#32875
06/20/2001 9:58 AM
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It occurs tomorrow, folks, and for most of us (and y'all Antipodeans' ancestors) it's the summer solstice. Do any of y'all observe the date? If so, in what way? And could the Celt scholars among us treat us to a brief history of the Druid observance (I know ICLIU, but it's much more fun to hear what my distinguished interlocutors have to say)?
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#32876
06/20/2001 10:50 AM
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summer solsticeOfficial start of summer (21st June) and Midsummers Day is 24th June. So that gives us a one week summer! So I intend to enjoy it. I usually spend it wondering why the gods always interpret my cleaning the patio furniture as a rain dance  . Rod
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#32877
06/20/2001 10:57 AM
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old hand
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We just comment to each other that it's the longest day of the year. The sun doesn't set until slightly after 9:00 pm (a little later in Winnipeg, and later still further north). So we bask in the sunlight. And then it's all downhill from here! 
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#32878
06/20/2001 11:03 AM
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#32879
06/20/2001 11:06 AM
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I always felt the Vernal equinox doesn't get enough attention, so I boycott all the hullabaloo about summer solstice.
[yes, I'm a Pisces]
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#32880
06/20/2001 11:13 AM
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the Vernal equinox doesn't get enough attention
But Kriegführende Jugend, the Vernal Equinox is crucial in setting the day of the New Year. The new moon before the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox. How much more attention could you ask for?
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#32881
06/20/2001 1:12 PM
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Oh, just the normal stuff – go up to the nearest Neolithic monument at midnight, bit of drinking, dancing, virgin sacrifice, stuff like that…  http://www.stonepages.com/wales/pentreifan.html
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#32882
06/20/2001 1:22 PM
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When I was a wee bairn, all the kids in my neighborhood had to stop playing and be in the house "by dark". We always loved the longest day of the year, and had great times running around until 9:00 on those nights. Of course, it wasn't more than, what, 4 minutes more playtime than the day before, but just knowing it was the longest day made it seem more special.
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#32883
06/20/2001 3:46 PM
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just knowing it was the longest day made it seem more specialIt may have been the longest day but it wasn't the latest sunset. That would have been sometime later. See http://geography.miningco.com/science/geography/library/weekly/aa061500a.htm. You can retrospectively revel in the fact that you had up to a week of evenings when you could stay out past the time you could have on the evening of the solstice, if only by a minute.
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#32884
06/20/2001 8:14 PM
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Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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It is interesting that Midsummer Day, June 24, counted as the summer solstice (in the N. Hemisphere) is the feast of St. John the Baptist, while the winter solstice is near the Feast of St. John the Evangelist (Dec. 27). Any theories as to why the feasts of the two Sts. John come at the solstices?
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#32885
06/20/2001 11:34 PM
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Interesting post, Faldage. I had no clue on the sunsets. BobYB, great question, I'd love to know if there's any connection. Meanwhile, any of y'all heard about the solstice "rolling blackout" that folks are proposing to protest energy waste? (get thee behind me, Dubya). The idea is to eschew electricity between 7 and 10 pm, local time -- starts with y'all, I guess, MaxQ. Now, if I get one more E-mail about this, I will scream. But the idea is cool. 
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#32886
06/21/2001 12:33 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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#32887
06/21/2001 4:40 AM
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This is just a guess but...
In promoting Christianity to those with Pagan faiths, early Christian missionaries would plan for a Christian celebration at the time of popular Pagan rituals. At least, this is one theory why Christmas Day falls when it does - it is half way between the 'actual' day of Christ's birth and the (at one time) largest Pagan celebration of the year. Thus over a few years, the missionaries would change the belief system of a group by promoting their God as supreme, while being careful not to be offensive to the original beliefs. With the increasing influence of the Christian lifestyle, the original Pagan celebrations were all but forgotten. And we'll ignore the odd bit of bribery, torture and persecution of non-believers along the way. Naturally, the equinoxes and solstices would have been important days in a Pagan society more attuned to nature than we are today, and hence made likely targets for the early preachers of the Christian faith.
As to why two saints called John are involved ... I have no idea. I figure both these Johns are fairly important as far as saints go, and hence would have been matched to the larger Pagan festivals.
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#32888
06/21/2001 5:20 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Mars also happens be the closest to Earth it will be all year in conjunction with the solstice, and can be seen as a bright red star in the Eastern sky just after nightfall (at least in this Hemisphere). Anyone know the astrological implications of this? A few weeks back I got an E-mail chain letter about the Rolling Blackout on Solstice Eve to protest W. Bush's energy/environmental policies...it encouraged everyone to turn-off and unplug between 7-10p.m., and to light candles as a symbol of solidarity and as a ritual way of sending some positive energy towards the cause. Love the idea!...except here at a shore resort at the height of the summer tourist season I doubt our household's dimness will obfuscate the glare of all the boardwalk amusement and hotel lights...so I guess the U.S. East Coast inaugural motion for the blackout will have to begin across the marshes and back-bays on the immediate mainland. But I encourage everyone to join in and, at least, light a candle if they can to contribute to the thought-energy.  And I never knew my birthday, Dec. 27, was the Feast Day of St. John the Evangelist! I even went to Catholic school, but I never heard of that one! I do know, however, how I always used to get gipped out of parties and gifts being so near to Christmas. Happy Solstice!...Especially for any of the Wiccan faith for whom it has extra-special meaning!
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#32889
06/21/2001 12:27 PM
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and today's solar eclipse (Africa) is the first on the June solstice since 16xx (58?). Something else for the astrologers to worry about. As for the Druids, there are as many orders in Britain as there are Palestine Liberation organisations in "Life of Brian". I don't know what the relationships are between them. The Ancient Druid Order and the Ancient Order of Druids, the Order of Bards Ovates and Druids, and the British Druid Order. They all celebrate at Stonehenge but on different days round the solstice. The solstice itself is reserved for a public gathering mainly populated with what we call "New Age Travellers". It got out of hand a while back and was banned for many years, with annual pitched battles between some of the more violent demonstrators and the police. It was restarted in 1999, and so far, so good. Just a few drug arrests this year. I have never been to the festival, but Stonehenge is one of my all time favourite historical sites, up there with the Great Wall, the Pyramids and Abu Simbel, Lascaux caves. And Maverick, a virgin in Wales? a sheep than can run faster than a Welsh Shepherd perhaps Rod
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#32890
06/21/2001 12:38 PM
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Dear Rod: With regard to Stonehenge, I have always wondered how the horizon could have been visible with the enormous trees that must have surrounded it.
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#32891
06/21/2001 12:43 PM
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Dr. Bill wonders how the horizon could have been visible with the enormous trees that must have surrounded it.
If *I were building a large conglomeration of huge stones hauled from Who knows where and propped up by Who knows what means for the explicit purpose of determining the timing of great celestial events and there were a few trees blocking the view of the horizon that I required to make these determinations, I would cut down the trees.
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#32892
06/21/2001 12:54 PM
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Bill, Stonehenge is on the top of a hill in an area with few trees. I don't know how long that part of Salisbury Plain has been like that, but I imagine they would have chopped down any close ones in line of sight, if only to keep themselves warm during the festivals. (Another complaint English Heritage have against the new age travellers is their use of any remaining scrub on their fires). A lsit of Stonehenge web links is available at http://scivis.net/pages/stonehenge.html along with some rather interesting homework assignments! Rod
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#32893
06/21/2001 12:58 PM
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Dear Faldage: I would like to see you cut down one five foot thick oak with a bronze axe. And it would mean cutting thousands of trees. The pictures of Stonehenge that I have seen do not give the impression of being on a hill high enough to make seeing horizon possible But they would not have built an edifice requiring so much labor unless they could see horizon, or all the work would have been wasted.
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#32894
06/21/2001 1:10 PM
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#32895
06/21/2001 1:15 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dr. Bill would like to see me cut down one five foot thick oak with a bronze axe.
If I can haul out those stones from wherever and put them up I *ain' gone let a few pieces of wood get in my way†. If you don't think they hauled those stones from somewhere you might be hard pressed to explain how the dang thang got there in the first place.
†Hey, maybe the UFO pilots that gave them the antigrav machines they used on the stones let them use their laser cutters, too.
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#32896
06/21/2001 1:20 PM
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Dear Max: A fairly large company got control of an old Army artillery range in southern Massachusetts, and hoped to put in either a very large housing development or an airport. The trees there were only perhaps a hundred years old, but even with chainsaws, chippers, and all sorts of gasoline powered tools and burning, they gave up and just left huge trunks lying on the ground. I doubt very much that the technologically disadvantaged early Britons could have accomplished anything by burning. The could kill trees, but it would have taken hundreds of years before the trunks would fall.
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#32897
06/21/2001 7:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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We usually just sacrifice a virgin or two and then hit the sack. No big deal really.
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#32898
06/21/2001 8:01 PM
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I understand that you cannot get into the circle of stones these days ... apparently the balance of the stones was being affected by all the tromping around and the interior area is fenced off. Anyone confirm this? I visited in 1974, and you could walk in and around the stones. Have pictures of self leaning against stone.
Sorry, no strange voices or weird happenings ... no one more disappointed than myself!
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#32899
06/21/2001 8:13 PM
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Dear wow: When you were at Stonehenge, do you remember whether or not the horizon was visible well enough to make accurate deternination of rising and setting of sun? Of course the trees today would be insignificant compared to those of four thousand years ago.
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#32900
06/21/2001 8:20 PM
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#32901
06/21/2001 8:28 PM
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I have never been to stonehenge, but i have been to carhenge-- http://www.carhenge.com/ -haven't you dreamed of going to nebraska to see big old american cars reconfigured to look like stonehenge, in the middle of an old farm field? i should make a point of telling CK-& SWMBO to check this out! and to fell a tree, you start with a small piece of hard string*-- girdle the tree-- it will kill it in year or two, and in an other 10, the wood will be dry, and easy to hack down. right down to the root. * or copper wire, or even a lenght of vine--
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#32902
06/21/2001 8:38 PM
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at Stonehenge, do you remember whether or not the horizon was visible well enough to make accurate deternination of rising and setting of sun
It was/is on a plain ... I don't recall a tree at all!
Checked some photos ... no trees to be seen.
A lot of trees can grow to a decent size in 27 years!
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#32903
06/21/2001 9:46 PM
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old hand
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FYI - James J Hill built a replica of Stonehenge in the Columbia Gorge, on the Washington side of the river - orienting it with the landscape & the heavens for the same sort of astrological magic that happens at the British original. It's a WWII memorial, as well as a regular gathering place at solstices & equinoces (is that really the plural form, or did I just make that up?). There's a decent view of it on the website, and this one doesn't warrant the delicacy with which the original is treated, so you can walk around in it all you want. http://www.maryhillmuseum.org/about.htmGreat museum too - my favorite pieces are the war-era French fashion mannequins (when raw materials were scarce, a couple of the French fashion houses did their lines in 16" scale models rather than full-size dresses, with elaborate sets to boot) and an incredible collection of chess sets...
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#32904
06/21/2001 11:55 PM
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Dear Faldage: Let's be fair. Rod's post came so close to mine that I went to next page without seeing it,until you rubbed my nose in it .(forgive figure of speech, Rod). I have senile moments, but this was not one of them.
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#32905
06/22/2001 3:59 AM
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Mars...the closest to the Earth it will be all yearI have to amend my data a bit, here. Mars is now closer to the Earth than it has ever been for the past 13 years! It is in opposition, meaning in perfect alignment with the Earth and Sun. Happy Mars watching!
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#32906
06/22/2001 8:54 AM
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I understand that you cannot get into the circle of stones (Stonehenge) these days
That is true for the normal vistor. It is a shame but I totally understand that normal wear and tear plus vandalism was causing too many problems. I believe that there are a limited number of educational visits which allow close contact, and special solstice arrangements are made for Druids and pseudo-druids.
As for the tree question, I remember seeing programs about ancient civilisations (not specifically British) having far more ingenuity at using their limited technology than we give thenm credit for. Also, some of the British landscape has been fundamentally unchanged since pre-Roman times. I know this doesn't go back to Stonehenge, but the forests, roads, field layouts, were well established by then. I am still looking for a link, book, someone who was around at the time, that can tell me whether Salisbury Plain was a scrubby moor in those days or not. Certainly the current soil depth will only support scrub with the occasional copse.
Rod
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#32907
06/22/2001 9:20 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
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old hand
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> Mars is now closer to the Earth than it has ever been for the past 13 years! It is in opposition, meaning in perfect alignment with the Earth and Sun. Happy Mars watching! Slight digression: Yesterday I saw a quiz programme where a young man was asked which popular chocolate bar shares its name with the Roman god of war and a planet. His um'd and ah'd and came up with, yep, SNICKERS!! 
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#32908
06/22/2001 9:29 AM
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#32909
06/22/2001 1:57 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Snickers! That's a good one, BY.
It strikes me that the world needs a God of Chocolate Candy Bars, and now we have one.
What other areas did the Greeks and Romans fail to anticipate? And what should their names be?
The God of roasted peanuts -- Saltier
The Goddess of dust bunnies -- Perpetualia
The Goddess of fingerprints on windows -- Smearma
.... and her sidekick, the godette of dog nose prints on windows -- Snuffle
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#32910
06/22/2001 2:14 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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In reply to:
God of Chocolate Candy Bars
I think it would more appropriately be a goddess, although we hardly need to come up with a new for chocolate, as I am sure Venus would have been enthusiastic about it.
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#32911
06/23/2001 5:57 PM
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and her sidekick, the godette of dog nose prints on windows -- Snuffle
Thanks for the chuckle, Sparteye ... and the reminder...
going off to take care of the snuffled back windows of the car.
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#32912
06/24/2001 7:19 PM
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>I understand that you cannot get into the circle of stones (Stonehenge) these days
I was visiting England with People to People in 1969 and stayed with an elderly couple for three days. They decided to take us to a shingley beach (Brighton, I think it was) and we passed within a few miles of Stonehenge. As much as my companion and I begged to go to Stonehenge instead, they refused to take us. I grew up on the white sand beaches of Lake Michigan. Imagine the depths of my disappointment! I never got back to Europe.
P.S. Anyone who put off visiting the ruins of Mexico, it is now forbidden to climb them.
P.S.S. I know of a place in Northern Lower Michigan called Stone Circle. There are three concentric circles of boulders with a fire pit in the middle. There poets, musicians, storytellers, etc are invited to share and all are welcome to listen. There are only three rules: You must know your material by heart. No satanic material. No risque material until after midnight.
Anyone interested in learning more about this, pm me.
consuelo
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#32913
06/25/2001 7:59 AM
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They decided to take us to a shingley beach (Brighton, I think it was) and we passed within a few miles of Stonehenge.
consuelo, a belated apology for the inhospitable actions of my countrymen.
But as a matter of geography, where were you staying that passed within a few miles of Stonehenge on the way to Brighton? That doesn't sound like a sensible journey unless they had some other major reason to go to Brighton.
Rod
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#32914
06/25/2001 10:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
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old hand
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Stonehenge and ther public:
A friend of mine was at a trance party around Stonehenge just a couple of years back. Apparently that was the first time they opened it to the public for years.
> That doesn't sound like a sensible journey unless they had some other major reason to go to Brighton.
Too true. I was in windy Brighton a month or two back to meet a friend. The most beautiful part of the town I saw was 'Thes Lanes', certainly not the beach. The cliffs and Beachy Head in Eastbourne on the otherhand were quite quaint and pretty.
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