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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I thought I'd revive this forum by starting a new thread, though I'm a little off-topic here. It's all Jackie's fault, and I quote her from another board: >>I teach my kids the difference between well-written books and poorly-written ones. In my opinion, there is a widening gap between the intellectual people and the rest of the country. Somebody, please post that I am wrong!<< You're not wrong.  Two friends, from totally different parts of my life, have sent me a test for eighth-graders from 100 years ago. Many US college students today would be unable to pass that test. I'll see if I can find a URL for it (unless tsuwm beats me to it!  ) "Home-schooling" is a growing phenomenon here in the US; granted, part of the cause is a sort of racist reactionary backlash to the growing number of minorities and immigrants in public schools, but I believe most of it has arisen out of a genuine concern for the decaying standards in said schools. I come from a long line of teachers: my grandmother was a Latin teacher; my mother, a retired English teacher; my sister, a kindergarten teacher. She has a master's degree in education and earns the same salary as a hamburger-flipper. She does it for love. Interesting: one of the most popular accredited home-school programs originates in Australia. I'd welcome comments on that from our free-spirited, independent friends down under. Public education is a real sore spot for me. I'd love to hear what y'all have to say on this issue. Thanks, Jackie, for bringing this up!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Anna-
Well, I suppose you're welcome, but this is one of those cases where the truth hurts. God bless your sister, et. al.
I was fortunate enough to find out by the end of my freshman year that there is no way I'd want to be a teacher.
But oh, they are SO important in kids' lives! For a great number of children, their teachers may be the only examples of civilized behavior that they ever see.
In my opinion, the U. S. has a small percentage of people who care enough to get involved and make efforts to improve the quality of life for everyone. I just read about a prime example: Shirley R. Watkins, undersecretary of our
Dep't. of Agriculture. While visiting an Indian reservation (speaking of gaps in society--shudder), she
noticed an inordinate number of homes with ramps instead of steps. She learned that many Indians were amputees, due to
complications from diabetes, which was exacerbated by the
federal government shipping unhealthful food. She saw to it
that all reservations got a good supply of fruits and vegetables after that.
There is a huge percantage of people in what I will term the
middle class, though I mean in more than the economic sense:
people who are the "average Joes", just doing the best they
can with what they have.
Then the scary part: an as-yet-fairly-small, but I'm afraid growing, percentage who have been so deprived all their lives of any kind of guidance or sustenance (mental and emotional, as well as physical) that they are essentially anarchists. These include all kinds of addicts, many of whom were born to addicted mothers, and who
truly do not have the capability in their brain for such things as self-control or respect for others.
Teachers in public schools have to try and deal with these
kids, who are well-nigh uncontrollable. So much classroom time has to be spent on discipline, I'm surprised as much learning occurs as there is. And heaven help the kids who
are just a little slow or learning-disabled: the teacher
sure won't have time to.
I certainly do not have a workable solution. I don't believe that throwing money at the problem will solve it. We need a national resurgence of higher standards and
expectations all around, as in when the vast majority of society noticeably frowns on and does something about
out-of-line behavior. Even something as simple as most
patrons in a restaurant glowering at the one unruly table
would help.
I have not been to every school in our county, but I've
talked with enough staff at many to have formed the opinion
that teachers themselves now expect very little of their
students, compared to even one generation ago. I think this
attitude is handed down to them from administrators, which is truly sad.
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A post in another thread, referring in passing to L.M. Montgomery, reminded me of something my wife asked me recently while she was reading (for possibly the 101st time) that wonderful book "Anne of Green Gables". The question related to the word "ebullience" ... was this a commonly used word? I assured her that it was one of several variations in the noun form (W.S. Gilbert uses "ebullition" in The Gondoliers) and asked her why the question. It appears that the novel has this word featuring in a primary school (possibly Grade 7 or 8, I'm not sure) spelling bee.
Good grief! How many Grade 7 or 8 students of today would be able to cope with this? It's a bit of a worry, eh?
Incidentally, it's not just North America, Anna. I can assure you it is perhaps even worse down under. We had a kind of "backlash" regarding education quite a few years ago, and many people had this great urge to "let the kids express themselves the way they want to", never mind those old stick-in-the-mud rules about English expression and so on.
We are still suffering the effects of this absurdity here, and University entrance standards continue, necessarily, to decline. So where do we go now?
Rgds, lusy
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#3445
06/27/2000 11:21 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Lusy--
Oh! Anne of Green Gables is one of my favorite books!!
I have the whole series, and still read them occasionally
myself. Glad to know I'm not the only adult who still likes
to read books for youngsters. This one has so many human
truths in it--this is what makes it so enjoyble.
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#3446
06/28/2000 10:49 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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I know very little about education in the USA but that doesn’t usually stop anyone expressing an opinion about education, so here’s a few thoughts from across the pond from someone who is really trying not to join in …
I was involved in a discussion the other day about "Dumbing Down". One of the conclusions was that there is always a view that once, long ago, things were better; everyone could spell impossibly long words and multiply huge numbers without using fingers and toes. Everyone can point to something that is missing; they just fail to point out what has been added. It is the cry of those who are part of the establishment, waving goodbye to the days when their point of view prevailed.
Science teaching has moved on leaps and bounds in a generation. Non-specialist teachers often had rather vague ideas about science subjects and were allowed to teach however they felt best. Provision was patchy and learning resources outside the most respected schools were often scarce. For all those people who can talk about their inspiring teachers of Latin or history there were also many that can’t. Mathematics was geared to the brightest in the class and left many by the wayside. Children were not taught about computers at school because they were not part of daily life. The teaching of the canon of classics has had to take less time in the curriculum to make room for new areas of study. Teaching methods now focus on process at the expense of content, spending time acting out a play, rather than sitting in rows reading a paragraph at a time. I was always bored and (quietly) intolerant, hoping the slowest reader would get a move on.
One scientific paper I read raised the idea that it is only this generation that has relied so heavily upon literacy. It was possible to live a happy and productive life without reading until very recently, natural selection hasn’t had very long to place literacy above strength or fighting skills in the gene pool.
Of course, I was saddened by the newspaper article spotted by wseiber in his posting in "Words from newspapers of the world". It told about a school in the North East of England with very high levels of deprivation. It is, indeed, always possible to find such sad stories. It seems that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The idea of "trickle down" where as one part of society get richer it has an effect on the whole of society doesn’t seem to work. I suspect that what really happens is that those who have not are made painfully aware of what how much they are missing. Lavish entertaining and foreign travel might not matter too much but a child needs not to be hungry and to have parents who care that their needs are at least partly met. Those who's lives are blighted by the curse of drug addiction aren't always the best at prioritising the use of their resources, where they exist. It is sad and we must keep trying to improve things.
So as part of the “have’s” rather than the “have nots” I feel that the state-provided education my children are getting in their leafy suburb isn’t at all bad. They are encouraged to debate ideas rather than sit back and resign themselves to the rule that their teacher knows best. Some old fashioned teaching methods have been reclaimed. They are expected to learn spellings by applying rules, rather than simply rote-learning or, even worse, not learning spelling at all. They have had to learn multiplication tables and are expected to do a “mental maths” test every morning (aged 9 & 11), they say it’s quite fun. I asked the head-teacher why they read so few classics. Her reply was that there is so much strong children’s writing around these days that they would be considered to be classics of the future (the jury is still out on that one). I don’t think the teaching of grammar is all that strong but I don’t think I was taught grammar at all well. I learnt more about the structure of English by studying other languages than by studying my own language in any detail. Their project work has been quite fascinating and they have done much more than skim the surface of the subjects they have tackled using the power of the library (mainly out of date books telling them that the economy of Australia relies on sheep farming) and the Internet (CIA world fact-book – 1999 figures with full economic analysis and population statistics).
Here are a couple of points from people I know who have exchanged cultures:
I have some relatives who “swapped” with some English lecturers from California about five years ago. They said they were glad to come back (except for the swimming pool and the sunshine). They thought that students had too strong a say in the USA. Here the teacher gives a mark and that is (largely) that. In the USA the students would complain if the grade was too low and the lecturer would be told to adjust it, rather than the departmental head have to face the student. Their impression was that below grad school, the standards were quite low. At grad school and beyond the standards were very high. They feel now that we are heading the same way – they have been told here to give more high grades. A few years ago a First Class Degree was rare, a 2:1 quite rare and a 2:2 considered to be the norm. Now there are very more First Class and Upper Seconds distributed. A friend who moved her children between Canada and Germany felt that the German teachers had a lot more power over the pupils and were a lot more sparing with their marks. They felt that their children were expected to work a lot harder in Germany but their Canadian education allowed for more creativity and the children were less stressed. A teacher from Chicago recently worked at my children’s school. I asked how the childrens’ work compared at the same age – she said that they were about the same. I suppose that we are all different and all keen to generalise from our own experience without always being aware of the bigger picture.
So I’m not joining in. I suspect there is good and bad teaching. There are certainly parents who contribute to their childrens’ learning and others who don’t. There are useful and useless theories put forward by educationalists. There are governments (and parents) willing to fund education to a reasonable level and there are those who fail to provide sufficient resources for whatever reason. All we can ask it that every child gets an opportunity to get an education that enables them to reach their potential, no matter how high.
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#3447
06/29/2000 10:33 AM
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I went to an independent and very academically focused school in the UK. It had an entrance exam and 85% plus of attendees went on to university, including me. Just about everyone had well-off parents - well, there were school fees.
When I graduated I went to teach English in rural Japan for two years. I taught at the only junior high in the town and the kids came from all kinds of backgrounds.
There was a general acceptance that girls did not need to go to university, but only to 'short university' - two year courses, often secretarial. Also some parents wanted first-born sons to do well but not outstandingly - if they did too well they would move away to the big city and no-one would be left to look after the farm.
The expectations were phenomenally different - far more different than the children, even though my school in the UK had 'weeded out'. And the expectations were set in both cases by much more than the school. I have huge sympathy for anyone in any education system - I think there is a tendency to blame the educators for things that have causes in wider society.
Are private (fee-paying) schools better educators, or do they just select better raw material by exams and/or by taking students who come from an environment that values education anyway? Let's face it, the parents are either paying money or making a conscious choice to opt out of mainstream, so putting some effort in.
I also agree with jmh that you have to think about what has been gained and what has been lost to get an overall view. Most of you are probably aware that Japanese students tend to score well in international comparisons on science and maths. These are 'right/wrong' subjects, which match the 'right/wrong' teaching and examination style in Japanese schools. Those same Japanese students have trouble stringing a sentence together in English or any other foreign language. Making a sentence is not a 'right/wrong' task, so they find it difficult. For comparison, I was stunned to find that 13 year olds in Japan could write a total of only 5-6 essays per term. I'm not talking about English essays here, I mean all essays, in all subjects, including creative writing, social sciences, writing up science experiments, anything. I wrote that many in a week! Once I discovered how rarely they wrote anything, I could understand why the Japanese students couldn't put a sentence together in English, let alone a paragraph. And I spent the rest of my time there awarding marks and praise to anything that had understandable meaning - communication - however bad the grammar was. After all, what's the point of perfect language if you can't communicate?
That said, better grammar, spelling, use of words and punctuation all help communication. It's a balancing act.
There is one thing I had that I would like for the education of any children I ever have. That's the overall approach. If I spelt a word wrongly or used poor grammar in writing up a science experiment, it affected my mark. The rationale behind this is that there's no point in having the knowledge if you can't communicate it properly - and in today's world I think that is truer than ever!
...unfortunately (in this context, not overall!!!) I am now in Australia and as someone else said in an earlier post, a whole generation went through school here without any formal training in grammar or clear expression. Many of these people are now teachers. It's hard for them to teach what they were never taught themselves. So I'll just have to make sure my kids get that in their society outside school.
By the way, in relation to changing curricula / needs, I have a 4 1/2 year old stepson who can type his name but can't write it. I am not sure whether to be alarmed by this or just consider it progress. Related to the comment I heard once about children who could no longer tell time by an analogue clock. Does this matter? How many of us can read Roman numerals? Let alone add them?
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It seems to me that a good knowledge of the language is just a useful tool to communicate, but it is not enough.
For example, if you ask someone for knowing the way to somewhere... it is usually difficult to have good instructions - how many people are confused between left and right? - but obviously they KNOW how to reach that place - for example by walking. So, why are they not able to explain it to someone else?
Ciao
Emanuela
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Carpal Tunnel
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<<a good knowledge of the language is just a useful tool to communicate, but it is not enough.<<
Good point, E! I think about this every time I observe a
spelling bee. The rules are so strict that it is as much a
test of whether the child can say the letters correctly, as
it is a test of whether he/she knows how to spell the word.
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I must sadly agree with the notion that standards are drastically declining. I'm still in high school myself (I'll be a senior this fall) and I've seen first hand how people who really aren't that bright are getting straight A's. My local newspaper just listed the students who were on the honor roll and high honor roll for the final quarter and I felt embarrassed. I was on the list (of course :), but 140 of my colleagues were as well. My class is of 260 students, and when well over half of the class receives honors, there's something wrong. It seems to me that teachers have become afraid of disappointing students or making it look like they're not teaching very well, so they've made tests easier and inflated the grades.
I also feel a little disturbed when I see classmates who are taking honors classes receive a lower class rank than someone who is taking the weakest possible combination of classes.
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In my high school days, I took honors classes weighted by a full point: an honors-class B equalled a non-honors-A. The increased difficulty in the classes justified the weight. However, with transcripts not directly reflecting the "weight," those Bs and one C haunted me long after I graduated from high school.
Another note of interest: students who took just one honors course throughout high school were "honors students" on equal footing with those who took full schedules of honors courses. I know the Bell Curve is out of style, but the merits of equal distribution still weigh heavily on my attitude of scholatics.
Not everyone can be an A-B student. And when they are, the top 10% are definitely not being challenged like they should. Make school 20% more difficult, let everyone's grades shift down 10%, and work from there.
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>>>a good knowledge of the language is just a useful tool to communicate, but it is not enough.
I face this problem daily. I work as an interpreter and consistently see people who know both languages severely stumble their way through attempts at interpreting. In my arena, language proficiency does not immediately lend itself to interpreting. But so many people think that because one knows both languages, one naturally can interpret.
Ever try the Babelfish AltaVista translation service (http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn)? Imagine that kind of translation going on in a doctor's office when it is your kidney in question.
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Wow! I never knew the US was having problems with education. I live in Canada and last year 1999 the government of Ontario came up with higher education standards. My generation was the first to start with the new highschool reform. I started grade 9 that year. Part of the reform was province-wide testing that ensured that children were not falling behind. I have to complete a literacy test this year. The courses are supposedly tougher since there will be no OAC year and everything must be learned in 4 instead of 5 years.
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#3454
12/22/2000 11:58 AM
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I attended an international school in Munich with a dynamic student body. American 'honour' students plucked from the state AND private schools in the US, found themselves failing courses in which they had never averaged lower than an A-. In addition the education at the international school was, on the whole, mediocre. I'm no genius and 12th grade was a bludge! Friends of mine from 'developing' countries snickered at the level of required maths and science.
A friend of mine was recently in LA and met a well educated high-school teacher, who ran into problems when he failed practically his entire class in English. He was packing his bags anyway.
Do the words regession and deterioration ring a bell! It's the most backward 'developed' nation I've ever heard of.
Grueße an euch alle!
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Goodness me oh my! So many good points in previous posts I want to lift quotes from nearly every one but since I cannot, let me ramble for a moment and try to cover some of them. Communication as the reason to learn is valid, no doubt. Let me ask this : if people are making up the "rules" for themselves, how is another to understand? Surely there has to be some attention paid to keeping all who want to learn a language on the same page, so to speak. As to the demands of today's world : I think every generation has been under pressure. It is just different, not better or worse. In my high school days (Autumn 1944 through June 1949) this is what I had : History - four years starting with Ancient and moving up through the centuries to finally American History in senior year. Math - two years algebra, one chemistry, one geometry. Language - two years Latin, two years French (some students opted for Spanish instead of French.) Arts- four years of art classes water color, oils, pastels, painting on fabric, etc. etc. Music - we all had at least two hours of music a week in class. Additionally I had music lessons 45 three days a week. We all participated in the school chorus. There was a war on so we had no gym teachers (they all went into the Army -WACS- or Navy -WAVES- or flew planes - WASPS) but we were expected to take a walk during our luch hour and to participate in some sport that could be done on our own without equipment -- I chose to swim! That was summer so winter it was walks! Additionally we had a minimum of two or three hours of homework a night. Marks were given as numbers 65% was the lowest grade you could get and have a passing mark. One third was class work, one third written work, one third test marks. Teachers kept daily marks in a book and we were allowed to consult them to see how we were doing on class work.The marks were averages to give us a mid-term and then a year-end grade. Every Friday we were given a ten minute quizz at the start of each class to see if we'd gotten the gist of what had been taught that week. As an aside, those quizzes helped us overcome "test fears." And on top of that we were expected to do special projects to increase our grades in a given subject. I was in an all-female private school. However I had friends in the city's public high school and aside from classes in embroidery (which we were given) the public high school carrried a similar subject load. That was a pretty fair amount of pressure. Oh, and because I went to private school, I had a 45 minute bus ride morning and afternoon. Just so you do not think we were drudges, we also had an active social life, played with friends, went to movies, helped Mother around the house, read books, listened to Don Winslow and Jack Armstrong on the radio, read news of the war in newspapers and wrote to our uncles, brothers, fathers in the Armed Forces and prayed they would come home safe. Now, I was an average student, generally got marks in the low 80s. The exceptions were English and History were I generally scored higher - 85 to 90 %. So, by most standards I should have opted for a typing course and gone into office work. Instead, because I had been gifted with a very good singing voice I went to college ... and there, because I could take courses that interested me, even though they were more demanding I got straight As and graduated with honors. A friend of mine who has a Master's degree in Business is now teaching a class in Business English. She has found that her pupils (already earning a living in business)generally are eager and willing to learn but in every class there are a few who confuse spell check with grammar check. And they complain and often her marks are overturned by a higher up ... the school is afraid of losing students and the tuition they bring in. On the other hand my neighbor's daughter attended our local high school, which is your average high school, and she attained marks that gained her a scholarship to college She is studying in the field of science and genetics. She was also in the Latin Club with my godson and they sometimes chat in Latin. He just got a four year scholaship to Boston University! Good heavens! The parents in both cases encouraged their children but are not slave drivers. And some other teens in the same classes are barely passing! Perfectly normal, no-drug type kids and they cannot put a compound sentance together. I don't know what the point of all this is. Perhaps someone could figure it out and let me know, too.  wow
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>I don't know what the point of all this is. well mom, you surely said (at least) one true thing: things don't get better or worse, only different.
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WOW
The system in India is slightly different from the American High School one, retaining as it does vestiges of the ol' Brit 'O' Levels and 'A' Levels. So the equivalent of the American four-year High School period was split for me into two periods of two years each - one for my '10th' or ICSE (Indian Certificate of Secondary Education) exams, and the next for my 12th or HSC (Higher Secondary Certificate) - before it was considered safe to let me loose on college proper.
For my 10th (the first big exam) we studied for two years to do 12 papers, which were then combined into marks on six subjects. The papers:
English Literature
English Language
Hindi Language
Hindi Literature
Maths
Physics
Chemistry
Biology
History
Civics
Geography
'Optionals' (Accounts, in my case)
The six subjects under which we received marks were therefore:
English
Hindi
Maths
Science
Social Studies
Optionals
Then on to two years in the science stream for my HSC:
English
Basic French
Maths 1
Maths 2
Chem 1
Chem 2
Bio 1
Bio 2
Phy 1
Phy 2
again conflated to just six subjects in the end (oh my word - this was not that many years ago and I cannot remember the last 'subject' - eek).
For what it's worth, before 'high school' our curriculum included, along with English (yay) Hindi (boo) Marathi as well (for four years) and Gujarati (just one year when I was very young), Maths, History, Geography, and the three sciences - which we did for about 4 years as a full curriculum before that. Yes, I remember we also had art, music and PT (physical training).
I believe this intensive, exam-based system, is still used in India. It seems to work for some. But I'm sure there were just as many traumatised by its rote ruthlessness as we believe are 'let down' by the West's liberal-lax standards. I enjoyed it (except the homework), but that's just one opinion...
cheer
the sunshine warrior
ps. Aenigma prefers Matilda to Maths.
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I believe this intensive, exam-based system, is still used in India. It seems to work for some.
Hi Shanks !
Tests - Paugh! Massachusetts is currently in a turmoil about "M-CAST" test for all school children to test their knowledge. I'm not even going to touch that one.
I think when standardized tests are established teachers stop teaching subjects and start teaching the test.
If test must be given I think it should be prepared by teachers and be essay type.
Ha.
Rant Rant Rant
wow
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If test must be given I think it should be prepared by teachers and be essay type.
Oh we had those too. First Terminal exam, Second Terminal exam, Final exam - three times a year like clockwork, except in our tenth, when instead of the 'final', we had a preliminary (Prelims) and then the Board (ICSE, as referred to earlier), so had the treat of four sets of exams in that year.
After all this, I did (for a laugh) the American tests (my mother fondly hoped I might get off my arse for long enough to actually do uni in the States) - SAT, ACTs, GREs etc. I have to admit that I was an arrogant little merde of a teenager, but by the end of it all, I was so contemptuous of the standards of the American 'tests' that I didn't bother preparing for them in any way (unless you count getting drunk the night before as preparation).
Yes, I think you miss out a lot with standardised, multiple choice tests. But you would, presumably, miss out a lot with a non-standardised system where teachers have all the power - one bad apple, or one bad interaction witgh a vindictive teacher and that's your career down the tubes. The choices aren't perfect, no matter which direction you head in, IMO.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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But you would, presumably, miss out a lot with a non-standardised system where teachers have all the power - one bad apple, or one bad interaction witgh a vindictive teacher and that's your career down the tubes. The choices aren't perfect,
Point VERY well taken.
wow
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Ah--well i have stayed away from this thread-- I am a good example of a bad education.
My early childhood education was from dedicated nuns, all educated themselves, but saddled with classes of 45 to 50, to at one point, in 4th grade, 84 unruly students,(in one class!) Sometime not even enough desks and seats, let alone books. (I remember 4th grade well, as I came back to school late that year, having missed the first two weeks-- and was seated on top of the big old cast iron radiators for the first month! )
My home had one bookcase about 3 feet wide, and three shelves high. Both my parents lacked an education. I did grow up in house that read, but i don't ever remember my mother reading anything but novels..
We didn't have a complete dictionary in the house. A large multi volume edition of the Funk and Wagnols had been offered as a promotion in a store, and we had most of the volumes.. and no other reference books till i was in High School. There is a federal program to assist poor schools purchase text books, but Dictionaries are not considered text books, so, while my school has some, there were not enough to available to have a dictionary for every student.
(I currently at home have a shelf of dictionaries-- and the OED became a line item in my divorce settlement-- with my ex getting it.)
Since both of my parents are immigrants, i also did not have a large or extended family, so there was no kind aunt or uncle who came in to bridge the gap.
I was often bored at school, since i had a strong innate ability to read and learn. I was reasonable well behaved, and so got very little personal attention from teachers, who where busy helping the student who they perceive needed their help-- But this lack of guidance had long term effects..
When still in elementary school, I discovered science, and started reading books like "The Microbe Hunters"-- my mother thought it was morbid-- and while almost nothing was strictly censored, non-fiction science reading was not considered normal, and was discouraged. She never banned anything outright, but to discourage, she would "helpfully" return the book to the library for you–whether or not you had finished reading them. I also read "Anne of Green Gables", that was okay– but wanting to read science was not going to be encouraged– and there was no one to defend my desire to learn.
as shanks points out-- (seconded by Wow,)one bad apple, or one bad interaction with a vindictive teacher and that's your career down the tubes. The choices aren't perfect..
That was sixth grade for me.. I spent most of the year seated out side the principle's office. My most serious offence was existing... If either of my parents had been involved with my education beyond dressing me and sending me off to school, they might have realized something was amiss.. (actually my mother became aware of how serious the issue was a week or so after Easter-- and then rationalize, that there were only about 8 week left to the school year, so i could just spend the rest of the term on steps out side the principles office. she didn't think that it had done me much harm, since in spite of not attending any lessons, i was still able to get 80's and 90's on most of the tests. ) She never questioned--why was i able to get 90's with out being in class, and what where the social effects of being banned from class..
Bel, you spoke warmly of holiday's, and wow, you too, seemed to have a happy childhood.. I envy you a bit-- less now than in the past, since i have come to see that a terrible childhood is a wonderful foundation for life.. if you survive it! And i did-- just!
most of my education came in the between spaces.. school exposed me to subjects, and as they interested me, i learned about them. Books, newspapers, museums, all these where between the spaces.. Wow-- i don't know what features your paper included, but i learned to read long stories by reading novels serialized in The (NY) Daily News.. And while I was picking up the newspaper, I learned the habit of reading it. I learned vocabulary from "It pays to Increase your Wordpower" in the Readers digest..
as stated elsewhere in this thread-- this is the first time in history, that we have the expectation that everyone is going to get any education.. There are students, enrolled in NYC "school" program, that are in "light coma's"--with resources going to teach them. (I personally know of 2) Their teacher is expected to prepare a evaluation of the educational goals, and what is being done to reach them-- and at the same time, class size in "regular" classes keeps creeping up, school building keep deteriorating.. schools are cutting arts programs...I don't know if it is that we don't have the resources to teach every one– or that we, as a society are just not willing to allocate the resources (this is definitely an issue in US, I don't know about else where)
Like Mark Twain, i learned the best way to get an education is to read, read, read, and hang around with people smarter than yourself.. in HS, I started to hang around the local university campus– Fordham– and used to pass myself off as a student I hang out here too, ( thank you all! ) and lest you feel shock or sympathy for my somewhat Dickensian childhood--, the fact is, i was in many ways, very lucky.. I had a excellent library at my disposal, and for $0.30 round trip--(or less if i jumped the turnstile) i could be off to a collections of world class museums.. Both the Bronx Zoo and the Bronx Botanical gardens were within walking distance. and frequently visited...
Education, and the treatment of children in general is one way to measure a society. As we have become a more urban society, and children are more of an expense (rather than an asset) I think we have failed in how we treat them. In some ways, they are more "valuable"-- and far more protected than ever before-- but in other ways, much less is expected of children. In NYC over 1 million student take school buses to school, since any child who is more than .5 miles from school entitle to a school bus.. Since walking more than a half mile is considered "too far". Social promotions is the norm too, (but changing-- NY too has standardized test for 4th grade, 8th grade and graduation) since it too difficult for a child to be left back--(i look back at my own childhood, and while i would not wish it on a dog–) it hard not to think that there are no challenges available to these children. They sometimes seem wrapped in cotton wool. And at the same time, there is the movement to "Zero" tolerance– I learned as much from my mistakes as I did from any book– if we have a policy of "zero" tolerance– no mistakes allowed.. No child in their right mind will ever see the value in taking risks...
A comment from Jazz, again if you could-- Since you seem to have (or your parent to some degree) achieved a measure of success. Is it innate ability? your parents willingness to let you take risks, so you learned your own strengths and weaknesses? Good teachers? a rich environment? (by rich, i mean not things, but ideas) growing up in middle class environment, with ready access to books, and culture, not just in the public sphere, but at home?
Is there a defination of what is wrong? and if not, how can we formulate a plan to resolve and make right?-- and even if we can define what is wrong-- can we make right?
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#3462
12/27/2000 11:48 PM
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A comment from Jazz
Well, I've never really thought, in much detail, about what made me like learning and subsequently led me to this board, but it seems to be a combination your suggestions. My parents both went to Ohio State University. My mom is now a work-at-home pension administrator (something with retirement plans and mutual funds) and my dad is a research scientist. I've lived in five places since birth until 5th grade when we moved to my current home 7 years ago. With never living in the same place for much more than 3 years I frequently got friendships cut-off. This probably caused me to be somewhat shy and make fun for myself. My mom is always reading and my dad watches Jeopardy! almost every night. Early intellectual interest, I guess, contributed a great deal.
I always found school rather easy. I don't know how to explain it. My teachers weren't always commendable. I couldn't stand my 2nd and 4th grade teachers. Miserable despotic folk, they were. My favorite teachers were all in high school: German, Jazz Band and AP Physics. For some reason or another, these three teachers just know how to teach their classes and make it fun.
Nothing recently has contributed more to my educational interests than this board, though. This is mainly in what I read. Because of these discussions I've been reading Voltaire, I just finished the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (crazy stuff, Tsuwm) and I just started Goedel, Escher Bach. My, what you people do to me. . .
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Shanks talked about tests ... when I worked for a university here, I sat the GMAT just for fun with a couple of lecturers in the department I slept in on a daily basis. Won't tell you what I got - partly because it was many moons ago and I don't remember the exact score - but it was a doddle to reach the minimum scores for the top colleges in the US. We prepared for it by doing one of those "Prepare yourself for the GMAT" type courses. That took us one day, less time, in fact than the test itself. Taking tests, especially multi-choice tests, is more a matter of technique than of knowledge. Tests effectively do nothing except test the tester. That's my controversial statement for the day! 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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>Tests effectively do nothing except test the tester. That's my controversial statement for the day!
We now have SATs at 7 and 11. They just give a range (eg level 2 by age7, level 4 by age 11) and seem to have little use for the children. In England (but not yet in Scotland) they are published in the press and their main use seems to be in ranking primary scools in order of the proportion of children reaching the expected standard for their age. If doesn't give any information about the number of children exceeding the standard, so schools are encouraged to focus on borderline pupils - this may or may not be a good thing, depending on the education standard of your child. Although there is support for low achievers, very few schools have support for high achievers who can become bored and disruptive. In most cases the results can be predicted from the relative wealth of the postcode area (zipcode). In many cases schools are offering a great deal to children with little home support but the praise tends to be short-lived, in some cases schools in "good areas" realise that they have to improve. Either way, the flow is still to better areas for those who want to give their children a good start and the published tables only help this process.
At seconday level, often one school from 11-18 but with variations around the country, we have tests at 16(ish) and 18(ish). At the top end of the school many pupils will take up to eight or nine GCSE exams at 16 and three "A" levels at 18. In Scotland it is different with up to eight or nine "standard grades" at 15/16 and five "highers" at 17/18, followed by an optional extra year with increasing specialisation or an opportunity to add more "highers".
I think we all regard the system as good or bad, according to out own level of success. I found the courses interesting and the syllabus wide enough for the teachers not only be teaching for the exam. The exams were often in three parts with MCQs, essay questions and then practicals/orals/aurals for sciences or languages.
I often cross swords with teachers, especially a couple who were not very bright (I was much more aggressive in those days, mild and gentle soul that I am), so in those subjects I appreciated the external markers who made sure that everything was fair. I'm a fairly lazy person, willing to dot he minimum, so I'm sure that I would have worked less hard at school or university without the thought of an impending exam!
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We used to have similar streaming tests here, school certificate and University Entrance. Then the politically-correct crowd got in on it and decided that competitive schooling was bad for kids. Exit exams. But the universities howled loudly about entrance standards (and their inability to apply them without a measuring stick). So, last time I looked, exams were back, but changed beyond all recognition. You'd think that in a country with a total population of 3.8 million, we'd be able to organise ourselves at least as well as Singapore which has a similar sized population ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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You'd think that in a country with a total population of 3.8 million, we'd be able to organise ourselves at least as well as Singapore which has a similar sized population .
Political I know, but I wouldn't want to be compared, favourably or otherwise, with a state claiming to be democratice that has an absolutely vile record with regard to human rights. I can only hope New Zealand does not take the nanny/police state of Singapore as its educational model.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
ps. Best of luck in the One-Day-ers against Zimbabwe. Already one down? Tut tut.
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Facetious, shanks, definitely facetious. I was talking about their education system, which is actually quite good. And Singapore ain't so bad, really. I spend a lot of time there. Things are relaxing on the judicial front. Political dissent is increasing. The influence of SM Lee is waning as Goh consolidates power. The last ASEAN meeting showed that he's pretty much his own man these days. The Black Caps do have this amazing and consistent ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, and take great delight in proving it ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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CapK what is ASEAN?
There is an restaurant that opened up about two months ago near my house that calls itself that. Everybody thought they had simply misspelled Asian.
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bel, I would guess that your guess about the restaurateurs' guess on the spelling of "Asian" is probably right. ASEAN is the Association of South East Asian Nations. Oh well, maybe Chinese takeaways in Quebec need something odd to attract the punters in through the door! NZ and Oz are not members of ASEAN - it's a very Asian ASEAN. 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Mind you, perhaps it is correct since they tout themselves as cooking up an assortment of east Asian meals. Now see, I'm going to have to go in there and ask.
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Pooh-Bah
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A note to Jazzoctopus:
Jazz! You're a Buckeye baby! I took note of that, since I went to law school at Ohio State. (Hence, the "[Buck]eye" in my nom de keyboard.)
How terrific that we all have this resource, a sort of electronic salon. I was isolated as a child, and I wish I'd had the web.
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I went to law school at Ohio State. (Hence, the "[Buck]eye" in my nom de keyboard.)
Am I correct in assuming from the other half of your moniker that you also went to Michigan State?
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#3473
01/15/2001 12:59 PM
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stranger
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I am new to this list and in my first year of teaching at the ripe old age of 46 (well I was 45 at the beginning of the school year, but I digress). I am teaching English in a very rural community in Western Arizona. We have very wealthy farmer/rancher children and migrant worker's children. The county I live in has only two high schools. One is in the county seat and only takes children that live in that town and then there is ours. Some of these children bus in from over 90 miles away. We are talking about 1.5 hour bus trips back and forth. This year we have a new superintendent, principal and 7 (out of 12) new teachers (now 8 as the Art teacher quit over Christmas break). I understand that discipline was non-existent before this year. The new principal taught PE here for 14 years and just recently graduated with his masters. The students are unruly, surly, insolent and some are just out and out nasty. You know what??? I am nice to them all. They cannot figure it out. But I learned a long time ago that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Last semester they hated me (I was new and they have a running rule that they have to try to get a teacher to quit the first semester). This semester I have students asking me to please remember them forever. This is a long story for a very short comment. Some of these students just don't care. They have lived a meager existence for so long that they expect to continue living one. They don't care. I have a few that are very intelligent and they just don't care. They hand in no homework and do no assignments in class. I have been told to fail them but not to write a disciplinary referral on them unless they are disrupting the class. I have one senior student who failed junior english with me this year. Was he ever surprised. This kid is a drug user and I believe dealer. He would come to class and sleep. I couldn't write him up because he didn't disrupt the other students (he was too stoned to do that). But you know what. I was the first teacher to fail him. He was taking Junior english his last year because he had other more interesting classes to take and the counselor lets them do this. So this semester I have him twice. I have him for "Vocational English - those students who failed" and since I do not have a senior English class this semester he is doing correspondence work and sitting in another class of mine (Yearbook). Standards in the US are declining. Why??? Because we have lost control over the students. They have way too many "rights". I am not talking about beating them within an inch of their lives, but to be afraid of disciplining them because their parents can sue???????????? Most of these parents do not pay attention to these students or they believe that "little Johnny" wouldn't and couldn't act this way. Example: The "drug dealer's" father is living with one of the other teachers. She has told him over and over that he is doing drugs. He will not listen to her. His son says he isn't>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Get a clue, DAD!!!! Okay, I said a lot and probably said nothing. I have a tendency to ramble. Drives the students crazy. LOL Have a good day.
Thanks,
"What we do in life, echoes an eternity" - Maximus Decimus Meridias.
Thanks,
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Roibin, how sad. How utterly, utterly sad. Teachers at my children's middle school and now both of their high schools say that the Advanced Program classes are the only ones
that they actually enjoy. These kids tend to talk more, but at least mostly have an interest in learning.
I wish I knew what the, or a, solution would be. A good friend of mine who pinches pennies to send her daughter to a parochial school full of rich kids tells me that most of her child's classmates are virtually unsupervised--both
parents work, or in some cases where the mom doesn't, she is too busy socializing to be with her own child. The parents give the kids rules, then take their word as to whether they've obeyed. The kids do whatever they want to.
So money isn't an infallible guideline to whether a child will do well in school or not. Many poor parents take a great interest in their children's education.
Our society as a whole has let our values get skewed, I think.
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#3475
01/16/2001 12:59 AM
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journeyman
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Declining standards in the US----I totally agree. We seem to put all the emphasis on the really gifted child, the unruly and hard-to-control child and the severely disabled child. Those many average or nearly average children are totally lost unless their parents can afford some help in tutoring or they are willing to help their kids. Too many teachers are doing the job because they like the summers off and too many teachers are also burned out because they have to do two jobs--day teaching and evening sports coaching. Both the classroom and the sports are suffering unless the person has no other life beyond school. Parents feel that teachers should teach children morals, discipline, respect, economics, recycling, and kindness----when is there even time to teach the basics-reading, writing, spelling, math and science? And this volunteer bit in the schools----perhaps it would help to pay us volunteers 2.00 or 3.00 per hour up to a set amount of hours per day, unless the person wishes not to be paid. I also think that every classroom should have a teacher's aid at all times, not just for the special needs---and if their are special needs kids--then an additional teacher's aid would also be needed. Our German exchange students know 4 times as much at 17 than our brightest students of the same age-----why???? And this is attending an American school in English---if they could read and listen to the lessons in German, they would get even higher grades!!!!! Soooo sad!!!!!
enthusiast
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Bikermom, I did not get into teaching for the summers off and I know about them (my two older sisters are teachers). However, in the short time I have been a teacher I can assure you that every day off a teacher gets is well deserved. I put in 15+ hours a day (every day including most weekends). My students tell me that I don't have a life. This past semester 1/2 of my students decided to cut and paste from the internet rather than do their own research paper. I caught them. It took me days, but I caught them. One student who had to repeat senior english to graduate told the other students that he was there because "I had too much time on my hands and surfed the net." I caught him because he used a paper written by a college student from Ontario, Canada. Well, guess what the Brit's (including Canada) spell words differently than we do. His downfall "Defence" instead of Defense. I don't have a lot of time on my hands. I just want to do my job right. After I and the other English teacher (who volunteered to help me = she is only 26) determined the papers who were fake, I spent even more hours reading those that were determined to be original. She made me dinner and brought it to school for me. This is the FIRST TIME this has happened at this school (why? because I am the first English teacher to ask for a research paper). To make a long story short, I know why teachers get the summers off. WE DESERVE IT WITH ALL THE HOURS WE PUT IN DURING THE SEMESTER. Plus schools are now going to longer semesters (next year - instead of 3 months off we only get 2). Besides I am paid so little that during those two months off I plan to get a job. Probably at McDonalds or something like that at a town that is 40 miles away. As for sports. Yep, we teachers do that too. Do the sports suffer. Who cares??????????????????? The students aren't there to excel in sports, or am I wrong???????? I am also a volunteer for softball and I tell the students that I don't care. Sports is not an excuse for not having their work done. These kids travel for their games and get home at 3 am. I don't care. They are here to learn, not play basketball. Unless you ARE a teacher you cannot judge a teacher. I know there are bad teacher's. I know that. But most of us go beyond what is expected. Including drying tears from broken relationships and from starting a period (this is stuff they don't tell their parents). During the past semester I have heard it all. These kids write about drinking in the desert and doing drugs. I never would have admitted doing anything like that in high school. This is a new breed. I do not have children of my own and I am glad. They lie to their parents about everything, ditching school, doing drugs and of course if they are given a disciplinary slip to the principal? Well, "the teacher has it in for them" or "the teacher doesn't like them". Can't tell you how many students I have sent to the principal that I truly like and think have a chance. Bottom line:
STOP ASSOCIATING TEACHERS WITH SUMMERS OFF (THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN) AND SPORTS. Okay I will now get off my soapbox. Please forgive any mistakes in this posting. At the beginning I was not happy.
"What we do in life, echoes an eternity" - Maximus Decimus Meridias.
Thanks,
"What we do in life, echoes an eternity" - Maximus Decimus Meridias.
Thanks,
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I agree. I have been a teacher and both my parents were teachers. My mother is still teaching. My Aunt is a teacher. In my last house we stumbled into a cul-de-sac with four teachers. I know a lot of teachers. To think it's possible to be a teacher just for the summers is not to know what it's like to be a teacher. Long hours, little pay, insolent children backed by insolent parents... just so you can get a second job in the summer. I know there are bad teachers out there. But I know a lot of teachers who do the job because they want to teach. Despite the endless paperwork, and the angry parents and everything else, they want to teach. Those who do deserve some respect. It's not an easy job.
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#3478
01/16/2001 12:50 PM
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Standards in the US are declining. Why??? Because we have lost control over the students. They have way too many "rights". I am not talking about beating them within an inch of their lives, but to be afraid of disciplining them because their parents can sue???????????? Most of these parents do not pay attention to these students or they believe that "little Johnny" wouldn't and couldn't act this way. Example: The "drug dealer's" father is living with one of the other teachers. She has told him over and over that he is doing drugs. He will not listen to her. His son says he isn't>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Get a clue, DAD!!!! Okay, I said a lot and probably said nothing. I have a tendency to ramble. Drives the students crazy. LOL Have a good day.
THANKS FOR RAMBLING, I LOVE IT AND I DO IT TOO---IT ALSO DRIVES MY FAMILY AND EXCHANGE STUDENTS CRAZY ALSO!!!!!
Hello Roibin, I like your stamina. I am 47 and have been thinking of taking a two year course to get a teaching degree for K thru 3. It requires lots more travel and two more years for anything beyond that. Butthe cost is $3000. or more a semester and I still have a 10 yr old at home. Sorry if I sound like I do not appreciate most teachers. Quite the opposite. I respect them for their long hours putting up with what you describe as a new trend of unruly kids, parents who don't care or who think their Johnny wouldn't or couldn't do that. I have been a volunteer since 1988 and a high school janitor in the year 2000. Yes, I have seen and heard it all too and I still believe that there is tons of potential in today's teens---but adults, parents and teachers have to stick to their morals, not let the kids run them over and enforce the three R's==RESPECT, RESPONSIBILITY AND RULES. And yes, this really does not include beating them with a stick, just respecting them as young adults and they will also come to respect you. When a teen opens up their heart to you----you know you have done things right. So I have decided not to go for a teaching degree, but to be home for my kids and all the other kids that seem to come here--on weekends we usually have 5 or 6 boys hanging around, refusing to leave---this makes me feel good and I will be home to tutor more kids in areas of my great love---spelling, reading, writing, talking, listening and cooking. Well I have 7 more years til my 5th grader graduates---and he was born telling me what he wants!!!! Keep up the terrific work, I admire you and what your doing----and it seems as if the Eastern Appalacian hills is not the only poor spot in this great USA Have a great day and hang in there all you teachers
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Hi and my apologies to all those good teachers whom I have offended. I am truly sorry, I guess because of my rambling on and on I fail to get my real point across and the wrong message is heard. So thanks everyone for will to set me straight---I read and understand better than I hear and understand!!!! I am not a lover of sports so I am sorry also. My real feelings are that teachers should NOT be even expected to do the sport thing after school, they have families too and even if they are single--teachers have a life other than school 24 hours a day. I have total empathy for today's teachers and what they are facing when they look at a classroom of 20 to 30 kids who really do not give a darn. And I think by telling teachers what they all do when not in school, just goes to prove that kids really want someone to listen to them and not judge, and even perhaps admit that they too were young and crazy once. Hey it is amazing that I am still alive 30 years after my high school days, and I would have loved to have an open relationship with my parents. What kids today hear is "Let's hurry, we are late" or "Not now I have NO TIME" and big beautiful houses with big dinner tables and NO ONE gathers as a family to eat at them daily!!!!! To much extra evening stuff running here and there. I think that perhaps the internet will make people at least want to stay home rather than run, run, run, etc. Maybe I am wrong again--
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Ladymoon, Perhaps you could answer another question of mine. Have the kids really changed over all these years??? And have the parents of these kids really changed also??? Maybe it is the fact that the media prints more rotten stuff and thrives on it than about printing the good things that some kids, parents and teachers are doing. I think that if the good stuff made the headlines, it would escalate into a steady stream of god things happening. Once again, maybe I am tooooo optimistic and naive!!!!
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You are correct, oh perceptive one. "Sparteye" is probably not the most appropriate name for such a literate board as this, but I established my moniker in the context of sports boards and didn't want to develop another name. I have enough trouble remembering passwords and such without compounding the task with multiple identities. (Perhaps, I should call myself Sybil and be done...)
I've probably missed a prior discussion, but from whence "Jazzoctopus?"
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