't. And certanly
not for the vast majority of the Muslin faithful, it really is a religion of peace, so I really fail to understand
this constant slaughter of the innocent in the name of their God) are trying to take on the entire
world...us, Russia, the Hindus in India, all of Western Europe, their own secular governments,
everybody...it's just craziness! And the real problem is that if you convict and execute any of thes
culprits they're very happy to be martyred for their cause, thank you, and are hailed and viewed as
such...what's the point of killing people who are perfectly willing and happy to die? So where's the
answer, people? I pray to see it...but I just don't know. And we can't afford to go out, now, and blast
away at dubious targets like that grain factory in Sudan, or strike areas that will kill any innocent
civilians.
(Saddan Hussein...who I think is very culpable in this attack...but his name is not mentioned enough...this
IS after all, the one and the same Bush administration he went to war with in '91, why wouldn't he take
another shot at it? But maybe the Bushes don't want anybody to consider this?...anyway, Saddam is still
sitting pretty in his royal palace, thank you, while 100,000 or so of his countrymen have died around him
as th result (directly or indirectly) of the Gulf War, including an estimated 40,000 children...which shows
and proves you have to kill the head, not just the body, or it doesn't go away). Violate the international
law of political assassination instead of all these "collateral" innocent lives, or, ultimately, what we're
witnessing today? YOU BET!! GO FOR IT!!! We have the technology and trained covert forces to get it
done! Any proven mass-murdered or war criminal...Saddam, Bin Laden, etc. I don't think we have a
choice. Not any more. But, ultimately, too, the sad reality is, that as long as there are people willing to
die in suicide missions, what can the world do? And,what, for God's sake, do these people WANT??? How
did it come to all this?
Thank you for your unsavoury, narrow-minded and bigoted ranting, Whitman.
I hope they do capture the culprits and, if they do sentence them to the firing squad, I hope you are the executioner. I'd like to see the look on your face as you face them with a loaded gun in your hand. Will you smile and enjoy killing as much as they have? Will you do it cold-heartedly? Or will you lose your bottle and admit that you just can't kill?
What kind of person are you? You call these terrorists monsters and yet you bay for blood? I feel sorry for you and all your like-minded sicko types.
You have such a poor understanding of world events and I find your knowledge on other races and civilisations (which are far more civilised than your own, by the way) absolutely appalling.
It's dangerous idiots like you who stir up hatred and bigotry in this world. You definitely should be classed in there with the [deleted] set.
Note: This post was written, like all the others in this thread, in the immediate aftermath of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre and elsewhere. As is the case with any 'debate' on such a historic occasion as that, things are said out of context and with great emotion that would not normally be said in times of rationale.
I have apologised to Whitman for the above post which was written with spite and venom which are really not characteristic of me. Bar one word I have decided not to amend the post and to leave the rest of it in its entirety as a reminder to other members, both future and present, of a very intense and heated time on the board.
Let's hope that peace can prevail in the world and on the board and that such a dark event will never be repeated again
Rubrick 01/02/2002
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#41601
09/22/2001 2:31 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Dear Heart--
A LOT of people say, and write, things in the heat of passion that they might say and write differently, at other times. Just a reminder, Sweetie, kind of coming full circle, you might say. Love.
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#41602
09/23/2001 2:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Time to start anew.
Another thread being opened by moi as this is getting unmanageable.
With affectionate aloha to you all,
wow
High Priestess
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#41603
09/25/2001 1:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
PLEASE STOP THIS THREAD.
PLEASE DO NOT POST ANYTHING ELSE TO THIS THREAD. I AM ASKING YOU AS A FRIEND. I AM ASKING YOU AS A HUMAN BEING. AND I'M ASKING EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NO RIGHT TO ASK YOU.
PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE WITH THESE THREADS AND THIS TOPIC.
The name-calling, the denigrating of people without thought and without care; we have become no better than the chat rooms we all so avidly avoid.
When you demean one person you are demeaning yourself. Look over your own posts and think about it in all honesty. Are your words the words of tolerance, peace and honesty, our are they reactionary at best and harsh, angry and close-minded and mean at worst. How much better is one person who demeans a second person for his thoughts or beliefs?
If you're ticked-off that I'm asking you this send me a personal note…rant at me if you must rant – but do it in private.
But please, think of how you are acting and ask yourself if you would treat your mother that way. If you would not, why would you treat an other human that way.
There is a world of difference between political debate and intolerant and antagonistic ranting. We've crossed the line.
IF WE WANT TO GET BACK TO IT, WE'LL GET BACK TO IT WHEN SENTIMENTS ARE LESS AT THE BRINK.
PLEASE, PLEASE STOP ALL THESE THREADS.
With all my heart,
Ginette Beaupré
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#41604
10/07/2001 4:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,981 |
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#41605
10/07/2001 5:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
The RE above, which I have changed from jmh's, expresses my sentiments.
May I respectfully suggest that it is unwise to resurrect here a discussion which in the past has proved incendiary and divisive? and is wiser to have any such discussion elsewhere, so that this AWAD Board can continue to fill its regular role in our lives?
To the extent some may wish to resurrect that discussion, they can (out of consideration for those of us who feel otherwise) freely to create a new website of their own for that subject. Or if that is not possible, place their posts on the matter in some little-used area in the bottom half of the main index? For which purpose I would propose "Loanwords from German".
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