#36518
07/26/2001 4:56 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
I found this in a Reuters report which appeared in the Jakarta Post this morning:
Amnesty said 300 million indigenous people worldwide, including Australia's Aboriginal people and Europe's Gypsies or Roma, faced racial discrimination, impoverishment and marginalisation. For the full report, see http://uk.news.yahoo.com/010725/80/bzd09.html . Has indigenous changed its meaning while I wasn't looking? I was always under the impression it meant the people who'd always lived in a place as far back as anybody knew. Gypsies arrived in Europe from India (in the 14th or 15th century AD,if I remember correctly), so how can they be described as an indigenous people? Bingley
Bingley
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#36519
07/26/2001 7:07 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393 |
No, I'd say that meaning was for 'aboriginal' rather than 'indigenous'.
I had to look up the etymology of 'indigenous' for this, and found an element I'd never heard of before, Latin indu- 'in'. So etymologically it just means native-born.
The Roma are indigenous to the Czech Republic, and not when they take asylum in Britain. They are not however aboriginal to either.
The aboriginal people of Italy were those there before the Romans (according to their legends that say they were founded from Troy, anyway).
Of course you can't really redefine terms on making some new archaeological discovery: say, that the Monte Verde people were aboriginal to the Americas and therefore the Clovis people weren't. It's a relative matter of time. I'd say (British) Gypsies are native (indigenous) to Britain, just as Anglo-Saxons are, but more recent arrivals like Bengalis and Czech Roma are not, even if they've been born here for a couple of generations. Give it a few more centuries. Indigenous Australians? Hm, no, 200 years isn't enough.
Same problems with animals, by the way. The rabbit is not native to Australia (200 years), but is it to Britain (1000 years)?
The dividing line could be that a native group has evolved some of its characteristics in the place where it's said to be native to. European Romany dialects differ, I believe; the dialects of English are... I think I'll stop here before I contradict myself any further.
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#36520
07/26/2001 7:50 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
There's a wide grey area here. Some people who are born and grown up in a country don't see themselves as a native, and others who come to a country sometimes do. It is clear that many bend things round to accommodate their preconceptions and understanding of words. This is largely based on some intangible patrimony they believe only they are proud enough to deserve. Even stricter definitions will not cure this ageless malady of the human condition.
Sprichwort:
Dummheit und Stolz wachsen auf einem Holz
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#36521
07/26/2001 3:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
It is very culturally based.. In one generation, you become a hyphenated american (irish-american, german-american, chinese-american.. some people even drop the hyphenated part sooner.. in our law--if you are born here, you qualify for everything-- including growing up and being president.. I don't think we have had any first generation american as president.. but we could..
In other cultures.. in 500 years, you still don't reach hyphenated status.. Koreans in Japan, Roma's in most of europe, Jews in many parts of europe.. In most countries, with most immigrants, the time frame is longer than US, but shorter than 500 years..
But i have a cousin (by marriage) i thought to be italian.. he looked italian, he spoke italian, his father came to US from Italy.. but he claims to be spanish.. He came from a family that served as servants to some royal household from spain and move to italy with the spanish court. .. and until spanish civil war, the family was still working as servants in government houses (embassies, etc) in Italy, for spanish government. His father spoke spanish as well as italian. the family lived in italy for over 300 years.. but they still considered themselves "Spanish"
(I no idea how the italians in italy felt about the family-- but italians in US considered them italian.) so sometimes its not the host country.. One complaint about the gypsy's is that they are not interested in giving up their language or ways and don't want to become part of the local population.. (or course, by now, attitude have become hardened.. who knows what it was like 1000, or 500 years ago..)
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#36522
07/26/2001 7:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
of troy > I don't think we have had any first generation Americans as president.. but we could..
Because I am feeling a bit saucy today
How about George Washington as a first generation American?
I can hear the screams from here!
But in a weird sorta way ... he became a very first, first generation American when the USA was established... anyway the proposition should make for some interesting conversation ... sort of like the two thousand pound canary in the airplane.
wow
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#36523
07/26/2001 9:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
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#36524
07/26/2001 10:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Max (et al),
After I filed a story on the first black woman to be elected mayor of Rio de Janeiro, my New York-based copy editor changed her description to "African-American woman." While there is the argument we know and love about what "American" means, still this just goes to reinforce your comment about the hyphenizations being a USn thang. The only one ever used in Brazil was "Afro-Brasileiro," used to characterize candomblé rituals and much of the music. Never the people, who are for the most part proudly Brazilian and a spectrum, their own se'fs.
"You do not know how difficult it is to govern a country that produces 483 types of cheeses" - De Gaulle [evil-grin]
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#36525
07/26/2001 10:51 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
"You do not know how difficult it is to govern a country that produces 483 types of cheeses" - De Gaulle say... is he still dead? [evil-grin]
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#36526
07/27/2001 8:04 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393 |
The Brazil (Bra-zil??) story is nothing to do with Brazil being in the Americas. There are stories here of black British athletes winning this-or-that in the Olympics and being described by US media as African-American. The substitution of "Black" is automatic: I think this says something about mental language rather than ignorance of geography.
Many people here do think of themselves with two terms, though usually not with any simple name: the terms Black British and British Asian occur, though more likely people will consider themselves to be English, Bengali, Afro-Caribbean, Welsh, or whatever, and British as well.
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#36527
07/27/2001 12:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
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addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
and the recent UK census included for the first time a question on ethnicity and cultural identity (which they confused), and one on religion (which was optional). I think we get the raw figures mid 2002. The English/Welsh form was available in Welsh language but did not provide "Welsh" as an option for ethnic grouping. You had to choose "Other" and write in "Welsh". I can't remember how they were labelled now tho' I may be able to LIU.
Rod
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#36528
07/27/2001 12:56 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
available in Welsh language but did not provide "Welsh" as an option
They didn't know how to spell Cymry?
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#36529
07/27/2001 2:24 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
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