Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
#3274 09/05/01 12:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
K
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
K
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
paulb says, A key part of the plot of Gilbert & Sullivan's The Pirates of Penzance rests on the [confusion of] pronunciation of, respectively, 'often' and 'orphan', which suggests that in the late 19th century both words sounded similar...

Part of that (I think?) is that the pirates speak in a lower-class accent, so that the "of" of "often" would sound like the "or" of orphan.

And part of the humor is the contrast between their earthy speech and the prissiness of their interlocutor, Major General Stanley. The humor of rough men speaking in high-falutin' language recurs throughout the libretto.


#3275 09/05/01 12:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
M
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
M
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
It's a while since I saw a production, Keiva, so forgive my hazy memories, but I thought the ongoing joke was quite the other way around: they are all noblemen living a life as pirates, yet speaking in u/c accents, aren't they? [but confused!]

I am sure you are right, whichever, that the accent is to do with class or its pretentions - "Are you orffen heuh?" can still be heard on the terraces at Glyndebourne


#3276 09/05/01 12:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
the [confusion of] pronunciation of, respectively, 'often' and 'orphan', which suggests that in the late 19th century both words sounded similar...

Part of that (I think?) is that the pirates speak in a lower-class accent, so that the "of" of "often" would sound like the "or" of orphan.

But -- one of the corners of my junk drawer memory has an item about often:

The t was added during the inkhorn days to reflect some etymological concern of the inkhornists and was not to be pronounced. Pronunciation of the t was a hypercorrection that has insinuated itself into a state of inertial correctness.


#3277 09/05/01 12:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
K
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
K
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
maverick: forgive my hazy memories, but I thought the ongoing joke was quite the other way around: they are all noblemen living a life as pirates

The "concealed noblemen" gag isn't ongoing. Only at the very end of the operetta does Ruth pull out that claim (that the pirates are actually noblemen), as a deus ex machina to save the pirates from being punished for their life of crime. Until the very end of the play you have no notion that the pirates may supposedly be, as Ruth claims, "all noblemen who have gone wrong".

The Pirate King's song, near the beginning, sets the tone that the pirates are not aristocracy: "Many a king on a first-class throne, / If he wants to call his crown his own, / Must manage somehow to get though / More dirty work than ever I do."

EDIT: Mav, forgive me - my quotes were right but my conclusion was wrong. Although the "fact" that the pirates are noblemen isn't revealed until the end, it is foreshadowed from the very start. (The play opens with a song whose first line is, "Pour, oh pour, the pirate sherry" - and what kind of a pirate would drink sherry, of all things?)


#3278 09/05/01 12:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
tsuwm Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
here's an updated link to the Maven's archives:
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000602


#3279 09/05/01 01:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
From seeing "oft" in poetry so frequently, I have tended to pronounce the "t".


#3280 09/05/01 01:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Apparently they can wear their own choice of waistcoat.

Ah, now -- do you pronounce it waist-coat or weskit or as US'ns do - vest!
Or do I understand correctly that vest is an entirely different garment to Brits ?


#3281 09/05/01 02:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
B
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
waist-coat. I believe a vest is called an undershirt in the US. At any rate it's a mainly male undergarment something like a singlet or T-shirt.

Bingley


Bingley
#3282 09/05/01 03:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Okay, what the heck is a singlet, please?

I'm in a bit of a rush right now, so maybe I missed it,
but what on earth are "inkhorn days", or should I perhaps ask what is an inkhorn?



#3283 09/05/01 04:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Partly me running with the language again, Jackie, but inkhorn terms were words that came popping out of the rediscovery of Latin and Greek in the Renaissance. Not content to let the language proceed as it had, propelled only by winds of political conquest, some scholars dug through the mine field of the ancient languages and produced a horde of neologisms; some made it and some didn't.

cohibit - inhibit


expede - impede

Ah! Those were the days.

The words flowed from the scholars' inkhorns like manna from the cornucopia of the gods.


Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Jackie 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,652
Members9,187
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
Karin, JeffMackwood, artguitar, Jim_W, Rdbuffalo
9,187 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 156 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
wofahulicodoc 10,758
tsuwm 10,542
LukeJavan8 9,936
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2024 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5