#31640
06/17/2001 10:43 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Max:
It is all too true that fanatic housepainters can push nationalism and patriotism to holocaustic extremes.
But before the world can be run without a healthy degree of nationalism and patriotism, there must be a very great improvement in the decency of the mass of men. .
|
|
|
#31641
06/17/2001 10:58 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
|
|
|
#31642
06/17/2001 11:20 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 387
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 387 |
Hmmmm.... get rid of world war 2 , probably several others, because of a different last name, besides the fact of several people not existing anymore. The only person here I'm certain would exist would be wwh.
|
|
|
#31643
06/17/2001 11:56 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Max: And remember Tojo had plans for your area that were defeated only by patriotism he doubted existed in the English speaking world. Without that patriotism, you might be speaking Japanese
P.S. A couple hours later. I just thought of a dandy anti-patriotism quote you forgot. I don't remember who said it, or whom it was aimed at. "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.".
|
|
|
#31644
06/18/2001 4:51 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
It's from Dr. Johnson, as quoted in Boswell's life: Patriotism having become one of our topicks, Johnson suddenly
uttered, in a strong determined tone, an apophthegm, at which many
will start: 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.' But
let it be considered, that he did not mean a real and generous love
of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all
ages and countries, have made a cloak for self-interest.
http://www.concordance.com/cgi-bin/letsr.pl Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
#31645
06/18/2001 7:03 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618 |
Indeed Australia does compel its (possessive apostrophe ie it's = YART?) citizens to vote. However, there is nothing to prevent the casting of a donkey vote. There is a slowly increasing push for this course of action, but it is still frowned upon by the majority. The compulsory voter turn-out merely ensures that all citizens are exercising their right to vote, or not to vote. The prevailing attitude in society is what really compels voting.
2c well spent
|
|
|
#31646
06/18/2001 9:38 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
, low voter turnout and apathy should be viewed as an indictment on the political process
The recent low turnout in the UK election (58% - lowest since 1918)has seen some discussion on the point. Though the process has some bearing on the matter, it is the politicians themselves who should take most of the blame. I encourage everyone to vote (or at least get counted in the turn out) but I want there to be a "None of the Above" box on the voting form, and certainly if there were any element of compulsion. Do any of your electoral systems have such a box?
Rod
|
|
|
#31647
06/18/2001 11:36 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
Do any of your electoral systems have such a box?
I think you can somehow officially decline your ballot here, to show that you do not support any candidate, but that may be hearsay. I tried looking stuff up on the Elections Canada website and got nothing, so far.
|
|
|
#31648
06/18/2001 11:48 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
an indictment on the political process
Indeed. I am also entirely with you, Max, in your main points - but I do have some political views. I have been denied the chance of realistic participation in our so-called democracy throughout my adult life, however, since my views do not happen to fit the pigeonholes of the main political parties which exhert such a complete stranglehold on modern Western polities. In these circumstances I cannot partipipate in the vote for the general will, though I have clear views of what that might be. How Rousseau must be laughing!
|
|
|
#31649
06/18/2001 3:40 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
As far as the -ism tiff goes... Commercialism, as it is (the current -ism leader) capitalisms' inherent vice, will virtually strip the truth out from under all the other -isms, and will be overtly viewed as doing so from all the other "perspectisms". I'm with you Brandon. The potential/reality of cloaked words is "all over us like a wet noodle". WON - Voting, however, is something that I always do, as I "love" this country (at least a large part of it), and taking the time to make my vote as much aligned with my views as possible is a small price to pay... I like having the choice more than I'm disgusted about picking the lesser of two evils. Since none-of-the-above  decided to approach the issue directly, I propose that a vote of none-of-the-above hold a value equal to a vote for a candidate, and that if the vote count for none-of-the-above is larger than the most vote getting candidate, then we start over... and the looser candidates are out. (We may have been trying to find a president here for the last 9 years)  . Max - If this "not vote" value was in place, could I save you from your political 'hara-kiri'? Where's IP when you need him.  Mav - Change the process!!!
|
|
|
#31650
06/18/2001 3:50 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Change the process!!!CATCH 22: TO CHANGE THE PROCESS, FIRST WIN AN ELECTION...
|
|
|
#31651
06/18/2001 4:46 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
Someone help me out here...
Mav - I believe the kind of change is a 'legal' one (here in the US) not a 'referendum' one (aside from the time it would take to vote in representatives who would vote for such a change in the wording of the laws).
|
|
|
#31652
06/18/2001 5:44 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218 |
Didn't Thomas Jefferson believe that a periodic revolution was the best thing to shake things up a bit? This might have been expressed before 1793's French events, though.
Brandon
|
|
|
#31653
06/18/2001 6:33 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
"None of the Above" box on the voting form ... Do any of your electoral systems have such a box?
Not in US, BUT : you can show your disagreement by simply casting your ballot without ticking the box (or whatever your particular county does. St. Chad, save us!)
|
|
|
#31654
06/18/2001 7:41 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 427
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 427 |
In the elections for Student Union officials at University College London the ballot paper has boxes for each of the candidates and an extra box for "RON". If you vote for RON, you vote to ReOpen Nominations, and if there were a majority of votes for RON, the whole process would have to start again... It may be only student politics, but this is the closest thing I have ever seen to a "None of the Above" option... Marianna
|
|
|
#31655
06/18/2001 8:17 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
an extra box for "RON"
Aha! That's how we ended up with Reagan! I've been looking for years for some explanation other than that we actually chose him on purpose.
|
|
|
#31656
06/19/2001 7:47 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
you can show your disagreement by simply casting your ballot without ticking the box
The "None of the above" option has to be clearly distinguishable from "didn't operate the mechanism properly". There is a separate "spoiled ballot paper" count in UK elections, but this covers everything from obscene graffiti to a blind person missing the form. In elections with "write in" options, I suppose one can already specify "none of the above". At university, we had write in votes for student council elections. It was a tradition to vote for King Farouk (don't ask me why), who was quite often duly elected and then disqualified, forcing a new election.
Rod
|
|
|
#31657
06/19/2001 9:14 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618 |
At the University of Adelaide (Australia) student union, there is a "No Candidate" option for all positions, bar the President I think. If this option takes the majority of votes then the position remains vacant for that term. I don't think it has happened for any important singular positions, but committees have been left one or two members short through the (ab)use of this system.
|
|
|
#31658
06/19/2001 9:18 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618 |
|
|
|
#31659
06/19/2001 6:03 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
and there is the "write in" option-- the cartoon character "Pogo" garned votes in his run for us president back in the '70's and Pat Paulson-- a comedian also ran-- as a comedy routine-- and people wrote him in. As i recall, Pat paulson would have been disqualified-- he was not a natural born citizen.. but pogo was a georgia 'possum, so i guess he could have won. (in the future will children conceived in-vitro, and carried and delivered via surrage mothers be barred from being president?)
|
|
|
#31660
06/19/2001 10:42 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
|
|
|
#31661
06/20/2001 12:46 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
none-of-the-above I love your none-of-the-above theory/approach to elections, musick. Especially the provision whereby, if none-of-the-above wins, the looser candidates are out! Maybe it would force the candidates to actually show some substance to impress the electorate instead of just the usual smoke-and-mirrors! But the Catch-22 with this is that you'd have to write your Senators and Congressmen and women, elected career politicians, to get the changes done. 
And speaking of smoke-and-mirrors, Hyla...we all know that RON Reagan got elected because it was "Mourning in America!"
|
|
|
#31662
08/21/2001 1:43 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
This month's new issue of Vanity Fair has a startling story entitled The Meaning of Timothy McVeigh by Gore Vidal which should be very disturbing to folks who hover on all sides of the political (or apolitical) spectrum. I have to say my jaw hung agape at many of the allegations published by an author of Vidal's reputation and stature. I strongly recommend it to anyone who cares about the erosion of our Constitutional rights. I must say, that now, I really don't know what to think about this USn "gov't" of ours, anymore. The article is titled The Meaning of Timothy McVeigh. Here's the liner and URL for the page (although I'm not sure it's available to read online...at least, I couldn't find a way into it): Most people think they know the full story of Timothy McVeigh's crime and punishment. But Gore Vidal marshals a powerful, unsettling case for a pattern of government concealment and manipulation. Was the Oklahoma City tragedy used to pass anti-terrorism laws that further weaken the Bill of Rights? http://www.subscriberdirect.com/vf/0109/toc.cfmI decided not to start a new McVeigh thread since the original was not too long, and fairly recent.
|
|
|
#31663
08/23/2001 2:54 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 157
member
|
|
member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 157 |
will in-vitro kids be barred from presidency?
I wouldn't think so, Of Troy. Not if they were BORN in the US.
|
|
|
|
|
