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I know this has nothing to do with words, but I can't let something like this go by unmentioned. There is a song called the Battle of New Orleans, which states that the battle was in 1814. The battle was in 1815, and it seems to me that the date of a battle shouldn't be changed just because the war is over.
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We took a little trip Along with Col Jackson down the mighty Mississip We took a little bacon and we took a little beans And we met the bloody British in a town called New Orleans. According to this site http://lsm.crt.state.la.us/cabildo/cab6.htm which appears to be reasonably trustworthy, being a State of Louisiana site, the battle started in 1814 and since the song merely uses 1814 as the year of the trip taken *to the battle site I can see no reason to fault the librettist for historical inaccuracies.
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I continue to believe that I'm right, but as I've misplaced my sources, and I couldn't be bothered to look it up elsewhere, we'll leave it at that. That site might have made a small mistake.
I'm right and they know it.
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the Battle of New Orleans, which states that the battle was in 1814. The battle was in 1815
I'm a little shaky on my feet, so excuse me not getting up. Now I remember me when I was along side of Major General Andrew Jackson, now let me see, it must've been late 1814, down south somewhere. "Andy" I sez , as no-one else was around to hear the familiarity, "looks like those damn'd British are looking for to fight their way into this town. Now if we let them look for us in this December fog, we can shoot as many as we can and then fade away into the bayou. They have about 3 times as many as us. And we can keep doing that until they give up. It amy take a few days, and we'll have to stop for Christmas Day and the New Years bash, but it won't be far into January when we've finished them." "Sounds like a good idea to me" says Major General Andy and so that's how it was.
Pass me my pipe will you, there's a good lad.
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we'll have to stop for Christmas Day and the New Years bash
Do you think we'd do the same thing your hessians did in the Revolution? They were partying on Cristmas Eve, were told repeatedly that we were coming to attack them and that they would be slaughtered if they didn't put the beer back and fight, and they got slaughtered. They wouldn't have been slaughtered as bad if they hadn't been slautering us previously, so we got our revenge.
edit Funny how we're talking about a war with England, and I've been listening to the enemy's music: The Beatles.
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war is brutal-- and many die.. I don't think most soldiers start out with the intent to "slaughter" the enemy-- and its sad that, at times that is what happens.
I don't think Washington or troops where out for revenge.. rather, war was waged because the value system of the people living in the American states had changed.. we no longer saw ourselves as "english-- living in the America's" but rather as New Yorkers, or Virginians.. The revolution war change a political situation that existed -- and allowed people in the america's to establish a government that suited their needs.. (of course Washington was very glad of the succes of the battle at trenton, not only for morale-- but for the food and supplies the troops claimed as spoils of war.)
Shelby Foote said one major impact of the civil war to change us again-- we went from being citizens of a state-- (new yorkers) to being citizens of the United States of America (americans) In language "These United States" (a conglomerate) became "The United States" a single enity. (Lee was offered the change to head the Union army-- but passed, as he saw himself as first a citizen of Virginia..)
and as for taking off for christmas-- yes, they did-- the English did it because they thought it civilized, Jackson did it as he awaited supplies and ammunition.. (even the song makes comment on "running out of cannon" )Jackson spent Christmas at an Ursaline convent.. (the people of New Orleans where not to sure about him.. and he wasn't, before the desisive victory to well liked.)
When the song about the battle of New orleans became popular-- i was in elementary school-- and the local ursuline nuns where still proud of the part the ursulines had played in the battle!-- our school had serveral copies of a children's history book about the battle.(the convent where jackson spent christmas was Our Lady of Prompt Succor.}
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reference for you not to look up http://www.thehistorynet.com/HistoricTraveler/articles/1998/03989_text.htmTo sum things up here: A) Maj Genl Andrew Jackson moved into the New Orleans area in the late fall of 1814 (In 1814 we took a little trip…). 2) On December 23, 1814 the British moved in to the area. Jackson launched a surprise raid against the British that convinced them to delay any further action until they got support from their fleet. Þ) On December 28, 1814 the British attacked again and were repulsed. They waited until the first week of January 1815 before they attacked again in what was the culmination of the battle. Irregardless, in 1814 they took a little trip. For complete lyrics of the song see http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/9198/war1812/w1812f.htmThe Treaty of Ghent, ending the war was signed on December 24, 1814. http://www.multied.com/1812/Ghent.html
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Re: the edit--
--Well i don't consider the english enemies-- even if i am not very happy with the political situation in ireland*- and mentally label them "bloody brits".. but BB's are a nameless, faceless group-- individuals-- are never thought that way..
*Notice i said ireland-- the whole notion that 6 provinces are not part of the history land is preposterous!
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the whole notion that 6 provinces are not part of the history land is preposterous!
Take it down from the mast, Irish traitors?
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In one of the battles before Trenton, the Hessians were sticking their bayonets right through our soldiers, when they needed no help in reaching death. We got mad because of the Hessian's cruelty to people who were barely alive, so we were fighting extra hard at Trenton.
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Well i don't consider the english enemies
They wer enemies in this time, and I thought it was peculiar that I was listening to british music while talking about a time when we were at war with them.
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The Battle of New Orleans of the War of 1812 was fought on January 8, 1815, b
"New Orleans, Battle of," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
The tragic thing is that the battle was fought after the peace treaty had been signed. News travelled slowly then.
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Jimmy Driftwood never *said when the *battle was fought.
"In 1814 we took a little trip,"
That's the onliest date in the whole song.
It was in 1814 that Jackson moved into the New Orleans area. Action between U.S. and Brit troops started in 1814. The culmination of the whole affair was in 1815 but I don't see that Jimmy Driftwood can be held responsible for anyone's misinterpretation of his lyrics.
Now, for extra credit, who won the War of 1812?
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mav suggests Australia
Good a guess as any.
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Irregardless, in 1814 they took a little trip.Irregardless is one of those makes-my-teeth itch things. (Sorry, Faldage, nothing personal.) You don't need the extra "ir-" on the front! 
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Now, for extra credit, who won the War of 1812?Well obviously not the Americans or we wouldn't be a separate country now, would we?  From CBC's pages about their documentary of Canadian History (A People's History): "The mass migration of Loyalists that follows [the American Revolution] - more than 40,000 people in all - creates an English-speaking Canada virtually overnight. Over the next 30 years, the colony continues to develop. When the next American invaders arrive in 1812, they are fought to a stand-still at the battles of Queenston Heights, Chateauguay and Lundy's Lane, setting boundaries that remain today. "
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Sorry, Bean, but irregardless of whether or not you do or don't need it or not, I continue to use it.
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No one. Say, faldage, where are you? someone on the chat Sparteye made said you lived near me.
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Bean opines obviously not the Americans
Also good!
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faldage, where are you?
YCLIU
FWIW, I've been to baseball games in Cohocton, Wellsville and Hornell.
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Hmmmmm........... That close, huh.
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I've been to baseball games in Cohocton, Wellsville and Hornell.
Cohocton and Wellsville! What teams play there? I only knew about the Hornell Dodgers.
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who won?Jean Lafitte!...he made out like a bandit! (But, then again, he was a pirate, wasn't he?}
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told repeatedly that they would be slaughtered if they didn't put the beer back and fightThere's always some party-pooper isn't there! And this incident when the mercenaries got slaughtered because of partying led to the immortal phrase "Sack the Hessians!"  Enjoy the music, that has to be international. Rod
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the whole notion that 6 provinces are not part of the history land is preposterous
without wishing to offend anyone's sensibilities, I think that most of the BBs would agree with you, if only to turn their back on the problem. Unfortunately (my choice of adjective) a large proportion of the inhabitants of Ulster feel differently. The solution, as to many of these problems, is simple and can be found about 400 years ago.
And without wishing to deny the seriousness of any of these situations, there was a joke at the time of the Falklands crisis, which stated that the deal to allow the Argentinians to take over the Malvinas fell through because the Argintinians refused to take Northern Ireland along with them.
And to correct the geographical terminology Helen and I both misused in different ways, Ulster is one of the ancient provinces of Ireland, comprising 9 counties, 6 of which are:-
oppressed under the yoke of English occupation/enjoying the benefits of being part of the United Kingdom*
delete whichever
Rod
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Cohocton and Wellsville! What teams play there?
Cohocton RedWings (defunct) and Wellsville Nitros (still extant, I think -- ICLIU)
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Jean Lafitte!Another good answer! Plus he got Yul Brynner to play him in the movie!
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No one? 'Cuz the war warn't over 'til later?
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a well negotiated treaty-- each side got to salvage some pride, and claim victory..
The english got a secure border for Canada-- and other stuff– (mostly a reduction of american piracy– Captain Kidd, and other new yorkers had been playing a bit free and easy with english ships..) the americans got to have some sovereignty – and ship hands could no longer be dragooned from american ships.. Some trade agreements got made, too.
(so I guess it was a draw)
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Speaking of words...
hands could no longer be dragooned from american ships
Is this a common usage of this one? I knew exactly what was meant, but haven't heard it used this way, in the sense of shanghai: To kidnap (a man) for compulsory service aboard a ship, especially after drugging him. ETYMOLOGY: After Shanghai, from the former custom of kidnapping sailors to man ships going to China. (Courtesy AHD)
The term used more broadly, without the connotation of drugging anybody, was "press," where the press-gangs would go out and collect men off the street to serve aboard ship, but that sense of the word has definitely faded.
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(so I guess it was a draw)
Best answer yet! We were on the losing side but our part in it was pretty much a draw.
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Yes-- i think it is-- when a sailor was shanghi-ed or pressed-- he was force (kidnaped ) to serve as a seaman on a ship --likely one that didn't have a very good captain, or wasn't profitable. or for someother reason had trouble getting hands..
but the english where dragooning. they were forcable removing seahand they decided were english-- some men had come to US to avoid the draft-- but others, had come as immigrants to US-- and had lived in US 5 to 10 years.. no matter-- there was this ongoing battle with a little man from corisa on the continent of europe... So the men were not being forced to be serve as sailors-- they were being forced to serve in the navy.. hence dragooned..
likewise, NY pirates (now know as wall street traders) were busy raiding french and spanish shipping- but when picking got slim-- they started raiding english ships-- which the english didn't take to kindly to.. there were also pirated from other ports, but NY had a fearsome reputation for pirating.. (NY social values, then as now, valued money more highly than the sourse of the money.. )
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Helen storifies: to serve as a seaman on a ship
Ye Gods! Were he to be condemend to seaman duty on land!! (I didn't understand much of the rest of the post, but do love stream-of-consciousness as a literary device [evil-grin emoticon])
Helen, you inspire, I deliver (and only tease the ones I care about).
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Beethoven had second thoughts. Tchaikovsky didn't need to.
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To preserve Britain's naval strength, Royal Navy officers impressed thousands of seamen from U.S. vessels, including naturalized Americans of British origin, claiming that they were either deserters or British subjects. The United States defended its right to naturalize foreigners and challenged the British practice of impressment on the high seas. Relations between the two nations reached a breaking point in 1807 when the British frigate Leopard fired on the USS Chesapeake in American territorial waters and removed, and later executed, four seamen.
"War of 1812," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
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helen wrote: a well negotiated treaty-- each side got to salvage some pride, and claim victory.. That was what I was referring to in the CBC quote (which said something about "fighting to a standstill"). It is interesting that we were taught in school that Canada actually won that war. (I'm realizing in retrospect that a particular teacher of mine really hated Americans, and this tainted her lessons somewhat*. She also told us that in the US, children aren't even taught about that war, because they can't admit that they lost...boy, was she bitter or what?!?!?!) In Canada, we don't consider it a war between the British and the US, but between Canada and the US, because Britain wasn't too successful at actually sending too many troops to help us out, as far as I know. Most of the soldiers were Canadian, although officers were British. Needless to say, without the local knowledge of the land provided by the Canadians, the British couldn't possibly have had any success against the US. They say that if the French, English, and Native people here hadn't gotten together to keep out the US'ns then we would definitely have lost, and become part of the US. It is also interesting that that is probably the last time those three groups ever agreed on something!  *I'm beginning to feel extremely betrayed by this particular teacher - as I check the "facts" I learned from her, I realize that she was full of %#!$. Makes me reluctant to comment on history at all, since I had her for two history classes in high school, and my brain is probably stuffed with erroneous knowledge!
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as I check the "facts" I learned from her, I realize that she was full of %#!$
What else did she tell you?
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we were taught in school that Canada actually won that war
I think that, from the Canadian perspective you *did win the war. Y'all were innocently sitting there and US'ns wanted to "liberate" you from the yoke of the evil Brits. You successfully staved us off. You won.
in the US, children aren't even taught about that war
Not quite. We were taught that it was about the impressment of sailors and that we stopped that so we won. From a broader perspective, we came out, as of troy stated, with something like a draw, but, looking at the war from a more global perspective as AnnaS points out in her Beethoven/Tchaikovsky post, we were on the losing side. We don't go into that when we are filling *our little kiddies with *our version of the lies of history.
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re: We were taught that it was about the impressment of sailors and that we stopped that so we won.
well a little more--Jackson's battle at N. O. is always trotted out, our big victory, as proof that we would have won- and the burning of Washington-- and the heroic rescue of Washingtons portrait.. but yes-- it is always presented as "the english where being bad, we had a war, the badness stopped" ergo-- we won.
All history is written by the winners-- we here in US still have trouble admitting how wrong we were to get involved with Vietnam, and how much wrong we did there.. my early education was at a catholic school-- and as result - i learned about Henry VIII's daughter-- "good Queen Mary"-- who tried to restore the catholic church to England-- by killing as many heritics as she could.. she is more commonly known in history as "bloody mary"-- and i fully confess to having very little real knowledge of african history (the congo comes to mind)-- Lubumba, and Mabutu (not sure of spelling) where presented as heathens-- and murderers-- and 7 nuns where matyred.. no facts--
just emotions.. interesting how the choice of words-- can change view of history--
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the burning of Washington
None of my school books ever mentioned that the Americans burned various Canadian cities before they burned Washington, but I found them out when my dad showed me a history of Canada that said we did.
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What else did she tell you?Well, the definitive proof of her incompetence came when she tried to tell us that the name Montreal was a misnomer, because there was not actually a "Mount Royal" in Montreal. That seemed extremely suspect since I had been there and climbed Mount Royal on a rather warm day, and I was pretty sure I wasn't imagining things... The scary part is wondering how much incorrect information I got from her that I spout back on occasion to prove a point! This is why I check my Canadian history facts with other sources these days, because I "learned" them in her class...
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wondering how much incorrect information I got from her
Well, Bean, I reckon you are well ahead of the herd. At least you are casting a critical eye over your own store of knowledge, which is, I think, the sign of true wisdom. Many people lack this insight.
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Speaking of the early US and Canada, I recall hearing somewhere that Nova Scotia was originally close with the 13 colonies and was actually a 14th colony, but they abstained from declaring independence with the others. I'm doubtful of the verity of this, but I found it interesting. It would seem logical that it wouldn't be discussed in US History texts if it is indeed true, but has anyone else heard about this?
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Nova Scotia was originally close with the 13 colonies and was actually a 14th colony
At the onset of the war, many loyalists fled to Canada and primarily, Nova Scotia. In mid-1776, the Revolutionary War turned towards Canada with the aim to make Canada as a whole a "fourteenth colony" and to remove it as a base from which Britain could launch attacks and invasions. Calling Canada the "attempted fourteenth colony" is common in then literature, but I could only find scattered references to Nova Scotia proper being named thus.
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Darn those double posts.
'S'all right, Sweetie. If it bothers you, just "Edit" and delete one. Though I think if you simply empty the text and subject boxes, the post quietly goes away, instead of leaving a line screaming Post Deleted by Brandon.
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Actually, if you look at the whole thing from a geopolitical point of view, although the British "won" the war, neither side really achieved its original war aims. In fact, the casus belli for the Americans (pressment of American sailors) wasn't even included in the articles of the Treaty of Ghent. The original war aims had got lost in the fog of war, rhetoric and poor communications.
What it all really proved was that the real cost of defending a country with a coastline as long as the US's was prohibitive given the communications and transportation available at the time. Similarly, the cost of attacking a country with a coastline as long as the US's was equally prohibitive. To win a territorial war, you must take and hold each piece of disputed territory. Neither side could do this in the War of 1812 - the Americans lacked the discipline necessary to achieve a successful invasion of Canada, and the British just really wanted the war to stop and were actually simply carrying out a police action. Their interests lay elsewhere at the time.
On the face of it, the Americans lost, hands down. At no time did they achieve their immediate battle aims in full, and they appeared to have no firm war aims at all. The Battle of New Orleans aside, they won few, if any, real and unequivocal victories, although the Indians fighting with them did. It cost a young country a bundle it could ill-afford for nothing other than a bit of national pride in return. Some say that it cemented the independence of the States, but that was pretty much a fait accompli by 1812 anyway, and I don't buy the argument.
FWIW.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Surprised no one has mentioned our "illustrious" National Athem, The Star-Spangled Banner in this discussion. Francis Scott Key wrote the lyric while watching the British shelling of Ft. McHenry in Baltimore Harbor during this war (Sept.13-14, 1814). And, consequently, the US wound up with The Star-Spangled (usually mangled) Banner as our National Anthem instead of America (the Beautiful). For that alone you could say we lost the war! But, of course, all through school we were taught we won the War of 1812 simply because we staved the British off from attempting to conquer and take back our young nation. But they also taught us that Lincoln freed the slaves and everybody lived happily ever after...(Reconstruction? Jim Crow? Sharecropping? What's all that?) One war they never taught us except for a mere mention was the Mexican - American War (1846-48). I always wondered why they didn't (because it was a mighty sizeable conflict) until I discovered that Gen. Winfield Scott, violating centuries of wartime "etiquette," ordered the shelling of Veracruz and its civilian population. Wouldn't want schoolchildren to think that we Americans were responsible for relaunching ancient (and, now, modern) barbarism back into warfare, now would we? Note: The they referred to is "my teachers," of course. Obviously, as already noted on this board, lesson plans vary tremendously for a variety of reasons!
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Yep, I've noted in a number of American publications that the British wanted to "take back" the United States. Yet as far as I can remember from my reading of history, nothing could be further from the truth. The British were fully occupied in Europe at the time, and, in any case, were not in the slightest bit interested in colonial self-aggrandisement. That came some years later, well after the Napoleonic Wars. They were damned annoyed at the US for stirring it up at the time, and their sole war aim was to prevent the US annexing Canada. Plus, there was probably a punitive element to their actions - burning Washington had no strategic value, and I'm sure they knew that. It amazes me that anyone could have thought that Britain was seriously considering reacquiring the US at that time. They provided the minimum resources of the lowest possible quality to stave the US off - with a few exceptions. They wanted peace in the Americas. The conflict cost them too much at an awkward time both militarily and politically.
Again, FWIW.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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