#39229
08/23/2001 11:04 AM
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Where does this expression come from? I know what it means, something like being in control of a situation, making the relevant decisions and so on, especially when that means other people or groups follow your lead. But I am curious as to its origin. Any takers? 
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#39230
08/23/2001 11:07 AM
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Maybe pool or snooker? When people with actual skill play (in stark contrast to myself  ), don't they usually say which ball they're going to hit into which pocket? I thought that was "calling the shots". Hopefully someone better than me at snooker or pool can clarify that.
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#39231
08/23/2001 11:44 AM
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Having studied under a shipmate who could talk a mean game of pool I am in a position to maintain that a good player, once given a shot and a reasonably workable table, can control the game by leaving the ball in an advatageous postion for himself or, failing that, in a disadvantageous position for his opponent. He can gain a certain psychological advantage by calling his shots (and making them, of course) as he proceeds to clear the table of his balls.
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#39232
08/23/2001 12:59 PM
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I thought that at least in some games of pool, sinking a ball without having announced that you intended to sink it meant you could not add it to your score.
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#39233
08/23/2001 1:08 PM
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sinking a ball without having announced that you intended to sink it
I've mostly only played that rule for the eight ball. In the version wherein you have the low or high balls depending on the rack-breaking shot and must sink the eight ball (neither high nor low) to consumate your win (early sinking or the eight ball was an automatic loss) sinking the eight ball in any other than the pocket named also constituted a loss.
It just occurred to me that one who assigns the targets to individual gunners would also be said to "call the shots".
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#39234
08/23/2001 1:32 PM
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I thought that at least in some games of pool, sinking a ball without having announced that you intended to sink it meant you could not add it to your score.As I alluded to above, my friends and I are all aware of this fact, but if we actually followed that rule, no game would ever be finished! I think pool as it is actually played by the masses is somewhat more lenient than what you see on TV.
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#39235
08/23/2001 1:43 PM
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indeed, in some variations of pocket billiards you *must call all of your shots. cf. The Hustler, the classic pool movie starring Paul Newman and Jackie Gleason. they played 'straight pool', wherein after 14 (of 15) balls have been sunk they are re-racked and the 15th ball is shot in such a way as to either break up the rack (usually with the cue ball) or to leave the cue hidden behind the rack (called a safe shot or safety). in the latter instance you have to call 'safety'. The Billiard Congress of America (BCA) calls this game "14.1 Continuous" -joe (i am not a shark) cool http://www.bca-pool.com/play/rules/rls_141.shtmlp.s. - what you see on TV these days (at least on ESPN) is almost exclusively 9-ball. (see the link for official BCA rules) amazingly, in 9-ball you *don't have to call your shots. but. if you can't run the table off the break (which implies not only being able to call your shot, but being able to plan how you're going to run out after the break!) more than half the time, you won't win on TV.
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#39236
08/23/2001 3:50 PM
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I cannot remember from what corner of my brain this factoid's slumber is roused, but I rather thought calling the shot referred to the officer commanding or sighting a battery of guns.
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#39237
08/24/2001 2:05 AM
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Calling the shots is what the Gunner's Mate does (did) so that the gun or battery (be it ship borne or land based) could eventually hit its target. The impact point of each round was relayed back to the Gunnery Officer, changes were made to the inclination and/or azimuth (direction) of the gun/s - and whammo.
It was originally used for land based battles, with the observations made on the high ground and signalled back to the gun/s. Subsequently adapted for sea battles, +/- air or satellite support to call the shots. Nowadays controlled by radar, laser and/or video. Often wire guided as well.
stales
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#39238
08/24/2001 2:28 AM
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the Word Detective wades in (this is from one of his long issues that includes this towards the end, so I'll just shoot the whole thing in here): Dear Word Detective: I am trying to find the origin of the phrase "call the shots" to use it in a sermon which asks the question "Who is calling the shots, you or God?" I have searched many web sites with no luck. -- Jim Mol, St. Mark Lutheran Church, Flint, Michigan.
Well, there's your problem. Haven't you heard? The web is over. Yeah, they all got fired and now they have to give back their Porsches and take jobs at Burger King, boo hoo. Anyway, there's been nobody home on the internet for quite a while. If you don't believe me, check out some of those news web sites. They've still got George Bush being President.
To "call the shots" means, of course, to be in control, to make the decisions, to run the show and to be the one truly in charge, especially as opposed to being merely a nominal leader or figurehead. Speaking of President Bush the Younger, and I report this solely to illustrate that definition, a recent poll indicates that around half of all Americans believe that someone other than Mr. Bush is actually "calling the shots" and running the government. Whether that perception is cynical or optimistic is, of course, best left as an exercise for the reader.
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "calling the shots" seems to be a surprisingly recent phrase, having first appeared in print in the late 1960s, although it was probably in use as oral slang for years or even decades before someone thought to use it in print. An earlier phrase, "to call one's shots," meaning to announce exactly what one is going to do, apparently was current by the 1930s.
The real question, of course, is what all this shooting is about, and in the case of both "call the shots" and "call one's shots" the answer seems to be target shooting. In "calling one's shots," a target shooter (think Annie Oakley or the like) would announce in advance exactly where the target would be hit as a measure of his or her prowess. If someone else were "calling the shots," however, the shooter would be taking orders and hitting targets at that person's direction.
Note: Since the above column ran in newspapers I have been innundated with mail helpfully letting me know that "calling the shots" comes from the game of billiards or pool, wherein the player announces his shots in advance ("Eight ball in the side pocket" and so forth). Prior to researching the phrase, I, too, had assumed that it came from billiards, but the earliest citations I could find clearly refer to target shooting. That "calling the shots" occurs in billiards is clearly true. That it originated there is not. http://www.word-detective.com/052301.html
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#39239
08/24/2001 2:55 AM
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"The Called Shot", the fabled home run hit by Babe Ruth in the 1932 World Series (I believe), when he supposedly pointed to the spot where the ball landed in the the outfield stands just before the pitch, is another famous use of the term (phrases from baseball?). Well after Annie Oakley, but certainly before the 1960s. (And, AnnaS...Babe Ruth was a Chicago Cub then!)
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#39241
08/24/2001 3:34 AM
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Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!  Aw, I just wanted to see if all our baseball freaks were on their toes!  but I must let my unseemly treasonous error stand...wow's gonna love this one...and me, once the walking baseball encyclopedia...ah, well And Ruth finished his career out with the Boston Braves, never did don a Cubbie uniform...sorry, folks! But I did get two great baseball sites to bookmark out of my embarrassment!...thanks, tsuwm! And I was just going to open Misc. with 101 new posts on it. Think I'll sign-off and go to sleep, now, instead. My apologies to The Babe!....and to the Yankees, too! Again...ouch! 
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#39242
08/24/2001 3:15 PM
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Goodness, WO'N, you should apologize profusely. The Cubs, at least in modern history, have not had any first-class player, even one in the twilight of his career. I believe it was the Cubs who employed the only one-armed player in the major leagues. Now, here's a challenge: without looking it up, can you name the one-armed player? I can; my father saw him play and told me about it.
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#39243
08/24/2001 3:36 PM
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Pete Gray and he played for the St. Louis Browns, not the Cubs. 1945, if memory serves. There's a movie about it called Winners Never Quit. YCLIU.
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#39244
08/24/2001 3:45 PM
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Pete Gray it was. My father's take was that with the war on, there were so few men available they had to settle for him. And damn, it was the Browns, not the Cubs. The only team worse than the Cubs (or the Senators).
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#39245
08/24/2001 3:53 PM
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Ruth finished his career out with the Boston Braves
Which brings up an interesting question. What did Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth and Willie Mays have in common? Besides being 1-2-3 in career home runs.
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#39246
08/24/2001 4:10 PM
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but there has been a more recent one-arm player in the majors -- a pitcher!
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#39247
08/24/2001 4:32 PM
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#39248
08/24/2001 4:35 PM
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a more recent one-arm player in the majors
Or maybe just one-handed?
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#39249
08/24/2001 4:38 PM
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Nope
Nope
Nope (well maybe, but)
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#39250
08/24/2001 4:44 PM
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#39251
08/24/2001 4:47 PM
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#39252
08/24/2001 4:57 PM
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#39254
08/24/2001 5:02 PM
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Seufz
It's relatively rare.
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#39255
08/24/2001 5:38 PM
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The Cubs, at least in modern history, have not had any first-class player, even one in the twilight of his career.
And what is Sammy Sosa, pray tell?
e.g. tied with Ruth and McGuire for most seasons of 50+ home runs.
(I expect to serve you an extra helping of crow after the close of this season.)
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#39256
08/24/2001 7:27 PM
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#39257
08/24/2001 7:32 PM
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The suspense is killing musick.
I forget the question. Oh, wait, yeah, that question.
The clue: Ruth finished his career out with the Boston Braves.
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#39258
08/24/2001 8:16 PM
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Ruth, Mays and Aaron all played for two different teams in respective cities: Ruth for the Boston Red Sox and Braves (bookending his years with the Yankees), Mays the NY Giants and Mets, and Aaron the Milwaukee Braves and Brewers (this in addition to being the only members of the 600-homer club (so far)).
it should be noted that Ruth was regularly hitting 50 in the '20s when no one else came close to it. nowadays Brady frappin' Anderson hits 50!
-ron obscurity
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#39259
08/24/2001 8:39 PM
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And remember the tremendous difference in the ball Babe Ruth was hitting for homers in the twenties. It was a beanbag comparied to today's rabbit ball.
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#39260
08/24/2001 11:15 PM
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I think tsuwm's right...but what about slugging percentage? Fergie Jenkins pitched for the Cubs, and Billy Williams was a top rate player. And I just saw a spot on the news that there's a guy in Canada who customizes maple bats for many of today's players, including Barry Bonds, as opposed to the traditional Louisville Slugger ash bats. The bats have a larger "sweet spot" and harder wood... now let's just give one of those to Ruth or Mays or Ted Williams hi, wow and see what happens! Sheesh! And, yes, I willingly have entered the Baseball Hall of Shame for my major-league gaffe...but spare me some mercy, guys...please?
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#39261
08/24/2001 11:24 PM
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Jim Abbott was a top rated southpaw with one hand who broke in around '87. He showed a lot of promise and pitched superbly for a few seasons. What an inspiration it was to see him switch his glove on and off his bad hand to pitch and field with such speed and dexterity! I wanted to see him have a hall-of-fame career...I think everyone did. But he faltered along the way after the "wondrous" George Steinbrenner did a trip on his head when he pitched for the Yanks (I may be a Yankee fan, but I've never been a Steinbrenner fan!), and finally retired about two years ago, Still, the level of his achievement is a marvel in my mind. I'm eagerly waiting for the movie!
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#39262
08/25/2001 11:19 AM
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enthusiast
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I willingly have entered the Baseball Hall of Shame for my major-league gaffe...but spare me some mercy, guys...please?
I would tell my brother, but that would be too cruel.
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#39263
08/25/2001 2:02 PM
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I think AsP kindly started a whole nother thread for you baseball junkies to chatter to yourselves!!
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#39264
08/25/2001 2:21 PM
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say, here's an idea: let's start up the baseball-cricket wars again.
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#39265
08/25/2001 2:47 PM
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yeahbut. What about those of us who think they're BOTH boring?!
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#39266
08/25/2001 4:08 PM
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"yeahbut. What about those of us who think they're BOTH boring?!"
Then don't read it.
That shouldn't stop those of us who don't think that.
"ASAP kindly started a whole nother thread"
That thread goes under what category of the Main Index? Miscellany? or hijack some under-used category?
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#39267
08/25/2001 4:52 PM
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that shouldn't stop....Exactly. Problem arises only when another topic suddenly zooms off into the obscure reaches of one-legged penguin-fanciers etc! I only have a problem with topics that I know will bore me if they are flagged as continuation of something else entirely - I feel about most sports topics like some feel about politics and religion and FWIW, quoting AsP: Might be better if we confined said discussion here, folks (speaking from experience )http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=31712
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#39268
08/25/2001 8:00 PM
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Let those who find any topic boring either ignore it, or think of a better one.
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