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> Some scientists have determined that all of the pollution that the human race has made throughout history is no more than the output of a volcano.
Some scientists do not warrant that name
>And can someone tell me what harm CO2 emissions are causing? Carbon dioxide is what plants "breathe".
Perhaps the problem with the emissions is not industry, but greedy South American farmers who are tearing down the rain forest and thus lessening the number of plants that can suck in the CO2.
Jazzo, mate, I too believe Mother Earth will be able to withstand the human onslaught, what with her being around hundreds of millions years of years and all, but that does not, not even slightly justify humans polluting the earth to the current extremes.
> ...problems with this treaty, though, is that it ignores the fact that the US is more populous than almost all of the other nations
Na-uh cap, those who participated did take into account that say, oh Andorra might not be justified as much pollution as France for example (you really think they're that stupid? [scratching head]).
> how can we be expected to fit into such strict guidelines.
Strict! This plan was a VERY small step in the right direction. It didn't consider other gases, nor water pollution etc.
Your average US'n (Pick-up-driving, beer-guzzling 'n what not) comsumes circa double the fossil fuels that a European counterpart does in any one year (and yes, Europeans, relative to the rest of the world, use a lot too). Not just that, but your over-patriotic population also uses more water and produces more rubbish on average than any other state on this tinny planet.
You have the audacity to accuse South-American farmers living on the breadline of crimes against our earth!!! Step down from your ivory-tower, pull the wool from in front of your eyes, and foremost stop swallowing that insidious propaganda and half-truths that Uncle Sam feeds you and the millions of bandwagon consumers and blind partisans!
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what harm CO2 emissions are causing? ...tearing down the rain forest and thus lessening the number of plants that can suck in the CO2.
A number of points. The Earth is subject to all sorts of climate cycles which it is well beyond our capacity to control. Within these cycles climatologists have discovered many rapid upward swings of temperature in the past associated with rapid increase in CO2 levels, followed by slower decreases. Something flips the system to release the locked in CO2. The current levels of CO2 are historically high and are rising which (if the past is anything to go by) will raise temperatures globally. While some areas may benefit for a while, most ecosystems will be put under extreme strain (=drought, storms, flooding, starvation)
Most climatologists are surprised that the measured CO2 is lower than the amount predicted by the amount being pumped out by humans. Like cosmologists looking for dark matter, climatologists have been looking for the hidden sinks. Until they understand where these sinks are and how stable they are, the models are not complete. Last night a program on TV stated that a series of measurements have discovered that the Amazon is not CO2 neutral as had been thought (i.e. CO2 from decaying trees = CO2 locked in new growth) but was still sucking it in. But in rain free years it is a CO2 source. All it needs is a few more degrees and it will become a permanent source with fires releasing most of what is already locked in. This will provide a CO2 surge and global temperatures would soar (their prediction - another 20 degrees C from 2050 to 2100). There are other CO2 sinks such as the oceans which might also flip and add to the problem.
Yes it would be great if the "greedy peasants" would stop tearing the rain forest down, that would buy us another 2 years maybe, but it needs a lot more effort by everyone to make a real difference. [/rant]
Rod
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greedy peasants
And I think you will find that US based multinationals are implicated in much of the rapacious logging that goes on in S America, as well as having directly beneficial interests in the raising of beef for all your McDonalds beastburgers... Tear down a tree, put up a farting cow (sorry Joni)
/rant (tho only temp)
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Tear down a tree, put up a farting cow (sorry Joni)
One of the big problems of the whole global warming discussion is the abundance of verbal bovine excrement. An example is the idiocy of government grants to devise ways to reduce the amount of cow flatus. The grain cows eat would be converted to CO2 and methane even if the cows did not eat it.
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Rock on, by, rodward and maverick.
A few points, and I'll try to keep my ranting under control, as I feel I've been posting a lot recently on things that are only vaguely word-related.
As to greedy South American farmers: does wanting to eat make one greedy? These folks are not sitting back on the verandas of their great haciendas and enjoying seeing the great towers of new-cut hardwoods stack up for shipment abroad - for the most part, they're clearing a couple of acres and planting the crops they plan to eat. In general, they've no other option, and there's a lot of them.
On carbon sinks: one of the most likely explanations for the lower-than-expected presence of carbon in the atmosphere is that the world's oceans are absorbing a lot of the CO2 we generate. What no one knows is how much they can absorb, and what happens when they reach that limit: do they gradually absorb less and less, do they just abruptly stop absorbing it, or do they reach a point of super-saturation and just start spilling carbon back into the atmosphere? In either of the latter 2 cases, we're in big trouble fast.
I agree with belligerentyouth, the earth will withstand whatever we can do to it. So, we won't kill the planet - just ourselves. I've got a baby due tomorrow, and I can't live with that.
[/eco-rant]
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...over-patriotic population also uses more water and produces more rubbish on average...
... especially the rubbish part (it makes me sick thinking about it)... except for the over-patriotic part... too much apathy (as voter turn-out *may suggest).
...Uncle Sam feeds you... I don't know any Uncle Sam.
...millions of bandwagon consumers and blind partisans... These people I know... and because the "problem" is worse here, we need words of encouragement from those that know better.
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> we need words of encouragement Point taken Musick. I recently spoke to lady who has put years into the Kyoto project, and she, needless to say, was very disheartened. She feels if this first important agreement completely caves in then there will not be much point in her working on. Sadly, it seems things will have to get far worse before they can get better. ...I'm always good for a bit of encouragement, eh ;-) I've heard that the Bush administration has copped a fair amount of criticism domestically concerning this issue. Can't they start some Senate veto, or a petition or something to stop them (I'm a real expert on politics  )???.
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Unfortunately... just as (in another thread) not voting is ignored, so is changing your "mind" (and I use that term losely) on issues within months of the election (because he's getting too much flak from the people that didn't elect him... a majority of people here  ). Appropriated even less respect (from me) is the way our media "played down" the importance of the sentiments that Europeans brought to him (on a recent visit), yet when it comes to virtually everything else "a good capitalist" should pay attention to, we live in a global atmosphere. If this countries' laws would be adjusted to reflect the now, and in doing so take the original words "by the people for the people" a bit more serious, there would be more referendi(sp?) and less bs masked within the law coming from the elected.
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And the latest feather in Dubya's cap, Vladimir Putin has stated that if Bush goes ahead to build his National Missile Defense system (which, by most accounts, will not work), then Russia will have no choice but to upgrade its nuclear arsenal to multiple-warhead delivery systems.
I sure have missed the nuclear arms race, and I'm thrilled to think it could come back just because W wants to implement an idea that was simply the ideé fixe of an aging actor in the early 80's. Who needs rogue nations? The big kids are getting out their old toys again.
AnnaS, if I may...HARRUMPH.
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Not to alarm you (ha) it's already there. Why do you think the war in Bosnia stopped (don't answer that question, please). They are just feeling guilty about not telling everyone and are finally realizing the weight of the "capitol gains" to be had from such a technological victory. So much for humanity.
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