#34110
06/29/2001 12:23 PM
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We've recently learned the difference between the Canadian and American perspectives on the War of 1812. But we both call it The War of 1812. Since each war has two sides vehemently opposed, certainly there exists semantic warfare in discourse about the wars themselves.
The best example that comes to mind relates to the American Civil War. Many (or most) American educators call this, simply, the Civil War. But while visiting Atlanta, Georgia, I was shocked to find the teachers and textbooks refer to this as The War of Northern Aggression.
What we call a battle, others may call a massacre. Any other interesting examples of semantic warfare in the naming of wars or events?
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#34111
06/29/2001 12:30 PM
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I was shocked to find the teachers and textbooks refer to this as The War of Northern Aggression.
I've heard that several times, and I'm suprised to learn that you hadn't. I use the term Civil war, though, and only see War of Northern Aggression in books and on tv, like with a Rocky and Bullwinkle show where they use Civil War battle plans for a football game, and this southern guy insists on his usage.
I'll ask my aunt about this, sometime.
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#34112
06/29/2001 12:49 PM
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I know a couple, she of Atlanta, he of NYS. She refers to the War of Northern Aggression; he, in retaliation refers to it as the War of Southern Submission.
But, to the point, what we called World War Two, the Russians, not our enemy at the time, called The Great Patriotic War. They were fighting against an alliance gone sour.
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#34113
06/29/2001 12:55 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Then there's "The War For Southern Independence," pronounced "Wuh Fuh Suthrin Induhpendunce." Just come on up on the veranda, y'all, and have a glass of sweet tea and we'll discuss it.
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#34114
06/29/2001 1:09 PM
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Brandon was shocked to find the teachers and textbooks refer to this as The War of Northern Aggression, and jimthedog was suprised to learn that you hadn't heard it before.
I've heard this before, but similar to your Rocky and Bullwinkle comment, thought it was of more historical usage than in currently published elementary school textbooks. I should have inserted the word" still" into the sentence so it read that I was shocked the teachers and books still used that term.
Im just finished Carl Sandburg's voluminous biography of Abe Lincoln. It's quite apparent that Lincoln played the semantic card by emphasizing the "civil" (not peaceable, but brotherly) nature of the war to quelch the argument that the states had actually seceeded. In fact, in all his letters and discourse, he was careful to keep them "states in rebellion" and not a confederacy. He wouldn't even negotiate with them following typical foreign affiars procedures because it might lend credence to their philosophical stand if the President sat at a bargaining table like he would with another nation.
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#34115
06/29/2001 1:16 PM
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there is some of this in past theads-(Fall of 2000? or so)
When Shanks was a regular (wouldn't it be nice to have him back!) he gave some of the history of India--episodes that the English refer to as Mutiny(s) the Indians now call First (or other number) War of Independence
since it it still raw point -- some subjects should be avoided (no blame attached here, but the subject can raise passions) the English vs. the Irish view of history in Ireland is somewhat different. as is the Israeli vs. the palestinian view.
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#34116
06/29/2001 4:23 PM
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I can't believe I've come to this thread so late, and no one has brought up the British vs. US'n takes on the American Revolutionary War ~ I've heard it doesn't have much bearing on the historical education of British students, but whoo! - how we go on about it here!
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#34117
06/29/2001 10:01 PM
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We could never have won the Revolutionary War if the French had not helped us, and the British had not been compelled to keep almost all their forces at home to counter the threat of the French and others. So in English history the battles in America were trivial skirmishes.
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#34118
06/29/2001 10:51 PM
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I don't believe that the British have ever admitted having lost the stoush in 1776 or the American War of 1812 either. They were never "wars" as such, they were what would be termed by a Reagan White House (and probably a Bush one as well) as "police actions".
When you look at it objectively, the War of Independence was a rather internecine little dustup, of little consequence to the British Crown, which was soon improving is revenues in areas which gave them a lot less grief. And in fact it had its good points, too, because the British actually learned a thing or too which they put to good use during, in particular, the Peninsular War a few years later. Shame they forgot how to learn after that!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#34119
06/30/2001 12:00 AM
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>the Russians, not our enemy at the time, called The Great Patriotic War.
One might argue that, since 40% of the total number who died in WWII were from Russia, or at least from the USSR, Russians earned the right to call it whatever they like.
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#34120
06/30/2001 12:28 AM
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The Civil War
The War Between the States is one off the more popular titles for this conflict, usually favored by Southerners and Southern re-enacters over The Civil War . I just visited friends in Columbia, South Carolina recently (the heart of the Old Confederacy) and toured the Sate Confederate Museum and other historical sites. And some folks are still a mite sensitve down there about Gen. Sherman's troops burning down the town and all that. You don't say The Civil War around there...it's always The War Between The States.
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#34121
06/30/2001 2:54 AM
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And some folks are still a mite sensitve down there about Gen. Sherman's troops burning down the town and all that.
And I guess they don't name their kids Tecumseh either.
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#34122
06/30/2001 4:50 AM
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Brandon, Surely you jest. I was educated in Atlanta and never once heard the term "War of Northern Aggression" except as a joke. And that goes for you, too, Faldage  If I may be permitted a Helen-of-Troy aside: there's a statue of Sherman on a horse at the *south entrance to Central Park. Alongside him is a woman on foot (I don't think she is 'Winged Victory', but Helen will correct me if I'm wrong). Once, while I was guiding a group a tourists there, one of the women (from Georgia, yes) remarked: "Ain't that just like a Yankee! Making the lady walk!"
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#34123
06/30/2001 9:24 AM
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The Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) was called the War of Liberation by the National Catholic (read "fascist") side, both during the conflict itself and during the 40 years of Francisco Franco's dictatorship. I *suppose the Republican factions called it a civil war, which is the current way of referring to it, although one can still sporadically hear "War of Liberation" coming from political or social figures that are still ideologically aligned with the extreme right-wing. What I find interesting about this is that in international law a "civil war" is understood to mean that which happens within the boundaries of one country as opposed to internationally, but a "war of liberation" is understood to mean a fight against foreign occupation. There was no foreign occupation in 1936 Spain, not even an issue of geographical dispute within the boundaries of the country. It was only an ideological affair. So who/what was the "liberation" from? Rhetoric is a good instrument of propaganda. 
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#34124
06/30/2001 3:43 PM
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Brandon, surely you jest about the "War of Northern Aggression"
AnnaS, I'm afraid I don't jest (as far as I understand it). A friend of mine teaches in Cherokee County (just north of Atlanta and east, I think, of Marietta). As a member of the curriculum and accreditation board, she works on choosing and ordering textbooks for the district. According to her, the list of history textbooks is chosen based on the criterion of "Civil War" perspective, namely, the books' support of the Northern Aggression perspective. But, let me reiterate, I was not educated in Georgia and share this purely second-hand (but from whom I consider a reliable source). Anyone currently a resident of the Deep South who can ask a fourth-grader?
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#34125
06/30/2001 4:57 PM
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The Spanish Civil War
Well, the fascists were the ones rebelling, so you could say that they were liberated from a fair republican form of government. Those aristocrats wanted to keep the fray subdued. In any historical and democratic terms it wasn't liberating at all because the victory expanded the Hitler/Mussolini fascist cause. I did a research paper on the Spanish Civil War this year and one of my sources quoted a veteran of the volunteer Abraham Lincoln brigade as saying that if the democratic nations had gotten involved and supported the republicans as much as Hitler and Mussolini supported the Nationalists then World War 2 probably would have never happened. I tend to think that if they had gotten involved the Spanish Civil War would have turned into World War 2.
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#34126
06/30/2001 6:30 PM
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AnnaS was educated in Atlanta and never once heard the term "War of Northern Aggression" except as a joke. And that goes for me, too
Well, the last time I heard it referred to as the War of Northern Aggression was in the tale I related above and that was from the lips of the woman from Atlanta.
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#34127
06/30/2001 7:22 PM
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The history books do not mention it, but a very potent source of Southern male motivation to fight was the threat of loss of a source of pleasure that DNA evidence suggests President Jefferson indulged in.
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#34128
06/30/2001 7:28 PM
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I think for most of the males fighting for the South indulging in that source of pleasure would have been considered a violation of property rights.
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#34129
06/30/2001 7:42 PM
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Brandon, until I move to NYS I am currently a resident of Georgia and will do due research. My mother is a retired Atlanta schooteacher and my sister is a kindergarten teacher *up there near Cherokee County. I'll check this out, and thanks for pointing it out! [consternation e] Faldage, 
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#34130
06/30/2001 10:29 PM
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a violation of property rights.
But not of human rights.
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#34131
06/30/2001 10:41 PM
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As we discuss The War Between The States and it's nomenclature (the denouement of which I await with great interest), I think it only proper to pause on this anniversary eve of the terrible and decisive Battle of Gettysburg (July 1-3, 1863) to note the sacrifices of Americans on both sides of that awful conflagration...from the near-annihilation on the first day of both Gen. Iverson's North Carolina Brigade and Wisconsin's famed Iron Brigade, to Little Round Top, to the "High Water Mark of the Confederacy" and the stand of Gen Hancock at the same spot as the climax of "Pickett's (and Pettigrew's) Charge." I dip my hat to them all for the great sacrifices that forged this nation. I'm not a warmonger, but I always feel this needs to be said because people tend to forget Gettysburg against the background of the 4th of July (ironically).
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#34132
07/01/2001 10:58 PM
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You don't say The Civil War around there...it's always The War Between The States.
This is something I've always been mystified about. What is it about the appellation Civil War that is controversial?
I'm not asking in order to stir up argument or anything like that-- I really am confused about this.
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#34133
07/01/2001 11:10 PM
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Brandon, I consulted my mom, who is retired from DeKalb County (urban Atlanta) and also, like your friend, she worked on curriculum development. Her explanation is that (how shall I put this delicately?) Cherokee County is still very "Southern" and therefore she is not surprised that their criteria for selecting history books might be a little skewed. Apologies to your friend in advance. I'm just quoting here (and I did refrain from using the term redneck) [duck-and-cover]
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#34134
07/02/2001 1:17 AM
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Thanks for your digging, AnnaS. I've thought about what it means to be "Southern" (and consider me no expert). I do remember reading an article published by a North Carolina or Virginia newspaper during the 1996 Summer Olympics that talked about a study on the differences between New Yorkers and Deep Southerners. (I can find no trace of the article through my Internet searches, so if anyone knows anything on this, please post)
The test had subjects walk down a hallway to "fill out some paperwork." A guy opens a filing cabinet to block their path, huffs, and closes it quickly while they walk by. The subject is then immediately tested for symptoms of stress (blood pressure, heart rate, etc.).
The study revealed that New Yorkers were actually put at ease when "offended" by the guy in the hallway. Conversely, the Southerns were so much more offended (to the point, I think, that a few punches were almost thrown). Culture sure is different between the Capital of the North and the Capital of the South.
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#34135
07/02/2001 12:19 PM
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A friend of mine from South Carolina told me about a situation in which difference in culture had a disastrous effect. My friend and the very cultured (Boston style) son of a Harvard professor were trying to get a patent on a medical laboratory device. In explaining it to a Virginian patent attorney, when the attorney failed to understand a point, the Northener in a way that would be perfectly accepted at Harvard interrupted the Virginian to save time. Without any change in expression or tone, the Virginian froze, and no further discussion was possible. The South Carolinian had to explain later to the Bostonian what had gone wrong.
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#34136
07/02/2001 12:45 PM
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Brandon mentions a test performed on NewYawkuhs and Southroners, to wit: The test had subjects walk down a hallway to "fill out some paperwork." A guy opens a filing cabinet to block their path, huffs, and closes it quickly while they walk by. The subject is then immediately tested for symptoms of stress (blood pressure, heart rate, etc.).
I heard of a similar test that has been run on NYCers and Memphians. They had someone accost people on the street asking for directions and the Memphians proved to be significantly more polite to the accosters. A resident of NYC, realizing that the tests, having been run in the respective cities, carried a certain bias so he reran the test but this time, to even things out a little, planted some street people to pre-accost the subjects in Memphis with demands for spare change and the like. This to simulate the NYC experience a little better. In the field leveled test the NewYawkuhs scored significantly better than the Memphians.
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#34137
07/02/2001 1:15 PM
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Brandon, i think that is a perfect example of a NYer's reaction.. but i am not sure it would hold true for NYer's not from NY, NY. we are a special breed--
AnnaS is not a native, and has lived here-- and i am sure she could point out some on NY, NYer's habits even better than i could-- since i have lived here all my life, and just think some things are normal-- like 24 hour dinner (and as NY rule, dinner are owned by Greeks, 24 delis by Korean, daytime sandwich shops Chinese or Jewish, 24 hour gas stations, Turks) and 24 hour mass transit.. and 24 hour traffic jams-- It not uncommon to find a 20 minute delay getting onto say the 59th Street bridge at 10 PM on a weekday..jaywalking-- eating from street venders (and having a wide range ethnic foods being offered from street vendors-- local mix includes hot dogs and knishes, or falafal, or fruit smoothies, or baked (white or sweet) potatoes.. else where you can get Worst, or BBQ, or rice and beans.. )
NYer's also have localize names for lots of things-- just to drive visitors crazy-- like i take the IRT to work but i could take the IND-- and if you look on NYC subway maps-- there is no reference to IRT, IND or BMT-- (technically, these terms became obsolete 50 years ago..) but NYer's still use them.. most map makers are now smart enought to add (6th Ave) to The Avenue of the Americas-- a street name that is only used by out of towners...and the post office.
There is also a code about soldier on horses and statues.. if the horse has all four feet on the ground-- the soldier did not die in battle or related to battle -- One foot off the ground-- the soldier died of wounds related to battle (even if years later..) and two feet off the ground, the soldier died in battle..
and its not just southern who make the comment about "making the lady walk"..
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#34138
07/02/2001 1:34 PM
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There is also a code about soldier on horses and statues.. if the horse has all four feet on the ground-- the soldier did not die in battle or related to battle -- One foot off the ground-- the soldier died of wounds related to battle (even if years later..) and two feet off the ground, the soldier died in battle..
And if the horse has all four feet off the ground?
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#34139
07/02/2001 1:50 PM
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And if the horse has all four feet off the ground?Then it is the famous Chinese statue "The Flying Horse" which I saw at an exhibition of Chinese art at the Boston Museum of Fine Art (The MFA.) It is charming and I bought the silver "charm" for my bracelet. Later Edit : Here's a link that ties in nicely with Kentucky AND the Flying Horse (Hi Jackie) http://lexington.miningco.com/citiestowns/southeastus/lexington/library/blChinahorse.htm
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#34140
07/02/2001 1:56 PM
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Then you are at the race track at the Meadowlands..
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#34141
07/02/2001 2:08 PM
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"making the lady walk"..
I haven't seen the statues, but sight unseen I'll bet five will get you ten that the lady was not properly attired to ride astride. And I'll bet few war horses would tolerate a crupper occupant. Nor would military protocol permit it.
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#34142
07/02/2001 2:09 PM
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Then you are at the race track at the Meadowlands..
... or in a Marc Chagall painting...
Helen, I don't think I can add a thing to your post about Noo Yawkers. Actually, I *am a native (Brooklyn-born) but didn't live there very long and only returned to Manhattan in 1995 for a three-year gig.
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#34143
07/02/2001 3:30 PM
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Often transplanted NYer's see things that we all the time residents don't see (or see differently) *
No, make that transplants -- from anywhere see things differently.
I have a friend from DC, who lived in Japan for a while, when first back in US, she lived in Atlanta--I went to visit her, and both of us loved the kudzo--i understand that most southerners hate it.. (and i might well hate it, if i had to live with it..) but as visitor, i thought it beautiful.-- My friend said it reminder her of Japan.. we both had very different perspectives than natives.
(and i didn't like Atlanta much-- i am so used to a city with a vital 24 hour down town.. in atlanta-- there were plenty of wonder places-- but you had to drive to them.. and all were out side the city core (i am not sure of where the city line was.. but most clubs, etc. where in malls) it had to me a very un-city feel.).
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#34144
07/02/2001 5:10 PM
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Often transplanted NYer's see things that we all the time residents don't see (or see differently) Yep, Helen, very true. But you have a clear vision of your city, and I congratulate you on that. (and i didn't like Atlanta much-- i am so used to a city with a vital 24 hour down town.. in atlanta-- there were plenty of wonder places-- but you had to drive to them.. and all were out side the city core (i am not sure of where the city line was.. but most clubs, etc. where in malls) it had to me a very un-city feel.). Yep again. After having lived 18 years in São Paulo and 3 in Manhattan, I agree with you that Atlanta is a faux (pardon my French) city and I assure you, I'm happy to be leaving it (for more than one reason , including my dislike of the insidious kudzu).
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#34145
07/02/2001 5:26 PM
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my dislike of the insidious kudzu).
When I was in Atlanta in WWII, a dairyman named Callaway was proud of having introduced kudzu.It is an excellent fodder for animals, but grows too well in places where it can't be harvested.
There were a lot of things to like in Atlanta, including a "fishbowl" of beer for fifteen cents.
The biggest problem I had was that I had to carry a light weight jacket, as the uniform comfortable at 5 pm just wasn't comfortable when the temperature dropped after dusk and it got really chilly.
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#34146
07/02/2001 5:34 PM
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When I was in Atlanta in WWII…
Ah, whatever became of the Good Old Days, when we used to say, "Whatever became of the Good Old Days"?
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#34147
07/02/2001 5:38 PM
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Yes, Dr Bill, I grew up in Atlanta in the 60s and it was a good place to be (maybe not so good as in the 40s). But it has not improved with age. In fact, the town now beats out L.A. in the 'worst pollution' and 'most dire commute' categories.
and yes, kudzu is a pretty vine, but as you pointed out, it's done too well here. It climbs up the pines and kills them. You can *actually sit around and watch it grow.
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#34148
07/02/2001 6:20 PM
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I'm glad to have been brought up in a small town. It was a much happier place for kids than any I know of today.
I had many, many freedoms that cannot be allowed today.
The price of progress is truly painful in many ways. Yet in my old age I like it here in LA. I did get robbed of sixty bucks by a pair of crooks posing as policemen the second day I was here
But I can walk my two miles twice a day on sidewalks all the way, and only a couple crossings where I may have to wait for traffic light to change in my favor. Even on the hot days we are having now, I can walk in AM before it gets too warm, and most evenings there is a breeze that compensates for high eighty temps.
The only way pollution bothers me is that every couple weeks I have to clean a bit of dust off lawn chairs and tables.And in the large lovely park I don't have to worry about "red bugs" as I did in Atlanta.And no Lyme disease.
I envy Capital Kiwi having had the energy to see far more of LA than I ever will
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#34149
07/02/2001 8:58 PM
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as a technical trainer-- i have to lead people into new applications.. --which is change.. some people like change, some dislike it.. but even people who like change, don't like when it is forced on them. (an example, some people hate to change jobs, other people are always "jumping" to new positions, but no one like to be let go, layed off or fired.)
So i have to help people like something (against their better nature.. ) Yes, Dr. bill you had some freedoms that don't exist today-- but today's kids have freedom you didn't have. We've had Jazzo & Jim the dog, and other youngsters visit and contribute to this board-- Did you have the freedom to meet and converse with doctors, lawyers, educators, and other profressionals from all over the world (as an equal!) when you where in HS? This is a wonderful freedom! things have changed, and in someways, children do lead more restrictive lives.. but in other ways, new worlds have opened..
Economics plays a part -- all of us do not have the same opportunites.. but I love that i have friends (who i might never meet) in India, and indoneasia, europe, down under and all over these United states... i can afford to travel -- but not as much as i would like-- but i do feel like i travel a bit every day..
and when i do really travel-- it is much easier to do than it was when you were young.. I went to ireland as child in 1960- it was an eight hour flight-- but just 15 years before, when my parents immigrated.. it was still such a big deal, my father thought he'd never go back-- and my children have been to japan-- my daughter flying by herself--aged 17. How long a trip would that have been in your childhood? (14 hours, non stop ny to narita) could you imagine going? on your own? -- no it's not usual-- but it's not unusual either... economics dictates that some of us can only travel by that sturdiest of frigates, a book, but many contributors here have covered half the globe (and CK is currently in the process of covering 2/3's!)
Nowdays, a small town is connected to the world..Freedom is not lost, it is changed..
(embrace change!)
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