#33914
06/27/2001 2:51 PM
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I know this has nothing to do with words, but I can't let something like this go by unmentioned. There is a song called the Battle of New Orleans, which states that the battle was in 1814. The battle was in 1815, and it seems to me that the date of a battle shouldn't be changed just because the war is over.
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#33915
06/27/2001 3:01 PM
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We took a little trip Along with Col Jackson down the mighty Mississip We took a little bacon and we took a little beans And we met the bloody British in a town called New Orleans. According to this site http://lsm.crt.state.la.us/cabildo/cab6.htm which appears to be reasonably trustworthy, being a State of Louisiana site, the battle started in 1814 and since the song merely uses 1814 as the year of the trip taken *to the battle site I can see no reason to fault the librettist for historical inaccuracies.
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#33916
06/27/2001 3:18 PM
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I continue to believe that I'm right, but as I've misplaced my sources, and I couldn't be bothered to look it up elsewhere, we'll leave it at that. That site might have made a small mistake.
I'm right and they know it.
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#33917
06/27/2001 3:19 PM
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the Battle of New Orleans, which states that the battle was in 1814. The battle was in 1815
I'm a little shaky on my feet, so excuse me not getting up. Now I remember me when I was along side of Major General Andrew Jackson, now let me see, it must've been late 1814, down south somewhere. "Andy" I sez , as no-one else was around to hear the familiarity, "looks like those damn'd British are looking for to fight their way into this town. Now if we let them look for us in this December fog, we can shoot as many as we can and then fade away into the bayou. They have about 3 times as many as us. And we can keep doing that until they give up. It amy take a few days, and we'll have to stop for Christmas Day and the New Years bash, but it won't be far into January when we've finished them." "Sounds like a good idea to me" says Major General Andy and so that's how it was.
Pass me my pipe will you, there's a good lad.
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#33918
06/27/2001 3:27 PM
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we'll have to stop for Christmas Day and the New Years bash
Do you think we'd do the same thing your hessians did in the Revolution? They were partying on Cristmas Eve, were told repeatedly that we were coming to attack them and that they would be slaughtered if they didn't put the beer back and fight, and they got slaughtered. They wouldn't have been slaughtered as bad if they hadn't been slautering us previously, so we got our revenge.
edit Funny how we're talking about a war with England, and I've been listening to the enemy's music: The Beatles.
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#33919
06/27/2001 3:56 PM
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war is brutal-- and many die.. I don't think most soldiers start out with the intent to "slaughter" the enemy-- and its sad that, at times that is what happens.
I don't think Washington or troops where out for revenge.. rather, war was waged because the value system of the people living in the American states had changed.. we no longer saw ourselves as "english-- living in the America's" but rather as New Yorkers, or Virginians.. The revolution war change a political situation that existed -- and allowed people in the america's to establish a government that suited their needs.. (of course Washington was very glad of the succes of the battle at trenton, not only for morale-- but for the food and supplies the troops claimed as spoils of war.)
Shelby Foote said one major impact of the civil war to change us again-- we went from being citizens of a state-- (new yorkers) to being citizens of the United States of America (americans) In language "These United States" (a conglomerate) became "The United States" a single enity. (Lee was offered the change to head the Union army-- but passed, as he saw himself as first a citizen of Virginia..)
and as for taking off for christmas-- yes, they did-- the English did it because they thought it civilized, Jackson did it as he awaited supplies and ammunition.. (even the song makes comment on "running out of cannon" )Jackson spent Christmas at an Ursaline convent.. (the people of New Orleans where not to sure about him.. and he wasn't, before the desisive victory to well liked.)
When the song about the battle of New orleans became popular-- i was in elementary school-- and the local ursuline nuns where still proud of the part the ursulines had played in the battle!-- our school had serveral copies of a children's history book about the battle.(the convent where jackson spent christmas was Our Lady of Prompt Succor.}
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#33920
06/27/2001 3:58 PM
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reference for you not to look up http://www.thehistorynet.com/HistoricTraveler/articles/1998/03989_text.htmTo sum things up here: A) Maj Genl Andrew Jackson moved into the New Orleans area in the late fall of 1814 (In 1814 we took a little trip…). 2) On December 23, 1814 the British moved in to the area. Jackson launched a surprise raid against the British that convinced them to delay any further action until they got support from their fleet. Þ) On December 28, 1814 the British attacked again and were repulsed. They waited until the first week of January 1815 before they attacked again in what was the culmination of the battle. Irregardless, in 1814 they took a little trip. For complete lyrics of the song see http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/9198/war1812/w1812f.htmThe Treaty of Ghent, ending the war was signed on December 24, 1814. http://www.multied.com/1812/Ghent.html
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#33921
06/27/2001 4:03 PM
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Re: the edit--
--Well i don't consider the english enemies-- even if i am not very happy with the political situation in ireland*- and mentally label them "bloody brits".. but BB's are a nameless, faceless group-- individuals-- are never thought that way..
*Notice i said ireland-- the whole notion that 6 provinces are not part of the history land is preposterous!
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#33922
06/27/2001 4:05 PM
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the whole notion that 6 provinces are not part of the history land is preposterous!
Take it down from the mast, Irish traitors?
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#33923
06/27/2001 4:07 PM
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In one of the battles before Trenton, the Hessians were sticking their bayonets right through our soldiers, when they needed no help in reaching death. We got mad because of the Hessian's cruelty to people who were barely alive, so we were fighting extra hard at Trenton.
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#33924
06/27/2001 4:13 PM
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Well i don't consider the english enemies
They wer enemies in this time, and I thought it was peculiar that I was listening to british music while talking about a time when we were at war with them.
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#33925
06/27/2001 4:23 PM
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The Battle of New Orleans of the War of 1812 was fought on January 8, 1815, b
"New Orleans, Battle of," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
The tragic thing is that the battle was fought after the peace treaty had been signed. News travelled slowly then.
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#33926
06/27/2001 4:34 PM
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Jimmy Driftwood never *said when the *battle was fought.
"In 1814 we took a little trip,"
That's the onliest date in the whole song.
It was in 1814 that Jackson moved into the New Orleans area. Action between U.S. and Brit troops started in 1814. The culmination of the whole affair was in 1815 but I don't see that Jimmy Driftwood can be held responsible for anyone's misinterpretation of his lyrics.
Now, for extra credit, who won the War of 1812?
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#33927
06/27/2001 4:42 PM
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#33928
06/27/2001 4:53 PM
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mav suggests Australia
Good a guess as any.
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#33929
06/27/2001 5:01 PM
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old hand
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Irregardless, in 1814 they took a little trip.Irregardless is one of those makes-my-teeth itch things. (Sorry, Faldage, nothing personal.) You don't need the extra "ir-" on the front! 
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#33930
06/27/2001 5:04 PM
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Now, for extra credit, who won the War of 1812?Well obviously not the Americans or we wouldn't be a separate country now, would we?  From CBC's pages about their documentary of Canadian History (A People's History): "The mass migration of Loyalists that follows [the American Revolution] - more than 40,000 people in all - creates an English-speaking Canada virtually overnight. Over the next 30 years, the colony continues to develop. When the next American invaders arrive in 1812, they are fought to a stand-still at the battles of Queenston Heights, Chateauguay and Lundy's Lane, setting boundaries that remain today. "
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#33931
06/27/2001 5:05 PM
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Sorry, Bean, but irregardless of whether or not you do or don't need it or not, I continue to use it.
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#33932
06/27/2001 5:09 PM
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No one. Say, faldage, where are you? someone on the chat Sparteye made said you lived near me.
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#33933
06/27/2001 5:10 PM
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Bean opines obviously not the Americans
Also good!
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#33934
06/27/2001 5:16 PM
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faldage, where are you?
YCLIU
FWIW, I've been to baseball games in Cohocton, Wellsville and Hornell.
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#33935
06/27/2001 5:19 PM
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Hmmmmm........... That close, huh.
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#33936
06/27/2001 8:12 PM
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newbie
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I've been to baseball games in Cohocton, Wellsville and Hornell.
Cohocton and Wellsville! What teams play there? I only knew about the Hornell Dodgers.
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#33937
06/27/2001 9:02 PM
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who won?Jean Lafitte!...he made out like a bandit! (But, then again, he was a pirate, wasn't he?}
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#33938
06/28/2001 7:36 AM
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told repeatedly that they would be slaughtered if they didn't put the beer back and fightThere's always some party-pooper isn't there! And this incident when the mercenaries got slaughtered because of partying led to the immortal phrase "Sack the Hessians!"  Enjoy the music, that has to be international. Rod
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#33939
06/28/2001 9:52 AM
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the whole notion that 6 provinces are not part of the history land is preposterous
without wishing to offend anyone's sensibilities, I think that most of the BBs would agree with you, if only to turn their back on the problem. Unfortunately (my choice of adjective) a large proportion of the inhabitants of Ulster feel differently. The solution, as to many of these problems, is simple and can be found about 400 years ago.
And without wishing to deny the seriousness of any of these situations, there was a joke at the time of the Falklands crisis, which stated that the deal to allow the Argentinians to take over the Malvinas fell through because the Argintinians refused to take Northern Ireland along with them.
And to correct the geographical terminology Helen and I both misused in different ways, Ulster is one of the ancient provinces of Ireland, comprising 9 counties, 6 of which are:-
oppressed under the yoke of English occupation/enjoying the benefits of being part of the United Kingdom*
delete whichever
Rod
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#33940
06/28/2001 12:17 PM
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Cohocton and Wellsville! What teams play there?
Cohocton RedWings (defunct) and Wellsville Nitros (still extant, I think -- ICLIU)
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#33941
06/28/2001 12:40 PM
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Jean Lafitte!Another good answer! Plus he got Yul Brynner to play him in the movie!
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#33942
06/28/2001 5:36 PM
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journeyman
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No one? 'Cuz the war warn't over 'til later?
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#33943
06/28/2001 6:02 PM
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a well negotiated treaty-- each side got to salvage some pride, and claim victory..
The english got a secure border for Canada-- and other stuff– (mostly a reduction of american piracy– Captain Kidd, and other new yorkers had been playing a bit free and easy with english ships..) the americans got to have some sovereignty – and ship hands could no longer be dragooned from american ships.. Some trade agreements got made, too.
(so I guess it was a draw)
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#33944
06/28/2001 6:22 PM
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Speaking of words...
hands could no longer be dragooned from american ships
Is this a common usage of this one? I knew exactly what was meant, but haven't heard it used this way, in the sense of shanghai: To kidnap (a man) for compulsory service aboard a ship, especially after drugging him. ETYMOLOGY: After Shanghai, from the former custom of kidnapping sailors to man ships going to China. (Courtesy AHD)
The term used more broadly, without the connotation of drugging anybody, was "press," where the press-gangs would go out and collect men off the street to serve aboard ship, but that sense of the word has definitely faded.
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#33945
06/28/2001 6:23 PM
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(so I guess it was a draw)
Best answer yet! We were on the losing side but our part in it was pretty much a draw.
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#33946
06/28/2001 7:22 PM
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Yes-- i think it is-- when a sailor was shanghi-ed or pressed-- he was force (kidnaped ) to serve as a seaman on a ship --likely one that didn't have a very good captain, or wasn't profitable. or for someother reason had trouble getting hands..
but the english where dragooning. they were forcable removing seahand they decided were english-- some men had come to US to avoid the draft-- but others, had come as immigrants to US-- and had lived in US 5 to 10 years.. no matter-- there was this ongoing battle with a little man from corisa on the continent of europe... So the men were not being forced to be serve as sailors-- they were being forced to serve in the navy.. hence dragooned..
likewise, NY pirates (now know as wall street traders) were busy raiding french and spanish shipping- but when picking got slim-- they started raiding english ships-- which the english didn't take to kindly to.. there were also pirated from other ports, but NY had a fearsome reputation for pirating.. (NY social values, then as now, valued money more highly than the sourse of the money.. )
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#33947
06/28/2001 10:48 PM
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Helen storifies: to serve as a seaman on a ship
Ye Gods! Were he to be condemend to seaman duty on land!! (I didn't understand much of the rest of the post, but do love stream-of-consciousness as a literary device [evil-grin emoticon])
Helen, you inspire, I deliver (and only tease the ones I care about).
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#33948
06/28/2001 11:09 PM
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Beethoven had second thoughts. Tchaikovsky didn't need to.
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#33949
06/28/2001 11:40 PM
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To preserve Britain's naval strength, Royal Navy officers impressed thousands of seamen from U.S. vessels, including naturalized Americans of British origin, claiming that they were either deserters or British subjects. The United States defended its right to naturalize foreigners and challenged the British practice of impressment on the high seas. Relations between the two nations reached a breaking point in 1807 when the British frigate Leopard fired on the USS Chesapeake in American territorial waters and removed, and later executed, four seamen.
"War of 1812," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
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#33950
06/29/2001 10:54 AM
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old hand
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helen wrote: a well negotiated treaty-- each side got to salvage some pride, and claim victory.. That was what I was referring to in the CBC quote (which said something about "fighting to a standstill"). It is interesting that we were taught in school that Canada actually won that war. (I'm realizing in retrospect that a particular teacher of mine really hated Americans, and this tainted her lessons somewhat*. She also told us that in the US, children aren't even taught about that war, because they can't admit that they lost...boy, was she bitter or what?!?!?!) In Canada, we don't consider it a war between the British and the US, but between Canada and the US, because Britain wasn't too successful at actually sending too many troops to help us out, as far as I know. Most of the soldiers were Canadian, although officers were British. Needless to say, without the local knowledge of the land provided by the Canadians, the British couldn't possibly have had any success against the US. They say that if the French, English, and Native people here hadn't gotten together to keep out the US'ns then we would definitely have lost, and become part of the US. It is also interesting that that is probably the last time those three groups ever agreed on something!  *I'm beginning to feel extremely betrayed by this particular teacher - as I check the "facts" I learned from her, I realize that she was full of %#!$. Makes me reluctant to comment on history at all, since I had her for two history classes in high school, and my brain is probably stuffed with erroneous knowledge!
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#33951
06/29/2001 11:15 AM
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as I check the "facts" I learned from her, I realize that she was full of %#!$
What else did she tell you?
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#33952
06/29/2001 12:37 PM
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we were taught in school that Canada actually won that war
I think that, from the Canadian perspective you *did win the war. Y'all were innocently sitting there and US'ns wanted to "liberate" you from the yoke of the evil Brits. You successfully staved us off. You won.
in the US, children aren't even taught about that war
Not quite. We were taught that it was about the impressment of sailors and that we stopped that so we won. From a broader perspective, we came out, as of troy stated, with something like a draw, but, looking at the war from a more global perspective as AnnaS points out in her Beethoven/Tchaikovsky post, we were on the losing side. We don't go into that when we are filling *our little kiddies with *our version of the lies of history.
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#33953
06/29/2001 12:58 PM
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re: We were taught that it was about the impressment of sailors and that we stopped that so we won.
well a little more--Jackson's battle at N. O. is always trotted out, our big victory, as proof that we would have won- and the burning of Washington-- and the heroic rescue of Washingtons portrait.. but yes-- it is always presented as "the english where being bad, we had a war, the badness stopped" ergo-- we won.
All history is written by the winners-- we here in US still have trouble admitting how wrong we were to get involved with Vietnam, and how much wrong we did there.. my early education was at a catholic school-- and as result - i learned about Henry VIII's daughter-- "good Queen Mary"-- who tried to restore the catholic church to England-- by killing as many heritics as she could.. she is more commonly known in history as "bloody mary"-- and i fully confess to having very little real knowledge of african history (the congo comes to mind)-- Lubumba, and Mabutu (not sure of spelling) where presented as heathens-- and murderers-- and 7 nuns where matyred.. no facts--
just emotions.. interesting how the choice of words-- can change view of history--
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