#40649
09/03/2001 3:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
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Can anyone supply the origin of the terms "brown nose" and "brownie points", which I presume are related?
(I ran into a historical tidbit that suggests a source - but only if I add to the data a "guess" from which to leap to a conclusion.)
To keep this interesting, may I suggest that this question be a "no OED" zone: we pick our own collective brains and, for the moment, bar any look-up in word-related sources?
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#40650
09/03/2001 4:07 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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were I not barred, I might be tempted to suggest that the origin may be obvious. -ron
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#40651
09/03/2001 4:17 PM
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Tsuwm, the bar emphatically does not apply to your brain (which is highly sought), but merely to your ICLIU.
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#40652
09/03/2001 4:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Not related except by brown, surely?
The Brownies wear brown uniforms and collect brownie points for their good deeds.
Brown nosing is the unstated obvious; Private Eye perhaps made it more prominent with their award of the OBN (Order of the Brown Nose).
It wouldn't have occurred to me to connect the two, but now that you've done so I'm afraid the image will never leave my mind. Those poor Brownies. :)
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#40653
09/03/2001 4:31 PM
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Brown nosing and gaining Brownie points are DEFINITELY NOT related.
Brownies are a division of the Girl Guides for younger ladies. When you learn to master a specific task you get points and badges. For the Brownies (6 and 7 year olds) the tasks are relatively simple...learning how to make a simple breakfast, arts & crafts and the likes. The term Brownie points came to mean accumulating points for doing good things and is a positive expression.
Brown nosing on the other hand is a negative expression. It is related to that common expressing - kissing the boss' ass. Publicly agreeing with everything he's says weather he right or wrong, fawning over him, etc… When you are brown nosing you are kissing it so close that, well, you get the picture.
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#40654
09/03/2001 4:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
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The Brownies are girls who have recently joined the Girl Scouts. But brownie points is often a sarcastic reference to unadmirable men currying favor by use of demeaning ingratiating tactics, which are less degrading than those called brown nosing.
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#40655
09/03/2001 4:52 PM
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The term Brownie points came to mean accumulating points for doing good things and is a positive expression.
Not necessarily positive, as I understand it. It can also mean measuring "merit" by an compusive, computational and mechanical toting of minutia.
Anyone else familiar with the derogatory usage? Is this an area where perhaps British and US usages differ?
Dating may be a clue. The US Girl scouts were founding in 1912 and, as I understand, the Brownies somewhat later. Does the term brownie points predate this?
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#40656
09/03/2001 5:23 PM
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>Anyone else familiar with the derogatory usage? Is this an area where perhaps British and US usages differ?
I'm guessing that the derogatory usage started in the U.S. and predated the Brownies co-option of the term.
p.s. - I've just discussed this with an ex-(US)-Brownie, and she claims they never earned Brownie points, but rather awards -- maybe it's the Brownie Points that are a UK usage.
she also tells me that Girl Scouts is US and Girl Guides UK, but Brownies are junior divisions of both.
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#40657
09/04/2001 12:23 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
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Soon after cameras were invented, there was a great effort made to get cameras into everybody's hands. Those who could not afford a camera outright would buy points at 1/100th the cost of the camera, to be pasted into a book much like US Savings Stamps, which only USn old timers will remember. The Brownie points could then be redeemed for an inexpensive Kodak camera called a Brownie, hence the term brownie points.
Brown-nose is a derogatory term derived from the fanciful idea that a Pinocchio-like person would lie so much and kiss the boss's ass so much that his nose would be turned up until it met the kisser's forehead. Hence brow-nose, which soon became brown-nose.
Actually, there isn't a word of truth in the foregoing two paragraphs. Except that Kodak did make a Brownie camera. There's still one floating around in our family, belonging to one of my brothers. A simple box camera that used either 120 or 620 size film, I think the former.
Brownie point according to the Dictionary of American Slang, which is sitting open on my lap, is defined as "[from the point system used for advancement by the Brownies of the Girl Scouts but strongly reinforced by BROWN-NOSE]. a credit toward advancement or good standing, esp. when gained by servility, opportunism, or the like."
In the same source, brown-nose is "[of scatalogical inspiration but now considered vulgar} Originally Mil.(itary) a toady; an obsequious sycophant." This dictionary gives a 1938 citation followed by a host of others from the 40s and 50s.
TEd
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#40658
09/04/2001 3:42 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
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Just a speculative theory. But back in a more rural, small-town era ladies' "bake-offs" were quite the annual event. Women became famous in town for making the best pies, cakes, cookies, etc. And brownies were high on the list of importance (along with pumpkin pie and a few others). So, perhaps, the expression as applied to "getting on the good side of a lady" with compliments, charm, or mannerful gestures relates to that, especially when awarding her brownies points as an easy way of getting on her good side...but then you have to earn them back with proof of your sincerity. Or maybe it was simply taken from complimenting a woman on her culinary expertise.
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#40659
09/04/2001 8:36 AM
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
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addict
Joined: Feb 2001
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Anyone else familiar with the derogatory usage? (of Brownie Points)
To me (in UK) the phrase Brownie points is neutral, with any positive or derogatory implications provided by context, tone, etc.
"He's too busy collecting Brownie Points to do anything really useful", or "Doing a good job on this won't get you a bonus directly, but it will add to your Brownie points".
Rod
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#40660
09/04/2001 8:44 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>To me (in UK) the phrase Brownie points is neutral
I agree. I rely on friends for child-care from time to time and feel that I have to have enough brownie points in hand to feel able to ask them. It just means that I don't want to take more than I give.
I don't think Brownies do get points, they get badges but I guess that is where it comes from.
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#40661
09/04/2001 1:05 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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A) Welcome back, Jo.
2) It never occurred to me that brown-nose and brownie points weren't connected, but then I never was in the Brownies®.
Þ) Used to have a certain affection for the baseball team.
I've even eaten some, regular and magic ones.
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#40662
09/04/2001 7:32 PM
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Posts: 2,605
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#40663
09/04/2001 9:12 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
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In French Canada we have Girl Guides and Boy Scouts, and Brownies definitely get points. Mind you, I was a Brownie many moons ago and that whole system may have changed at the same time as the postman became a letter carrier.
When is Bean back? I'd would be nice to get her input for English Canada - plus she is younger than I, so she may just throw my whole explanation a kilter
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#40664
09/05/2001 2:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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I don't really have anything to add to what has been posted by my learned friends. I would like to point out what a blessing new, colorful expressions are. Can you imagine a small group standing around the water cooler in the office and someone saying, "Oh, yes, that Eustace. What an obsequious sycophant he is!"
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#40665
09/05/2001 11:36 AM
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For UK usage of brownie points as a belittling term, see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_765000/765184.stm
yeahbut®
They were using this as an ironic pun on the politician's name, not, I think, as a derogatory usage.
The way I would define typical UK usage of this term is neutral in itself, but sometimes with an ironic context. In a similar fashion with another neutral term I might say:
"Margaret is very pretty" (neutral descriptive phrase)
or:
"Margaret is very pretty....!" (subtext: "but she's a complete airhead!"
The context will convey your attitude as to whether the brownie points in question are admirable or pathetically egregious.
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#40666
09/05/2001 3:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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"Oh, yes, that Eustace. What an obsequious sycophant he is!"Oh, Bob! I love it! I nearly pulled a bel and sprayed my keyboard! Oh, DO tell me you have done that sometime, won't you? Oh, every time I read it, I laugh harder! 
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#40667
09/05/2001 3:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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[just because I've got this cluttering up my drive and have little use for it]
minion
toady
lackey
lickspittle
bootlicker
claque
myrmidon
factotum
sycophant
truckler
panderer
fawner
flunky
stooge
kowtower
groveler
apple-polisher
brown-nose
kiss-ass
pickthank (archaic)
toadeater (archaic)
tufthunter
earwig
clawback
limberham (archaic)
running dog
Gnatho [gnathonic, obs]
smooger
[suggestions welcomed]
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#40668
09/05/2001 4:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
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addict
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A glorious list, tsuwm! I particularly like "smooger."
As to factotum - I haven't typically heard this with the connotation of obsequious sycophant, but rather in the sense of "one who does a little bit of everything" from the Latin fare + totum.
Do others hear the negative connotation in this?
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#40669
09/05/2001 6:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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I don't hear anything negative about factotum either. To me it is as Hyla says, someone who does a little bit of everything. I sometimes refer to my job title as factotal engineer.
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#40670
09/05/2001 6:33 PM
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Posts: 10,542
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I'll admit that factotum is at one end of the spectrum of minions, but (in literature) the factotum is often a faithful manservant who not only does "a little bit of everything" for his master, but will actually do *anything.
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#40671
09/05/2001 6:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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who ... will actually do *anything.
Well, I'll be honi-soited
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#40672
09/05/2001 6:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
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My OED says: facare=do,make and totum = the whole factotum : a person with delegated general powers or a servant who manages all his Master's affairs.
Well now......
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#40673
09/05/2001 10:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
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wow, I think we both got our Latin roots a bit wrong. I was in a rush and wrote fare, which is Italian rather than Latin, and only realized it when I read your "facare." Saving the true Latin mavens on the board a bit of trouble, I'll correct us both and note that it should in fact be facere.
And I think I'll go try to use "lickspittle" in office conversation and see what happens.
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#40674
09/06/2001 1:55 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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A great list, Tsuwm. It says something about the human race that there should be such a large number of words to describe a certain type of person. Surely you have the same phenomenon the other way; i.e., that there are a goodly number of synonyms for a certain nice or honorable or lovable type, but it seems that words proliferate more for the bad types. Think how many there are for "busybody" or "bluenose" or "upstart" etc. Indeed, we could start a new game or contest for gathering synonyms for types of people.
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#40675
09/06/2001 9:05 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094 |
It says something about the human race that there should be such a large number of words to describe a certain type of person.
Yeah, think of all the synonyms for prostitute.
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