#30022
05/23/2001 7:50 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
While checking out a website today, I learned another ugly yet practical neologism - informatics. Once I read the definition given in an online medical dictionary, I was forced to concede that this is another one of those ungraceful coinages that fill an important niche, like compactified. What interested me was that www.dictionary.com said that the word was chiefly Brit I saw the word on a British website, and on running the word past my spell-checkers, it was accepted without a second glance by the British and Australian spell-checkers installed, but balked at by the American English spell-checker. I mention this by way of a defence against any who say that only Americans are capable of coming up with with truly ugly neologisms. I'm not saying that informatics is up there with prioritise, but it is certainly giving compactified a run for its money. Whoever said that Truth is Beauty had obviously never had to read late 20th/early 21st Century scientific English. 
|
|
|
#30023
05/23/2001 10:11 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Max, While I hate ugly, unnecessary neologisms as much as the next guy, this informatrix is under the impression that informatics is actually® a loan word - from the French, I think. It does fill a niche, if you want single word for computer science. It's also the word for such in Portuguese, and I'd wager it's used in other Latinate languages, as well. This is one case where they managed to lend us a word, in lieu of vice-versa  .
|
|
|
#30024
05/23/2001 10:23 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
While I hate ugly, unnecessary neologisms as much as the next guy, this informatrix is under the impression that informatics is actually® a loan word - from the French, I think.
Mercy buckets, StrophicAnna.
|
|
|
#30025
05/23/2001 10:28 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
I think you're right Anna. In German, computing also carries the title Informatik. In English we just can't seem to decide what we want to call it. Take your pick:
Computer Science
Information Technology (what a joke)
Information Science
Informatics
In any case, I'm not particularly partial to any of these terms, but I'd be happy if a majority would decide on one!
|
|
|
#30026
05/23/2001 10:59 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
The bruising young chappie believes that: Computer Science
Information Technology (what a joke)
Information Science
Informaticsare synonyms. Wrong, sorry. They're technical terms, and all have distinct and quite distinctly different purposes. YCLIU. 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#30027
05/23/2001 11:18 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
> are synonyms.
Did I say that?
> ...all have distinct and quite distinctly different purposes
I hit a nerve, huh. Let me just say, that it seems a lot of people are not very happy with these designations, resulting in coinages left, right and centre.
I found this info at dictionary.com:
information science -
The science that is concerned with the gathering, manipulation, classification, storage, and retrieval of recorded knowledge.
information technology -
<business, jargon> (IT) Applied computer systems - both hardware and software, and often including networking and telecommunications, usually in the context of a business or other enterprise. Often the name of the part of an enterprise that deals with all things electronic.
The term "computer science" is usually reserved for the more theoretical, academic aspects of computing, while the vaguer terms "information systems" (IS) or "information services" may include more of the human activities and non-computerised business processes like knowledge management. Others say that IT includes computer science.
Informatics -
Information science.
computer science -
the branch of engineering science that studies (with the aid of computers) computable processes and structures
|
|
|
#30028
05/23/2001 11:54 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315 |
The department where I work is named
Dipartimento di Matematica ed Informatica.
The most conservative among the (old) professors didn't like to add "Informatica", since they felt it was like to betray pure Mathematics just to be cool - and to obtain more easily money!
|
|
|
#30029
05/23/2001 12:02 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Our favorite junior Pooh-Bah complains about truly ugly neologisms citing informatics as an example. He goes on to say that he's not saying that informatics is up there with prioritise...
Are you saying that prioritise is uglier than informatics? No, no, no! Informatics has all sharp edges and ugly angles to it; pritoritise is all soft with rounded edges and cleanly flowing lines. Even if you do spell it funny.
|
|
|
#30030
05/23/2001 12:28 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
> prioritise
I myself, personally, don't think it's that ugly, but its meaning is certainly not very clear without sufficient context.
|
|
|
#30031
05/23/2001 3:57 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
meaning [of prioritise] is certainly not very clear without sufficient context
I don't have a problem with either the meaning, or sound, or usage of either "prioritise" or "informatics".
"Prioritise" means [to me] to allocate a priority to an item/task/etc. relative to others, similar to "categorise".
Rod
|
|
|
#30032
05/23/2001 9:24 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 387
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 387 |
Prioritise is worse than informatics, in my opinion.
jimthedog
|
|
|
#30033
05/23/2001 9:42 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
Prioritise is worse than informatics, in my opinion.And an opinion of rare taste and discernment it is. 
|
|
|
#30034
05/23/2001 9:48 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 387
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 387 |
This is one case where they managed to lend us a word, in lieu of vice-versa .
Didn't we borrow quite a bit when the French came over and ruled Britain for a bit at the beginning of the millennium?
jimthedog
|
|
|
#30035
05/23/2001 9:58 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
jimdog asks: Didn't we borrow quite a bit when the French came over and ruled Britain for a bit at the beginning of the millennium?
Yeahbut, what have they done for us lately?
|
|
|
#30036
05/23/2001 10:55 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
Yeahbut, what have they done for us lately?
Well, for you USns, they did take Jerry Lewis off your hands.
|
|
|
#30037
05/23/2001 11:18 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
MaxQ sez: they did take Jerry Lewis off your hands
Good point Max!
|
|
|
#30038
05/24/2001 9:05 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Informatics is NOT a synonym for information science. In foreign languages (e.g. Emanuela's Italian), it conveys a more general idea of "computing", but here it means "the use of computing to organise information", and is used in relation to particular areas, e.g. libraries, medical science, art, etc., where special processes are used to meet the needs of the users in that area.
There may be arguments over their usage, but not within the industry.
We dealt with technical terms in another ("compactified") thread. Arguing over them has no point, they exist and they're in use. Get over it.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#30039
05/24/2001 11:27 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
The Gooseberry Duke (Chinese) tells us, regarding technical terms: Arguing over them has no point, they exist and they're in use. Get over it.
Amen, brother!
|
|
|
#30040
05/24/2001 12:36 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
We dealt with technical terms in another ("compactified") thread. Arguing over them has no point, they exist and they're in use. Get over it.
Agreed - but acceptance of usage doesn't mean that we have to like it. And saying that you don't like it does make you feel better. As MaxQ kindly said to me IAT, "Tetch away ..."
|
|
|
#30041
05/24/2001 4:24 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
We dealt with technical terms in another ("compactified") thread. Arguing over them has no point, they exist and they're in use. Get over it.Then, what are you guys doing here? Yet nobody dealt *much for that BS tech word 'functionality'...  (CK, I'm sure you'll finish varnishing your cupboards before you leave  ) ...acceptance of usage doesn't mean that we have to like it. And saying that you don't like it does make you feel better...Oh, now I know why you're here! 
|
|
|
#30042
05/24/2001 4:43 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Another related point: is it realistic to talk about 'information' at all in computing terms? It often seems to me that it is only signalling - like, say, the electronic equivalent of waving semaphore flags. Nothing becomes genuine information until the human brain deciphers the signal.
|
|
|
#30043
05/24/2001 5:21 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
WHY do I want to read informatix as infomatrix?
Is there such a word as infomatrix?
There should be!
Infomatrix : I like it.
Sounds like something the average dunce (like me) can use without too much difficulty!
|
|
|
#30044
05/24/2001 5:31 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
wow wonders: WHY do I want to read informatix as infomatrix?
Well, AnnaS *did refer to herself as an informatrix, at least in this informator's admittedly spotty memory.
|
|
|
#30045
05/24/2001 6:21 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 163
member
|
|
member
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 163 |
“Informática” is the word used in Spain when referring to Information Sciences or any computer-related matter. We call computers “ordenadores” both words have been borrowed from the French.
In South America, however, the equivalent words are “computación” and “computador” clearly borrowed from USA.
Apart of being more familiarized with “informática” it seems to me as more precise than “computación” which could means any kind of calculation with or without information processing involved.
|
|
|
#30046
05/25/2001 8:20 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
> it seems to me as more precise than “computación” which could means any kind of calculation with or without information processing involved.
deciding what deserves the title 'information' could get sticky ....
> Nothing becomes genuine information until the human brain deciphers the signal.
You dare to speculate that the term was ill-concieved from the start, Mav? I think perhaps they'll go along with this word until the next fad brings more range.
stop reading here, C.K.
----------------------
Smug Whiffet definition:
Informatics is a widely used industry term, that no one really ever thought through, but, is one which everyone pretends to understand [see the 'Just don't ask' Syndrome], besides it sounds kinda funky and fresh.
|
|
|
#30047
05/25/2001 8:14 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
This isn't computer-ese, but could someone please explain this to me anyway? CK?
"The BIG MAC INDEX
The Economist's Big Mac index seeks to make exchange-rate theory more digestible. It is arguably the world's most accurate financial indicator to be based on a fast-food item. For Burgernomics and side-orders click here. "
Burgernomics???
|
|
|
#30048
05/25/2001 10:10 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Jackie,
The Economist has been publishing this quarterly (?) index for the past 20 (??) years. It's your basic down-to-the-bones cost-of-living (price of cheese, price of beef, price of bread) index. Lots of folks swear by it, but I think it has some flaws.... Still, it ain't bad for a synopsis kind of thang.
|
|
|
#30049
05/25/2001 11:11 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
It's your basic down-to-the-bones cost-of-living (price of cheese, price of beef, price of bread) index. Lots of folks swear by it, but I think it has some flaws.... Still, it ain't bad for a synopsis kind of thang.
Can you tell me if I understand the basic premise correctly, Anna? The most recent publication of the index was commented on in my local rag, and the story went thusly: A Big Mac should, theoretically, cost the same in US dollars everywhere. If A Big Mac costs less in greenbacks than in the States, that currency is undervalued. If it costs more, it is overvalued. By that reckoning, apparently, the two most undervalued currencies in the developed world are the AUD and the NZD, both undervalued by between 40 and 43%. A Big Mac here costs the equivalent of around $1.51 US. In Switzerland, apparently, it costs around $5 US, making the SFR the most overvalued currency in the Big Mac Index. The authors of the index do say that is intended largely as a lighthearted way of conveying basic trends, and ought not be viewed as Gospel.
|
|
|
#30050
05/26/2001 4:03 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
I hadn't paid much heed to this thread, but since I'm posting like a Mad Thing tonight, I thought I would give the ol' OED a looksee; imagine my surprise to find that informatics has been around since 1967 and Russian is given as the etymological source!
[tr. Russ. informátika (A. I. Mikhailov et al. 1966, in Nauchno-tekhnicheskaya Informatsiya XII. 35), f. information: see -ics.]
(See quot. 1967.) Cf. information science (information 8). Hence infor"matical a., informa"tician.
1967 FID News Bull. XVII. 73/2 Informatics is the discipline of science which investigates the structure and properties (not specific content) of scientific information, as well as the regularities of scientific information activity, its theory, history, methodology and organization. 1970 Times 2 Sept. 9 It was agreed+that an introduction to Informatics should form an integral part of general education. 1972 Jrnl. Librarianship IV. 177 The name Informatics satisfies several criteria for the designation of a new discipline. Ibid., Other terms can be derived from it, such as Informatician for a person who is engaged in activities in this field+and the adjective informatical, to describe the attributes of the field. 1973 Times Lit. Suppl. 28 Sept. 1133/1 The problem falls into two parts: the preparation of decisions, which is a matter of informatics, and the making of the decisions themselves, which is a matter of ‘politics’.
(sometimes I wonder about the folks who dig out these citations -- don't they have lives?)
|
|
|
#30051
05/26/2001 4:38 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
Since the website where I first saw the word belnogs to one of our own, I will offer the definition provided by an online medical dictionary, appropriate because of the medical context in which it is used at the website in question.Hi, Jo
"The study of the application of computer and statistical techniques to the management of information. In genome projects, informatics includes the development ofmethods to search databases quickly, to analyse DNA sequence information, and to predict proteinsequence and structure fromDNA sequence data."
|
|
|
#30052
05/26/2001 5:54 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Burgermatics is a standing in-joke amongst economists. The funny thing about The Economist's use of the Big Mac index is that it really does reduce the cost of things to terms which almost anybody who can walk and talk at the same time can understand!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#30053
05/26/2001 6:13 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
wow wonders: WHY do I want to read informatix as infomatrix?
Well, AnnaS *did refer to herself as an informatrix, at least in this informator's admittedly spotty memory.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I thought AnnS would pronounce it Inform-a-trix
whereas I mean it as Info-matrix.
|
|
|
#30054
05/26/2001 8:41 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 328
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 328 |
the website where I first saw the word belnogs to one of our own
I know this was just a typo, Max, but I rather like it. Do you think these strange belnogs are related to balrogs?
The thought of which reminds me that I can hardly wait until December for The Fellowship of the Ring to come out...
|
|
|
#30055
05/26/2001 9:04 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 46
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 46 |
belnogs
Perhaps Max was thinking of the drink traditionally consumed around the scheduled release date. I share your eagerness, Rapunzel, December can't come soon enough.
|
|
|
#30056
05/27/2001 4:32 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
I saw a sneak part-preview. Nyah, nyah! But I didn't see enough to form a firm opinion. Although I think it's going to be okay. The problem is that I (as I assume all of us do) have an mind's-eye view of the characters, and Jackson's ain't the same as mine. I also know one of the actors who got a part as one of the Elven lords (although I haven't seen him for months. He may be visiting Nemo). Plus there are dunnamany people around Wellington who had parts as extras. [sneaks-off-thinking-"It-ain't- what-you-know,-ha-ha!" -e]
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#30057
05/27/2001 4:57 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 46
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 46 |
In reply to:
The problem is that I (as I assume all of us do) have an mind's-eye view of the characters, and Jackson's ain't the same as mine.
I saw an interview with your bearded compatriot(?) in which, once I could understand his accent, he mentioned that very point. He said that since everyone would have their own mental image of the story, it would be the kiss of death for him to attempt to form some sort of amalgam of various views. He felt that the best thing, in fact he said the only thing, he could do was produce a trilogy of films consistent with his own internal vision, and hope that at least some others liked it. I think that it's not a bad philosophy for tackling such a task.
|
|
|
#30058
05/27/2001 10:07 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
I saw an interview with your bearded compatriot(?)He is. in which, once I could understand his accent,Sorry, should we all speak American instead of English? he mentioned that very point. He said that since everyone would have their own mental image of the story, it would be the kiss of death for him to attempt to form some sort of amalgam of various views.Whose would he take note of? How many LOTR fans are there? That's how many views he would have to amalgamate! He felt that the best thing, in fact he said the only thing, he could do was produce a trilogy of films consistent with his own internal vision, and hope that at least some others liked it.He's expressed that view many times. Everyone agrees with the philosophy, but, as he fears, that may not make the final result more palatable to some. I think that it's not a bad philosophy for tackling such a task.But it does bring us back to the fundamental question that was being asked at the start of it all - should it have been done at all? And I don't know if I can answer that at this point. As I said, I didn't see enough to be able to actually form an opinion which may be just as well. For me success will depend on the flow of the story, the scenes included and excluded, the emphasis (Hollywoodisation), the direction and the characterisations. The casting of the part of Gandalf was, for me, a mistake. The person who SHOULD have played it given my internalisation of Gandalf was the original Dr Who. Which is not a slur on the actor at all, especially since the actor who played Dr Who is now deceased. I actually don't have a clear mind-picture of Frodo, so that won't matter. Sam Gamgee does. So do Merry and Pippin and Aragorn. Galadriel and Celeborn don't matter. Smeagol does. But that, too, will be different for everyone! So I guess we'll just have to wait and see ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#30059
05/27/2001 10:30 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 46
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 46 |
in which, once I could understand his accent,
Sorry, should we all speak American instead of English? Goodness me, no! What makes you think that we speak with an American accent here on Tol Eressëa? As to the rest of your comment, I tend to agree. I am eager to see the movie, but am already expecting to be disappointed if I'm lucky, and to be disgusted and angry, with the latter seeming more likely.
|
|
|
#30060
05/28/2001 12:38 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
here on Tol Eressëa?Hi Max
|
|
|
#30061
05/28/2001 1:38 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 46
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 46 |
In reply to:
here on Tol Eressëa?
Hi Max
Excuse me?
|
|
|
|
|
