#28801
05/10/2001 1:55 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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I guess most here know this one. Does its meaning stem from some American colonial times? It must be more rare than I thought as I did find any information.
As far as I know it essentially means to cull, or select the good/useful parts from the whole.
In German there's the self-explanatory 'die Spreu vom Weizen trennen' (to separate the wheat from the chaff), but the idiom isn't as clear cut in English. Are we separating the useful/good English from the unwanted Dutch here?.
I'd be interested to learn other foreign equivalents too :-)
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#28802
05/10/2001 1:58 PM
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I've never heard the phrase, but it's a useful (and colorful) one. My shot-in-the-dark guess is it has something to do with New Amsterdam's change to New York - from Dutch to English control.
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#28803
05/10/2001 2:02 PM
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Separate the English from the Dutch
This is a completely new one to me, B.Y., but we are already separated from the Dutch by the North Sea (not exactly where the English Channel -it IS ours - ends and North Sea begins).
New info: The only google reference I can find is within the lyrics of an expletive filled rap.
Separate the:
sheep from the goats
men from the boys
Rod
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#28804
05/10/2001 2:47 PM
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I've never heard it, either....
Separate the:
sheep from the goats
men from the boys
No! As much as I wanna be one of the guys, I simply *cannot go there....
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#28805
05/10/2001 4:48 PM
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Thoreau's Journal, September 1858
... a new way of separating the chaff from the wheat.
========================================================
This is the earliest use I could take the time to find, but
the image is used several times in the Bible, though not
expressed specifically in those words that I know of.
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#28806
05/10/2001 4:53 PM
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Separate the English from the Dutch
Two hereditary monarchs? Both women. Never happen!
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#28807
05/10/2001 5:28 PM
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"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than
I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His
winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the
barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."......Matthew 3:11:12; Luke 3:17
[purportedly the words of John the Baptist]
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#28808
05/10/2001 8:22 PM
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I guess most here know this one. Does its meaning stem from some American colonial times? It must be more rare than I thought as I did find any information.
As far as I know it essentially means to cull, or select the good/useful parts from the whole.
In German there's the self-explanatory 'die Spreu vom Weizen trennen' (to separate the wheat from the chaff), but the idiom isn't as clear cut in English. Sorry, belligerentyouth, but "separate the English from the Dutch" doesn't appear to have made it all the way up here to Nieuw Zeeland - maybe that's because there are so many Dutch people in my part of the country!  "Separate the wheat from the chaff", on the other hand, is a very common expression, at least in my experience. Speaking of separating English from Dutch, that would appear to be getting more difficult to do. The Dutch(?) coffee house Moccona is running an ad here in which the the actor speaks Dutch while her words are translated in subtitles. The interesting thing is that many people I know who speak only English, have commented on how superfluous the subtitles are, that the entire script is quite comprehensible without them.
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#28809
05/11/2001 8:20 AM
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men from the boys
No! As much as I wanna be one of the guys, I simply *cannot go there....
Sorry AS, I think I may be missing the point here. Were you refering to the practice of separating an English "the" from a Dutch "the"? Or were you commenting on "separating the men from the boys" being a cross thread reference to love handles? Or just on how many "the"s were in the sentence?
Confused of Portsmouth
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#28810
05/11/2001 8:37 AM
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The Dutch(?) coffee house Moccona is running an ad here in which the the actor speaks Dutch while her words are translated in subtitles. The interesting thing is that many people I know who speak only English, have commented on how superfluous the subtitles are, that the entire script is quite comprehensible without them.There are two messages in that ad. You're quite right, it doesn't need subtitles. In fact, it doesn't even need the sound. We could do with the coffee. Or the stage set. Or that ridiculously small summer dress ...   Here, we sometimes say that someone who is making no sense is speaking double-dutch. Anyone else use that expression?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#28811
05/11/2001 10:07 AM
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no sense is speaking double-dutchcommon in UK too. Presumably derives from one's tongue rotating in two opposite directions simultaneously?  Other "Dutch" phrases include: (and yes I know some have appeared in odd posts over the last few months, not aware of a collection. If so - sorry) My old Dutch Dutch cap Going Dutch Dutch Courage Dutch door Dutch auction Dutch concert Rod
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#28812
05/11/2001 12:31 PM
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The only reference I have for "double dutch" is a jump rope game-- you double the rope- and have two seperate lines (commonly, you'd run the rope behind your back) Your left arm turns the rope clockwise, and your right arm, counter clockwise--
It harder to jump with two ropes, and the "jump rope song" are faster-- It used to be a real big thing in NYC-- (and it tended to follow ethnic lines-- Black girls where always the best-- followed by white girls, black boys, and almost never competing, white boys.) Back in february or so, there was a world championship double dutch contest-- and for the second year in a row, the team from japan won.
the japanese teams tend to be older (college age) and semi professional-- they are attending a sports university and can take courses in double dutch! Most of the other contestants where from US cities.. (and i think mostly east coast cities at that..)
On the main thread topic-- i have never heard "seperating the english from the dutch"--- wheat from chaff, yes.men from boys, yes.
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#28813
05/11/2001 12:42 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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<<My shot-in-the-dark guess is it has something to do with New Amsterdam's change to New York - from Dutch to English control.>>
I second that. Probably from just before the conquest.
Is there a parallel expression: "separate the flatlanders from the green mountain boys"?
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#28814
05/11/2001 12:59 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144
member
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I've never heard of 'separating the english from the dutch' either.
Apart from anything else, in my situation it could be a rather painful experience, as I'm distinctly half and half!
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#28815
05/11/2001 1:51 PM
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"double dutch" is a jump rope game
hence my reference to rotating of the tongue. Recently I saw Cirque de Soleil with their Quidam (sp?) production. One of the acts in that consisted of incredibly complicated jump-rope ("skipping" in UK). People skipping with their own rope over multiple other ropes, all in time to music. That was great as was the rest of the show.
Rod
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#28816
05/11/2001 2:14 PM
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jump-rope ("skipping" in UK). Growing up in NorthEast we said we were "playing jump rope" for the game. Skipping rope was the action itself. Skipping also means the individual act of sort of bouncing along on the toes... a kind of exaggerated happy walk ... There is a New Englander I saw on a local TV show who skips for his daily "walk" and promotes it actively as a great form of excercise, more fun than boring old strolling and jogging. It's hard to skip without smiling! Now that's a recommendation. Has anyone else noticed how grim runners look?  And do any of those walkers who have "Walkmen" radios plugged in their ears EVER listen to anything happy? They all look rather glum. Only semi-animated walkers/runners are those accompanied by a friend! Thoughts? wow
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#28817
05/11/2001 2:29 PM
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And all the jump rope songs? Strawberry shortcake! and so many others.. they started out slowly and each round became faster and faster, and the "turners" kept rhythm to the song?
and skip walking? every seventh step was a skip-- so a neat line of girls in their uniforms, (ours where blue jumpers (american jumpers) a sleeveless navy wool serge, with a fitted top, and 6 gore skirt, worn with a white peter pan blouse, and a blue bow tie) walking down the street-- only ever seventh step we take a skip-- and giggle-- not at all the effect the nuns were hoping for!
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#28818
05/11/2001 2:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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BY, this Michiganian is unfamiliar with separating the Dutch from the English. Around here, both separating the men from the boys and the wheat from the chaff are used.
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#28819
05/11/2001 2:50 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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Skipping also means cutting class. We never call it cutting class here - I associate that with USn TV shows.
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#28820
05/11/2001 3:32 PM
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Skipping also means cutting class. We never call it cutting class here
We used "skipping" class too. Cutting class seems to have morphed into use during the 1950s - '60s.
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#28821
05/14/2001 7:15 AM
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old hand
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Well so much for that query - I'll just stick to 'separating the wheat from the chaff'
skipping school:
In North England it's to skive (off)
In Australia you'd most likely wag school or perhaps bunk off.
In the U.S. children like to cut class or just plain goof off.
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#28822
05/14/2001 7:25 AM
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BY, this Michiganian is unfamiliar with separating the Dutch from the English. Around here, both separating the men from the boys and the wheat from the chaff are used.
We also use "sorting out the sheep from the goats". Is that common anywhere else?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#28823
05/14/2001 11:16 AM
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We also use "sorting out the sheep from the goats". Is that common anywhere else?
Yes, Sweet Thing, my mother used it all the time. She also used "separate the men from the boys".
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#28824
05/14/2001 7:27 PM
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Sparteye refers to herself as this Michiganian ...
Another cherished belief dashed to the ground! I thought y'all called yourselves Michiganders? Or is that term only committed by the rest of us "Down Below"?
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#28825
05/14/2001 8:12 PM
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Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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BY, this Michiganian is unfamiliar with separating the Dutch from the English. Around here, both separating the men from the boys and the wheat from the chaff are used.
We also use "sorting out the sheep from the goats". Is that common anywhere else?
I'm not familiar with the sheep and goats thing, but how about separating a fool and his money?
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#28826
05/14/2001 8:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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AnnaS:
The term "Michiganders" was coined by Ohioans as a pejorative term, apparently around the time that Michigan and Ohio had a border war. My memory of high school history class is hazy, but I recall that the single battle was fought in a farm field, resulting in casualties of a couple of geese and some cabbage heads. The dispute was settled, with Ohio getting the strip of land, including Toledo, and Michigan getting the entire upper peninsula. Despite the term "Michiganders," it seems it was the Ohioans who got plucked.
Natives of Michigan are now variously called Michiganians and Michiganders. Neither term bothers.
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#28827
05/30/2001 2:54 PM
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and yesterday I learnt the German for double-dutch (as in gibberish):
das Kauderwelsch
but I can't find any etymology. Can anyone help please?
Thanks,
Rod
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#28828
05/31/2001 2:55 AM
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The Austrian lady at work thinks Kauderwelsch is more German than Austrian. She thinks it comes from the noise cows (Kau) make when they're chewing the cud.
Bingley
Bingley
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#28829
05/31/2001 8:47 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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The question of separating English from Dutch has puzzled me a little - I also would like to know the underlying connotations of this one. Separating Wheat from chaff is, obviously, sorting out what is useful from what is useless: sorting sheep from goats is spearating mixed groups into like groups: separating men from boys is identifying those who are able from those who are not, in a particular field of endeavour.
But what is the criterion of separation in the English/Dutch analogy?
As to skipping school - that and all of the other ezxpressions, above, except goofing off are used in UK, with the addition of regional use of "to Mooch," e.g., "I'm mooching this afternoon." - in Wales it is "mych" (I think - mav?: but I think it is probably pronounced much the same) and in Ireland "mitch".
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#28830
05/31/2001 11:01 AM
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the criterion of separation in the English/Dutch analogyI believe you'll find it stems fro the time of fierce colonial and seafaring competition: 'dutch' is synonymous in many English phrases with the bad, the ugly, and the generally undesirable. Strange how we often hate what we are most like... And yes, to mitch off school is the currency here, though from my Kent schooldays it was always skive. I'm not at all sure how mitch is spelled!
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#28831
05/31/2001 11:13 AM
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old hand
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old hand
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Here, to mooch is to borrow or ask for something, without intent of repaying - like "Can I mooch a ride off you?" or "Can I mooch a tea bag?" "You're such a mooch!" (to the person mooching). Nothing to do with skipping school!
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#28832
05/31/2001 11:56 AM
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Whereas here (or in my ideolect, not sure which) mooch means to stew around somewhat aimlessly - like 'hang out'.
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#28833
05/31/2001 12:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I'm not at all sure how mitch is spelled!
I have taken the spelling from "Under Milk Wood", where the great Mr Thomas refers to the schoolboys "playing mychims," which I understand to mean playing hookey. (Another term that is occasionally used over here, although I believe it is of USA provenance)
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#28834
05/31/2001 12:10 PM
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Ah! The same Anglo-Welsh speaker who was one of the few to set out the correct orthography of Llareggub
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#28835
05/31/2001 12:47 PM
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"Dutch readers should perhaps look away ...
In the seventeenth century, the Dutch and British were enemies. Both wanted maritime superiority for economic reasons, especially control of the sea routes from the rich spice islands of the East Indies. The two countries fought three wars.... " http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-dut1.htm
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#28836
05/31/2001 2:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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Maverickian mooching
Sounds like what was called, in my very brief career as a drill sergeant, "milling about in orderly fashion". (The command: Ready : MILL!)
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#28837
05/31/2001 3:03 PM
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Love it - but I suppose it makes as much sense as inviting overburdened pongos on parade to STAAAA-ND EASY! Apparently my usage of this term is not just an ideolect: http://www.lunaticantics.com/andyslater/beachcombing
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