#41451
09/12/2001 3:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Starting this thread for discussion about remedy and/or respone.
“We will make no distinction between the terrorists
who commit these acts and those who harbor them.”
-G.W. Bush
This is a major policy change and signals the US will not only go after the terrorist but the country/countries that harbor him/them.
Security comment : I am one of the offenders when it comes to hating to check my baggage. I travel light and want to keep bag on plane ... but I really think that from now on carry-on, except for one small purse for women or, for men an attache case should be the limit for carry-on luggage. Both inspected before boarding. The Israeli Airline El Al has very strict rules about baggage and carry-on luggage ... perhaps we should take a leaf from El Al's book.
Obviously this attack need heavy financing .... my instinct is to "follow the money" and once found, seize it. Without the money ....
We hear on Boston TV that there is suspicion concerning several men who entered Canada, took the ferry from Canada to Maine then boarded a plane from Portland to Boston.
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#41452
09/12/2001 4:30 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,467 |
Ann:
Yes, it is a major policy change and it is fraught with danger because it is a decision taken in a moment of passion -- understandable passion, but passion nonetheless, and it can actually have more far-reaching implications than did the triggering events.
From the moment I heard the first report of this dastardly act (series actually) I felt Osama Bin Laden was the most likely suspect. But on reflection he's not the only suspect. And quite possibly not the best suspect. I was struck pretty hard by a statement I heard during the coverage yesterday, "These people knew how to fly sophisticated passenger airliners. Where in Afghanistan can you get that kind of training?"
Certainly, unlike WW II kamikaze pilots, they didn't have to know how to take off, since someone else did that for them, but just as certainly they killed or incapacitated the pilots and took control themselves.
But they weren't perfect. One plane went down many miles from a target, and the one at the Pentagon actually hit the ground short and then bounced up and into the building. That probably saved a whole bunch of lives.
As usual, I've digressed.
Even if Bin Laden is behind this, the most logical conclusion is that the training was done elsewhere. And, in my mind, such sophisticated training implies the assets of a state government behind the scenes, probably actively involved. Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya, and North Korea are the immediate candidates. But if the terrorists were trained in Libya at the behest of Bin Laden, do we become a rogue nation by squashing the Afghani Taliban? Personally I think the Taliban in and of themselves are beneath contempt, but it IS their country and they have a right to run it any old way they see fit. If the people in Afghanistan who don't like it don't do something to stop it, who are we or England or Australia or Germany to do something to stop them? But if Bin Laden is in their country legally and has done nothing against their laws, can we be morally right in punishing Afghanistan for actions Bin Laden has instigated in other countries?
Quoting someone else, "Revenge is best served cold."
In sorrow and in anger,
TEd
TEd
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#41453
09/12/2001 4:52 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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personally, I haven't got a clue. but I think we should all be interested in what the fourth estate is saying. here's an early entry from the Washington Post: http://msnbc.com/news/627549.asp?cp1=1
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#41454
09/12/2001 4:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
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If the actions against us were intended--by a faction of madmen *not representative of Islam--to produce a conflict that could be defined as one between the Islamic world as infidels, then we are best advised to respond judiciously and with great restraint. A counter attack against this crime must be conducted in terms of the justice of civil-society, for it is civil society that is under attack. We cannot accept was has been thrust upon us with carnage and destruction in terms defined by our adversaries. To do so would be to hand them victory and threatens destruction beside which yesterdays would pale to vanishing. This is not a muslim assault against civil society. It was an action of madmen and fanatics. Terrorism, if it can be, must be ended, but not by perpetrating terror on others.
There can be no question that governments harboring criminals of this kind can and must be treated as criminal.
Any suggestion that we use nuclear weapons is, if real, insane and if in bluff, irresponsible beyond belief.
Any threat against civilian populations would be criminal.
The United States will need to respond. How, I do not know. And I worry that there is sufficient wisdom in Washington.
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#41455
09/12/2001 6:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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The United States will need to respond. How, I do not know...
Follow the money trail. Somebody, some country, some group had to finance the attack.
I do not "blame" the Muslims ... nor do I believe any clear thinking person does ... it is a few ---i don't like to use the word but it fits here --- *dedicated, fanatic terrorists who perpetrated this senseless act against unarmed and innocent civilians.
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#41456
09/12/2001 7:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Reprisal against Muslims in this country is insane and un-American. The terrorists were undoubtedly Muslim fanatics, but we too have religious fanatics. Thank God they have not committed any attacks outside this country - the bombing of abortion clinics here is bad enough. Timothy McVeigh could have turned his hate towards some other country. And it is quite possible that the terrorists were not sheltered where they trained. They would have had reason to fear being betrayed for a reward.
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#41457
09/12/2001 7:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Reprisal against Muslims in this country is insane and un-American.
Yes - but unless this country acts promptly and firmly, individuals will vent their frustrated rage on whatever targets they can find. If we truly want to forestall reprisals against the innocent, we must see strong reprisals against the guilty.
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#41458
09/12/2001 7:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771 |
Yeahbut - the last time we acted promptly and firmly, anyone of Asian descent was promptly hauled off to an internment camp. No one needs to see that again either.
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#41459
09/12/2001 8:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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the last time we acted promptly and firmly, anyone of Asian descent was promptly hauled off to an internment camp. No one needs to see that again either.
True; the best choice would have been our military response, but without our camps response.
BUT if you're not allowed to pick and choose and demand perfection, would you have preferred that we do both, or that we do neither?
The best choice should not become the enemy of the good choice.
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#41460
09/12/2001 8:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
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<<The best choice should not become the enemy of the good choice.>>
And the good choice should not become the enemy of the people.
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#41461
09/12/2001 8:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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#41462
09/12/2001 9:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Does anyone have a photo of New York skyline before the attack (with the towers) and then a picture of the skyline now to add to Max's gallery?
Perhaps an old post card?
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#41463
09/12/2001 10:30 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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if you think the choices look difficult now, consider this scenario: it may prove out in the long run that these acts were those of a determined band of *independantly organized fanatics. I don't think this is too far out of the realm of possibilites; consider what was really needed: a dozen men (or less) with death wishes (that's apparently a given), 4 trained in how to steer a commercial jet (this also looks like reality from the reports out of Florida), and the rest in hijacking with sharp pointed objects (another given); 1 man with a plan; $3000 for tickets and rentals (probably less). given this scenario, and assuming that most of the gang expired in the act, how could we possibly ever expect to get satisfactory closure?
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#41465
09/13/2001 12:42 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 197
member
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member
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not to spoil everyone's political analysis, but i have something a bit more uplifting to share.
today classes were cancled for 2 hours so that the student body could attend a memorial service of sorts. chancelor, deans, student body president, 2 clergymen, and a school counselor among others spoke. there were prayers and songs (blowing in the wind and god bless america). the student government had arranged a collection to be sent to the red cross (i put in half of what was in my wallet, meager though it was), they had a blood collection today and another one scheduled for a week from today. as a form of peaceful protest they set up voter registration booths for the rest of the week (if they're going to kill us for our democracy this seems like a good way to fight back).
they have also set up some banners around campus on which people can write stories, emotions, thankfulnesses, or whatever else they wish to express. inselpeter, may i print out some of your words from the past few days and post them on one of these banners. they have moved me and i would like to share them.
my best wishes to us all in this time of pain and frustration.
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#41466
09/13/2001 1:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 428
addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2001
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it may prove out in the long run that these acts were those of a determined band of *independantly organized fanatics
tsuwm has expressed (better that I could have) my fears since the beginning of this ordeal. What if the madmen were not a vast organization of Islamic terrorists, but just a small group of fanatics? What if there is no one left to retaliate against? What if by attacking "major" terrorists or the nations that support them we are simply doing just what those behind the attacks wanted us to do?
I sincerely hope that the powers that be are considering this possibility, and are considering the fact that the very leads they are following may be falsely laid tracks leading away from the truth. If you were hijacking a plane, would you leave your car in the airport parking lot with flight instruction manuals and videos in your trunk (as has reportedly been found in Boston)?
I also hope that I am just being overly conspiracy-minded, and that we will find other people responsible for the destruction and punish them with "terrible fury" (in the words of Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy).
I am so glad Helen and Inselpeter are well, and my thoughts and love go out to all of those in NYC, Washington and all over the world who have suffered a personal loss.
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#41467
09/13/2001 1:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 460
addict
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addict
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Posts: 460 |
Wow -- I don't have a photo but I do have an image. Some time ago Max posted the following which I added to my desktop to send to a friend but never got round to it. Frightening, isn't it, in retrospect:
Type NYC (all caps) in a large size, say 72 point. Change the font to WEBdings - cute, isn't it? Now, change the font to WINGdings - anything but cute.
I've been reading the posts and thinking of you all -- my heart is with you.
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#41468
09/13/2001 2:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
There has been discussion of the Palestinians who danced in the streets and gave out candy to children. This is infuriating, and I was infuriated; but then I had to reflect on the reality of Palestinians, very many other Arabs, and Iranians. For three generations they have imbibed with their mothers' milk hatred of the Jews, Israel, America and Americans, who are the sponsors of Israel. It's reinforced all their lives long in their schools, mosques and families. Yet the vast majority of these people learn little else. Except for the privileged few, they live in squalor and ignorance worse than old-time European or Chinese peasants. They know no more of Jews, Israel, American and Americans than we know of Hottentots. Their lives are full of hate, desperation, envy of the more fortunate and even self-hatred. No wonder you can convince young men in the prime of life from this culture to voluntarily blow themselves up; they have little or nothing to lose and are told they have paradise to gain.
I heard on NPR an Israeli talking about an Arab fruitseller in Jerusalem who was dancing around the market, exulting, "Allaha be praised! The Americans are finished!" Poor deluded fool. Little does he know that we are far from being finished. On the contrary -- we are more united, more resolute to combat terrorism and terrorists, and more ready to do something about terrorism than we have ever been. So I'm prepared to be magnanimous to these deluded wretches who have been kept in poverty and ignorance by their leaders for decades. But as to their leaders? The recruiters who find bombers, the trainers, the planners?
If I were president, which thank God I am not, I would announce tomorrow that the U.S. Embassy will move next week to Jerusalem. Futher, that the U.S. will recognize Jerusalem as the permanent and undivided capitol of Israel and that the U.S. will oppose any effort to give any part of the city to any other entity. Then let's see who dances in the streets.
But here's another issue. It seems that the ignorant masses have been and are being taught that deeds like those of yesterday are pleasing to Allah and are enjoined by the Quran. I have heard from a number of Moslems that this is false and directly contrary to Islam and the Quran. If so, why are these people allowed to get away with this without contradiction? Where are the great clerics, the high-ranking mullahs, the ayatollahs, the professors at Al-Azhar who are supposed to have the last word on Islam and the interpretation of the Quran? Why are they not speaking out in the most forceful terms to denounce a perversion of Islam? I would be glad to hear from any of our board who may be Moslem about this.
Lastly, it is all very well and good for G.W. to look stern and assure the American people that those who harbor and assist terrorists will be punished the same as the perpetrators themselves. It is supposed that if it turns out to be Bin Laden, reprisal will fall on the Taliban. But it is well known that Bin Laden's wealth is in Saudi Arabia (millions) and that the Saudis forward money to him when he wants it and that they have taken no steps to sequestrate or seize his assets. If there is clear evidence that Bin Laden was behind the attack, are we going to take reprisals against the Saudis, who make funds available to him, even if it is his money? And risk having all that oil denied to us as well as to Europe and Japan? Will the Europeans and Japanese support us if (har-di-har-har) we decide the Saudis must be punished? I greatly fear that the question of reprisals will, in the end, be subject to a lot of political and economic considerations and careful analysis of what oxen will be gored. That's not how it should be.
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#41469
09/13/2001 2:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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The problem is I don't know if we command enough respect in the eyes of these beasts to react with authority anymore. We have been proven vulnerable too many times. I believe the roots of this all started 1. When the Carter Administration flinched on attacking when Iran took our hostages in '79. Yes, the lives of those 50 government workers could have been lost in such an attack and hindsight is 20/20, but they knew the risks involved in accepting a government job overseas, and we should've gone right in after them. The aborted rescue mission later was just an incidental after-fact. That's when our respect in the world starting slipping. And 2. In 1983 when we lost 283 Marines in Beirut (figure may be slightly off) the Reagan Administration knew they could do nothing, and did nothing except to divert a gullible public's attention by going into the pismire island-country of Granada to satisfy their need to strike out at "something." But, ultimately, those (or the country/countries) responsible were never brought to justice either by litigation or military response. Besides, Reagan and his cronies (including Bush, Sr.) were too busy covering their tracks of dealing arms to Iran as a gift for holding the hostages until he was assured of ascending to power...as soon as he lifted his hand from the Bible at his 1st inauguration, presto!...instant hostage release! But that's another story. After these two events it was open season on Americans, and then their Western allies as well...solitary hostages, plane blasts, European airports, etc. Once they found out they could strike at the US and get away with it, there was no turning back. And once a fanatic fuses politics with religion and is ready to die for their "cause," how do you stop them? I don't know if you can. Though squeamish about capital punishment, I've often said that after the first World trade Center bombing which I considered to be an act of war designed to destroy the towers and kill tens of thousands of innocent people, that the perps, immediately upon conviction, should've been marched against a wall on camera and executed by firing squad. Show them we will not fool around. But, of course, our sense of justice bequeathed these genoicidal maniacs to life terms in humane prisons...sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll. Unless they're in solitary for protection. If so I hope they immediately release these subhuman assholes to the general inmate population which I'm sure would be delighted to mete out thorough justice to them at this point. Yes, I believe in mercy and forgiveness, but there is a point where you have to draw a line in the sand, and I've reached it. The stakes are now clear...if you're an American, you die. Remember that cynical and insulting release of black hostages all through the '80's, as if African-Americans were going to fall for that ploy of differentiation. Well, the terrorists took care of that fable when they bombed the US embassies in Africa. But the problem is, it isn't just Americans...these genoical maniacs who think they speak for their Muslin God...they don't. And certanly not for the vast majority of the Muslin faithful, it really is a religion of peace, so I really fail to understand this constant slaughter of the innocent in the name of their God) are trying to take on the entire world...us, Russia, the Hindus in India, all of Western Europe, their own secular governments, everybody...it's just craziness! And the real problem is that if you convict and execute any of thes culprits they're very happy to be martyred for their cause, thank you, and are hailed and viewed as such...what's the point of killing people who are perfectly willing and happy to die? So where's the answer, people? I pray to see it...but I just don't know. And we can't afford to go out, now, and blast away at dubious targets like that grain factory in Sudan, or strike areas that will kill any innocent civilians. (Saddan Hussein...who I think is very culpable in this attack...but his name is not mentioned enough...this IS after all, the one and the same Bush administration he went to war with in '91, why wouldn't he take another shot at it? But maybe the Bushes don't want anybody to consider this?...anyway, Saddam is still sitting pretty in his royal palace, thank you, while 100,000 or so of his countrymen have died around him as th result (directly or indirectly) of the Gulf War, including an estimated 40,000 children...which shows and proves you have to kill the head, not just the body, or it doesn't go away). Violate the international law of political assassination instead of all these "collateral" innocent lives, or, ultimately, what we're witnessing today? YOU BET!! GO FOR IT!!! We have the technology and trained covert forces to get it done! Any proven mass-murdered or war criminal...Saddam, Bin Laden, etc. I don't think we have a choice. Not any more. But, ultimately, too, the sad reality is, that as long as there are people willing to die in suicide missions, what can the world do? And, what, for God's sake, do these people WANT??? How did it come to all this? 
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#41470
09/13/2001 4:32 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Whitman and Boby,
Reading your posts saddens me terribly.
"They" are not monolithic.
The Palestinians do not celebrate out of 'ignorance,' in a narrow sense of the word; they are among the most highly educated populations in the world. And if they are taught to hate us, so are we taught to hate them. Their complaints against Israel and the United States are not without reason.
Let us not invent the enemy, but find him and destroy him.
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#41471
09/13/2001 5:10 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 819
old hand
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old hand
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Yeahbut - the last time we acted promptly and firmly, anyone of Asian descent was promptly hauled off to an internment camp. No one needs to see that again either.
Funny you should mention that. Last Friday I attended a performance of Portland Taiko, a Japanese/American traditional drumming ensemble which is half drums and half theatre. One of their presentations was a memorial to the Japanese Americans who were deprived of their rights as Americans because of their race. There were photos from the Tule Lake, California camp projected on the stage during the spoken/played performance. These Japanese Americans bent, but did not break, when assaulted by the "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune," as Shakespears put it. Do we now want to snap in the force of the bitter wind that has blown upon our shores? Do we simply "cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war," or do we take the time to fully comprehend the who and what and why of the enemy? I do hope that the US government - one for which I did not vote - has more wisdom than I gave it credit for at the polls last November, and acts in a rational manner in this catastrophe.
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#41472
09/13/2001 7:47 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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#41473
09/13/2001 10:04 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
Dear Jo,
Your contribution contains all the aspects that seem important to me, too. And you put it masterfully. No need to add anything, in my view.
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#41474
09/13/2001 10:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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#41475
09/13/2001 12:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yes, insel, for clarity's sake let me say I agree with your assessment of the Palestinian situation, I have nothing against the Palestinians or any other people of the world. I don't know who "they" are...this handful of predators that changes from situation to situation. We could call them "whoever." In fact, "they" was even "us" in Oklahoma City. But when these handful of idiots are caught, in whatever situation, from hereon in they must be dealt with firmly.
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#41476
09/13/2001 2:43 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,439 |
Just checked and in my Email got this from the Internet version of http://www.armedforcesnews.com which is primarily for active duty and reserve forces and dependants. America Under Attack
Note From Don Mace, Publisher
In a time when our country is under attack it may seem
almost senseless to send you a routine issue of Armed Forces News. Today is of course not a routine day. It is a day when we lean heavily on ALL OF YOU who have sworn an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. We are the greatest nation in the world and we will bring these cowards to justice! It is a day when we reinforce our allegiance to the Commander in Chief. But it is also a day when all living Americans must continue to eat, sleep, buy groceries, send their children to school, and prepare for tomorrow. To do otherwise would hand these vicious cowards who attacked us an unacceptable victory. With this in mind we bring you this edition of Armed Forces News.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you – all of you.
Hold Fast,
Don MaceIn the face of what may yet come, please keep our soldiers, sailors and airmen -- and their families - in your hearts and prayers, especially those who died at the Pentagon in service to their country. Later EditArmed Forces recuitment center report that they have been inundated with young men and women coming in to sign up for active service. Memories of Dec. 7-8, 1941 fill my mind. One young high school woman on TV said she has often heard her Grandfather talk about where he was on Pearl Harbor Day and she said that she expects she will tell her children about where she was when the World Trade Center was attacked.
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#41477
09/13/2001 6:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Armed Forces recuitment center report that they have been inundated with young men and women coming in to sign up for active service.
Oh God. I pray they may never see active duty.
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#41478
09/13/2001 7:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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sorry if this goes back over old ground, but I haven't been able to join in today.
Permit an outlander to remark that there is more testosterone than cold logic being displayed in a few posts over the last 24 hours.
WO’N chooses the losing position with his suggestion Violate the international law of political assassination YOU BET!! GO FOR IT!!! We have the technology and trained covert forces to get it done! Any proven mass-murdered or war criminal... Who determines who is and is not a mass murderer – was Mr Bush Snr a mass murderer on the Basra road, was Kissinger a mass murderer in Laos and Cambodia…? I suggest that the winners of the wars write even most accepted history, so contemporary accounts from the combatants are even less likely to be accurate judgments on such momentous issues. If we start openly acting in the kind of way suggested we undermine all the values on which our civilisation is built: to paraphrase Thomas More from A Man For All Seasons “when you have chopped down the last tree in the legal forest, and the devil turns around and comes looking for you, where will you hide then?”
TEd rants We have made a career out of altruism…But we have let ourselves be pushed around once too often. Let the word go forth from this moment on YOU FUCK WITH US AT YOUR OWN PERIL. The first statement is as much of a nonsense as it would be about any trade empire the world has ever known – national self interest is pursued with largely ruthless self absorption whilst most citizens are content to not know what is done in their name. And about the final statement, the bitter truth is the guys who do this kind of act don’t care. Let me repeat this because this is fundamental: they do not care. You cannot usefully or effectively threaten anyone who does not care about your sanctions. But in truth, you guys know this – and your current expressions are borne out of natural anger and frustration.
And BYB says nobly that I'm prepared to be magnanimous to these deluded wretches from Palestine, 600 of whom have been murdered in the last 12 months by the armed forces of Israel who are armed and funded by the $3 billion per annum deducted from American taxes. Can you truly be serious in thinking that Israel’s claim to dominion over the multi-cultural centre of Jerusalem would lead to other than outright mayhem?
I note that two of our members who have most directly experienced the recent horrors seem to talk the most sense. I have been particularly struck by these words from inselpeter:
”we are best advised to respond judiciously and with great restraint. A counter attack against this crime must be conducted in terms of the justice of civil-society, for it is civil society that is under attack. We cannot accept… terms defined by our adversaries.”
And from Helen:
“we must stand and fight. not guns and missiles, not as much an armed retaliation, as a fundamental movement, to civility…. all of us, must act to contain the evil. in our own hearts, in our families, in our communities, in our governments.
we must not stand idly by, nor can we let our response be dictated by those who have so injured us. any response must be lawful, just and reasoned.. we can not cure this wrong by acting wrong.”
I hope that these lessons will be applied in the USA next time the begging bowl is passed around for fundraising on behalf of the IRA or the neo-nazi groups in the UK, both of which could not exist to practice their terror without American funding. Hyla was also right in his very thoughtful piece:
“At the same time, I have some hope that this will change the way Americans act in this world. Ted is right, that we have contributed in huge ways in this world, but we have also shown great arrogance in how we operate.”
A sleeping giant waking, Ann? Well, I hope so: but waking to the true responsibilities engendered by world economic domination, rather than just to bust up the guys in the black hats.
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#41479
09/13/2001 7:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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thank you mav. i think it is easier for both inselpeter and i to be reasoned, as bad as our city has been hurt, we both know, first hand, this is a serious injury, but not a fatal blow.
i think back to the floods we has some years ago, when all of the mississippi valley, from canada to the gulf bay was flooded to some degree. a devistating flood, and now, a few years later, its hard to remember.
it will be harder to forget this, since it was a deliberate act, but in a shorter time than you can imagine, it will be hard to remember the year... we look and say was that 2001? or 2002?.. NY will go on, it will be better and stronger.
the news just reported, Morgan stanly, in WTC north, (first building hit,) has accounted for over 34XX employees, and only 37 are still missing.. these numbers are heartening. the news about the firemen, the news about regular "tapping" is good too, since we know there are more survivors.
what is most scary, most threatening, is the thought that this event will cost us our liberty. one difficulty about the dead and wounded, is no one in US is reguired to "carry papers". We have a freedom here, of life, of movement, of press, of person. i do not want to lose the forest of law, now, each leaf is precious.
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#41480
09/13/2001 8:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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I'll continue to come back (perhaps incessantly) to this point: if we arrive at a place where we must make a reasoned response to an act of jihad by a band of religious zealots, our hands are (once again) tied; for there very likely is no reasoned response -- or rather, the reasoned response will be (once again) no response.
but. this is not a *politically viable response.
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#41481
09/13/2001 11:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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there is more testosterone than cold logic being displayed in a few posts over the last 24 hours
I think people were just looking for a safe place to vent the anger and sorrow ...
A sleeping giant waking, Ann? Well, I hope so: but waking to the true responsibilities engendered by world economic domination, rather than just to bust up the guys in the black hats.
Yes, you are absolutely right.
AS a mother with with a son in the Army, in a Light Infantry Division, I am in no hurry to see our Armed Forces deployed.
Many of the Morgan Stanley Dean Witter folks in WTC were people my late brother Joe did business with. The Portsmouth NH offices of the firm (where Joe was a VP) is in shock. It's a terrible time and I do not think life will ever be the same.
We are at the beginning of a long process and I hope it is well thought through and judiciously carried out.
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#41482
09/14/2001 12:04 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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While it is perfectly understandable that some would disagree with those of us who favor more aggressive courses, I resent that aggressive positions are here denigrated as mere testosterone responses.
That is ad hominem argument, not reasoned discussion.
Let us end calling posts that disagree with us "rants" and "nonsense". It is not productive, indeed not even relevant, to claim that people were "murdered by the armed forces of Israel", and then suggest that Bush Sr. and Kissinger was each "a mass murderer". I find it odious to even suggest that those past events are to be equated with the events of last Monday.
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#41483
09/14/2001 1:15 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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I think this quote from Dave Barry's article that Max posted is appropriate here:
That's what's so hard to comprehend: They want us to die just for being Americans. They don't care which Americans die: military Americans, civilian Americans, young Americans, old Americans. Baby Americans. They don't care. To them, we're all mortal enemies. The truth is that most Americans, until Tuesday, were only dimly aware of their existence, and posed no threat to them. But that doesn't matter to them; all that matters is that we're Americans.
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#41484
09/14/2001 1:27 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
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our government has named Osama Bin Laden as the guy. I just watched a Frontline special http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/which details what we know about him. they found losts of important Muslim/Islam figures to say good things about him -- he is regarded as a hero by many of his Saudi countrymen. this is not going to be pretty.
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#41485
09/14/2001 2:32 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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It sure isn't. But I do espy a kind of hope, as Friar Lawrence said. From other reports I have been hearing, I suspect that the Taliban may be at least considering the possiblity of handing bin Laden over. And I think that Sec. Powell's approach to the Pakistanis is to enlist them to put pressure on the Taliban to do that. The Taliban seem to be counting up their cards and may decide that bin Laden is not worth U.S. reprisals on an already impoverished country (partly their own work, but that's another story). If indeed bin Laden is the culprit, or one of them, that would be an optimal outcome. But we'll see.
Having said that, I must echo the comments of, I believe it was, Keiva. For all you pacifists there, I respect your opinions and your position, and your right to express them, but please try to exercise logic and make your arguments relevant. What the Israelis, Bush I, Nixon, et al. may do or have done, is irrelevant. And I don't accept your arguments that reprisal is a) subhuman, irrational or caused by excess of testosterone, b) what the terrorists want, c) some sort of vindication of the terrorists' positions or beliefs, d) doomed to failure, starting a new round of violence, etc. I take it that you believe we should do nothing except tut-tut like a bunch of schoolmarms. Well, we've been doing that too long and what has it got us? Pacifism is a noble philosophy, and would be preferable to 99.99% of all wars ever fought, but it is dangerous in the extreme in situations involving a real threat by the truly evil. If the pacifists had prevailed in 1939, 1940, 1941, what would the world be like now? No, my friends, face it -- there is such a thing as genuine evil, which must be resisted and crushed, even if it takes deadly force and mass destruction and the sacrifice of many innocent sons and daughters of innocent men and women. For evil to triumph all it takes is for well-meaning people to stand back and refuse to do what has to be done to end it. No same person wants war and its consequences (which always turn out worse than intended), but the alternative is unthinkable. I hope and pray we may yet be able, by measured and appropriate measures, to capture or neutralize the big scorpions wherever they have their nests and thereby deter or cripple the little ones. We'll never get them all, I suppose, but we can make a start.
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#41486
09/14/2001 5:18 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
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Like everyone else, I am still in a state of shock and horror over Tuesday’s events. I thank God that Helen and Inselpeter, the only two people I know in New York, are safe and well and my heart goes out to the families of those who are not.
If anything deserves retaliation this does. But:
Last Christmas Eve some churches in Jakarta were bombed (including the church I go to – by God’s grace that bomb was found and dealt with before it exploded, but the intent was there and other bombs were not found in time). Would the members of the congregations affected be justified in retaliating against whoever planted the bombs or were behind it? Why or why not?
Maluku and Central Sulawesi have been in a state of near anarchy for some time now with fighting between Christians and Muslims. Both sides have committed outrages. Are those affected on either side justified in retaliating? Why or why not?
Suicide bombers have been at work in Israel. Are the Israelis justified in retaliating against the Palestinians they believe are harbouring the organisation responsible? Why or why not? Conversely many innocent Palestinians have died in Israeli attacks. Are Palestinians justified in retaliating? Why or why not?
Irish terrorists have exploded bombs in London. Would Britain be justified in sending in some sort of attack force into Ireland? Why or why not?
What all this is leading up to is this question: if we are drawing lines at what point does retaliation become justified? When we (whoever "we" are) are the ones hurt? When we have the power to do so? When a certain number of people (which is what?) are killed?
I don't know. I'm only asking.
Bingley
Bingley
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#41487
09/14/2001 9:26 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
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Ken and Bob, I would not have even bothered to engage in dialogue with you if I did not respect your opinions and want to let you know there are alternative perspectives available on this desperate mess. I knew my views were unlikely to be popular in your ears, but perhaps I should clarify a few points since my arguments have been misunderstood in some respects.
I’ll do this short style to keep it as clear as I can.
1. I detest and abhor the actions of the zealot madmen who perpetrated the outrage and consider it an act of barbaric evil.
2. I am not a pacifist, and (to repeat my earlier remark) I believe reprisals should be taken in cold blood.
3. I believe that all reprisals should be taken within the law of civilisation which we seek to defend – in principal, if the USA tries to act as judge & jury & executioner in the manner suggested, it will have undermined the very basis for rational action and will have descended to nothing better than lynch law and an exposition that “might is right”.
4. It is clear to me that an imperative of dealing with terrorists is to detach them from their support base.
5. To do this it is vital to understand those who show ill will in a general way – vide “…Americans. They don't care. To them, we're all mortal enemies…” The people shown dancing in the streets in Palestine are IMHO sick bastards; but that people can show such extraordinarily inhuman ill-will has to be understood if it is to be fixed.
6. I believe the USA’s history of action in the wider world since the second world war is crucially relevant to gaining this understanding. You may not be comfortable with this fact, but it is true that even amongst America’s many friends there is a widespread perception that the USA government pursues its long-term goals with a ruthless disregard for the competitive interests of other peoples on this planet, and has often behaved in ways that are illegal and wrong.
7. I do not personally believe Bush Snr can be viewed as a mass murderer – I raised this as a question to illustrate the fact that there are some who do and who come to a very different world-view as a consequence. You may not like this fact – but it is a fact, and one that we have to come to terms with in order to be able to live in a more or less peaceable world.
8. I raised the issue of the Palestinians because in my view until the western world comes to a balanced appraisal of this incessant tribal warfare, there can never be any resolution. This was in response to the suggestion that the USA should change its stance in relation to these parties by adopting a bellicose and even more partisan position. [Personally, the only thing that makes sense that I can understand is a viable state for Palestinians and another for Israelis, both mutually recognising each other’s right to existence and the pursuit of freedom and happiness, but that is a red herring at this juncture.]
9. I think it is crystal clear that all major powers act in a manner dictated by expedience rather than morality, and indeed all that it takes for an evil course of action to prevail is for good men to do nothing. That is why it is vital that we do not allow idiots to brand this as a “war” when it is a despicable act of terror, why we cannot let anyone suppose there is any quick fix available no matter what force is thrown in the scales, and why the only way in which we can improve our long-term hopes is to learn the ultimate lesson that there is no Them and Us – there is only us. We have to change our own hearts as well as our neighbours’. Of course, this does not make for good TV.
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#41488
09/14/2001 9:35 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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#41489
09/14/2001 11:14 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
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Images of hundreds of Palestinians spontaneously celebrating must have caused deep revulsion among Americans and many others who were horrified by the suicide hijack attacks and the ensuing carnage.
Like the attacks themselves, assuming that they were indeed the work of Islamic or Arab terrorists - which may not be the case - those images of jubilation carried a message which will almost certainly be ignored.
Rather than prompting a serious attempt to address the question Why?, both are likely to widen the gulf of miscomprehension and drastically envenom the situation.
The fact is that for more than five decades, in defiance of countless UN resolutions and of international law, the Palestinians' land has been occupied and their rights ignored by Israel, with full diplomatic cover and open-ended financial and military backing from Washington.
So for many Palestinians, Israel and the US are virtually one and the same thing.
That is why the awesome atrocity triggered jubilation among many ordinary Palestinians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1540000/1540364.stm
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#41490
09/14/2001 12:43 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
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An interesting view from within Israel: with or without Islamic fundamentalism, with or without Arab terrorism, there is no justification whatsoever for the lasting occupation and suppression of the Palestinian people by Israel. We have no right to deny Palestinians their natural right to self-determination. Two huge oceans could not shelter America from terrorism; the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza by Israel has not made Israel secure — on the contrary, it makes our self-defense much harder and more complicated. The sooner this occupation ends, the better it will be for Palestinians and Israelis alike.
It is all too easy and tempting now to fall into all sorts of racist clichés about "Muslim mentality" or "Arab character" and other such rubbish. The horrendous crime committed against New York and Washington is a sharp reminder that this is not a war between religions, nor a struggle between nations. This is, once more, the battle between fanatics for whom the end — any end, be it religious, nationalistic or ideological — sanctifies the means, and the rest of us who ascribe sanctity to life itself.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/14/opinion/14OZ.html
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