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hehheh
I know. It's tough, in truth, it is. I don't have any magic answers.
In the particular scenario you raised, I think it woud be legitimate for the UN to demand that Bin Liner be handed over to face a charge of crimes against humanity, with the US/NATO tasked as enforcers. Perhaps there are other suggestions available?
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OP
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Let us seek remedy, not retribution.
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Pooh-Bah
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mav quotes from http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/14/national/14REAC.html"I know just what to do with these Arab people," Mr. Beckwith proclaimed on Wednesday to the newspaper staff. "We have to find them, kill them, wrap them in a pigskin and bury them. That way they will never go to heaven…” "Level the country that's harboring them," he said. "The whole country. Let the world know that we're not going to put up with terrorism of any magnitude. Go in there and do the job. Hit them with whatever we've got."Then Mav adds: Which is when it becomes a maverick’s duty to speak.--------------- Mav, you are setting up a straw man. Your quote does not reveal that the newspaper clearly considers Mr. Beckwith the crazed, lunatic fringe, and not in any way a typical view. It precedes his remarks as follows: Phil Beckwith, a retired truck driver, announced his modest proposal ...in a newspaper that serves Fremont County, Wyo., one of the largest and emptiest counties in the nation.Mav, there's no "duty to speak" in refutation of every isolated lunacy.
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Carpal Tunnel
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I'm flying off in the direction of the Mediterranean early in the morning
Dearest Jo, take care. We love you.
=========================================================
I may as well say here that I sent Anu a message two days ago, I think, saying that I knew he could read our posts of concern, and that I wanted him to know that there were off-board, personal contacts as well, among our 'family' here.
I got a thank-you from his assistant this morning, who said that Anu is feeling overwhelmed and emotional at the moment.
Aren't we all, Dearest Anu, aren't we all? But we thank you for the gift of knowing each other.
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But Ken, this is too easy to denounce as isolated lunacy. There are reports of attacks against people of particular ethnic backgrounds all over the USA - they may not represent the majority redneck view, I cannot judge that accurately, but I sure as hell know my opinion is likely to lie outside the current concensus in the USA. Sure, this newspaper pokes fun at the guy - it's the NYT, what else would they do? - but they also factually report (amongst a host of such hate incidents) a Lebanese American being the recipient of over 20 9mm slugs. Nice.
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Here, Mav, I think we agree. It would be easy, lazy argumentation by me to dismiss an incident as isolated lunacy -- and equally lazy argumentation to treat a handful of incidents as necessarily representing a pattern. As things unfold we'll have to look at the numbers, at how big the "handful" is.
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a civil dialogue, indeed Ted.
I unreservedly apologise for any offence caused by my jocular use of those terms, which in this airless medium evidently read a little differently to how I would say them to your face.
The points you make are good and I suspect over a whisky we wouldn’t end up a million miles apart. Let me offer just a few quick thoughts.
You evidently bridle at the thought of the USA being described as a trade empire. But what realistic description fits a nation with strategic interests in every continent of the globe, which it protects with the largest armed forces ever seen on the planet, with client states that are wholly dependant on the USA, and which are all in the service of advancing the mother nation’s pursuit of wealth through trade? Please don’t misunderstand me: this is not necessarily a bad thing, but I believe above all in recognising the reality of the world around me. Since America picked up the baton from the British Empire, perhaps we have a particularly clear perspective on what the new reality is.
You suggest that morality is only applicable to individuals, not to corporations and (by implication) also not to governments. I disagree. Completely and utterly. A team is nothing but a group of individuals in the same coloured shirt. This is increasingly being recognised by the leading transnational corporations when they talk of stakeholder values. I used to work for one of the leading minds in PriceWaterhouseCoopers who has helped develop these concepts and who traces the direct relationship between the moral behaviour of companies and their bottom line results. Since he managed the takeover of some little USA oil firm by some little UK oil firm for a world record value, I figure he may be right.
You want us to believe that the Fed reserve moves are based on philanthropy. I cannot buy that – the world banking system is nowadays completely interlocked, and they all move in what they believe are the most appropriate ways to maximise overall financial security. This is simply enlightened self-interest by all parties concerned. Again, I am not criticising the USA or Americans – but we need to be honest in our descriptions of what we all do, I am sure you agree? And I might add, our national debt is still paying the USA for the FIRST war, let alone the second – I seem to remember reading it amounts to the equivalent of about $80 per annum of taxes for every man, woman and child in the UK. I think the USA did make a substantial gift through the Marshall plan (and a cynic would say plundered the knowledge of Germany in return), but not as it happens to the UK. But the real current injustice of the banking system is the enslavery (and I pick my words with care here) of third world populations by first world banks. American banks and governments have stood out most strongly against any relaxation of this crippling burden.
I know you are far from stupid, Ted. And I agree that the apparent nihilism of these nutcases is a direct and present threat to civilised life. And I can only imagine the current sense of pain and probably above all a kind of impotent anger that is now burning in the minds of so many good American people.
All I am saying is that those of us with sharp minds have a special duty of care to not allow ourselves to be swept along with the tide. We all need to think how our current frame of mind will seem when looking back in tranquillity from the perspective of a year… five years… twenty years….
This is not easy. It is not a quick fix for the anger and hurt. But ultimately, wrapping ourselves in the flag and waving a big stick can only ever address the symptoms, not the cause. We have to all cultivate a ruthless degree of self honesty, even about the things we hold most dear. And this is often against every instinct when we are in pain.
If I am not here over the weekend, bless you all, friends in America and around the world: may you have a time of peace and quiet reflection. I will leave you with one final thought about threats with no defence other than initial prevention: it could have been a similar attack on a nuclear reactor.
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Congratulations, Mav!
Let me buy you that whiskey you were refering to. Cheers!
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I believe above all in recognising the reality of the world around me...We have to all cultivate a ruthless degree of self honesty, even about the things we hold most dear. And this is often against every instinct when we are in pain.
How very true. You should know. I guess all I can do is
TRY to cultivate this more, because sometimes I believe I am being self-honest, but go ahead and do what I know I shouldn't, anyway.
Congratulations on your new title, Sweetie.
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