#28242
05/03/2001 9:18 AM
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enthusiast
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The contraction of "I am not" is grammatically unusual in that it can only go in one direction. Whereas all other persons can do either – "she is not" becoming "she's not" or "she isn't" – "I am not" in statements has to become "I'm not", never "I amn't".
But in questions the second form of contraction is the only one possible: "is she not?" (or "is not she?" as Jane Austen could say and we no longer can) can only become "isn't she?". Here "am" is parallel: "am I not?" becomes "amn't I?".
Of course it's almost never written amn't or an't, though these both exist. It's invariably written aren't these days.
In my dialect the vowel change am -> aant is the same as the change in can -> caant, so I don't feel anything odd about it. And it makes no difference whether I spell it amn't, an't, or aren't, as it's pronounced the same.
However, do Americans, or anyone with a rhotic accent, feel this is odd? Do you actually pronounce the R in aren't in this case? So does it feel like an anomalous substitution of person? Or does the alternation am ~ aren't feel normal and unexceptionable?
(This was sparked by seeing a site that claimed that ain't was historically a pronunciation of amn't – I don't know whether this is true, and at the moment don't care.)
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#28243
05/03/2001 9:58 AM
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Interesting one, Nick. My dear old granny (from the north of England) used amn't. Funnily enough I, who was always keen to pick up her little verbal "gems", never adopted it. It just sounded wrong to me, and still does, regardless of its pedigree!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#28244
05/03/2001 10:27 AM
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Do you mean she said it in statements? She said "I aren't/aunt at home"? Or are you thinking of a particular pronunciation?
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#28245
05/03/2001 10:46 AM
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it makes no difference whether I spell it amn't, an't, or aren't, as it's pronounced the same.
Nicholas, she said, looking at him out of the corners of her eyes, are you by chance trying to put one over?
How on earth can amn't and aren't be pronounced the same?
I have never thought of using amn't, because it is so hard to say--exactly as it looks:ammmm-nnnt. An't is ant, and that's all there is to that. Aren't is arrrrrrnt. Geez!
(Though I will concede that Brit-speakers probably say aren't as aahhhhhnt. But amnt = ahnt? No way!)
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#28246
05/03/2001 11:09 AM
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Okay, I'm clarifying it, [ahnt] I?
The contraction of "am not I?" is pronounced [ahnt], that is the same as "aren't" from "are not", and "aunt" an elderly female relative.
How do we spell this [ahnt]? My point is that an't would be a reasonable way to spell it, to match can't ([cahnt], as in Immanuel), and amn't is also found in dictionaries, obviously mean to pronounced [ahnt] (the same as an't/aunt/aren't). In practice, however, the spelling aren't is chosen.
But Americans pronounce aren't = are not with an R, don't they? So do they/you also pronounce it with an R when it comes from am? Or is it just written that way faute de mieux, for lack of any other agreed spelling? Does it worry you that, in your dialect, the process of contraction adds an R?
I think what you're trying to convey by subtle signs is that you personally pronounce an R in aren't I?. Aren't you?
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#28247
05/03/2001 12:38 PM
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What Jackie is trying to tell you, in her genteel southron lady way is that, yes US'ns pronounce the R in that oh so exquisitely non-musical way that only US'ns can do. Some dialects in which the R is not pronounced, notably southern and northeast New England dialects, will elide this R and you will hear something not unlike the Received Standard British pronunciation.
Many of us are fully aware that this results in a non-grammatical use of the second person plural form of the verb to be with the first person singular pronoun be we have gotten used to it.
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#28248
05/03/2001 12:50 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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Many of us are fully aware that this results in a non-grammatical use of the second person plural form of the verb to be with the first person singular pronoun be we have gotten used to it.
Sort of. My mother often used "amn't" in a joking manner (pronounced with all the letters, since we are in Canada) and I occasionally use it in informal conversation. I got a strange look from my Turkish friend for using it the other day, though. I have mixed feelings about it. If I were to write it I would use the "proper" form which I consider to be "Aren't I?" I'll admit that even that looks awkward, though...
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#28249
05/03/2001 1:24 PM
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"am not I?" Is that even kosher? What about 'am I not'? Yes, this is a different issue. But what I am taking issue with is that the contraction "amn't" comes from something that sounds wrong, wrong, wrong! "Am not I"?? I ask you!  I think what you're trying to convey by subtle signs is that you personally pronounce an R in aren't I?. Aren't you?Ms. Subtlety, that's me! Yes, I say arrrrrrren't. But I take issue with your examples of similarities! Aunt does rhyme with can't--but I want you to understand that the correct sound is the same a-sound as in flack, not flock! Though there are some US'ns who use that sound, notably Will Smith in Men In Black, when he said, "Oh, was that your Ontie?".[poking the borax e]
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#28250
05/03/2001 1:51 PM
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Jackie protests: the correct sound is the same a-sound as in flack, not flock! Though there are some US'ns who use that sound, notably Will Smith in Men In Black, when he said, "Oh, was that your Ontie?"
I think this is regional. There are even those who go so far as to pronounce it AWNT, notably Garrison Keillor from A Prairie Home Companion (unspeakable perversion).
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#28251
05/03/2001 2:21 PM
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An ant is an insect and has nothing to do with aunt unless your Dear Aunt sits on an ant hill at a picnic!
Aunt is sort of like : Ah-nt - at least in New England!
Now, as to am'n't it is an Irish contraction of am I not and heard often there still. Sounds lovely with a soft Dublin/Kildare accent!
I use it among friends and family when feeling very Irish!
Years ago, the magazine Ireland of the Welcomes had several articles on words that came from Irish and am'n't was one of the contractions ... so I would surmise it's an Irish language contraction .... Anyone fluent?
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#28252
05/03/2001 2:37 PM
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veteran
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amn't, aunt
It is not uncommon among older people or rural people (my grandmother used it) in the US to use 'a'nt' (pronounced with the short flat 'a' to rhyme with the usual US pronunciation of can't) not only for 'are not', but also for 'am not' and 'is not'. From this, I take it that 'a'nt' is a variant pronunciation of 'ain't', which is used for all numbers, persons and genders, mostly by the under-educated (schoolmarms used to go off the wall over 'ain't') but which is becoming more and more tolerated.
'Aunt' is generally pronounced the same way, with the short, flat 'a' sound, except that there are those who insist on the deep 'a' to rhyme with Brit pronunciation of 'can't'. This is thought by most USers to be hoity-toity, except, interestingly enough, among the black population where, in the black US usage, it is regularly prounced with the deep vowel sound.
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#28253
05/03/2001 2:53 PM
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except that there are those who insist on the deep 'a' to rhyme with Brit pronunciation of 'can't'. This is thought by most USers to be hoity-toity,
Not in New England, BobY, where you hear the aunt/Brit-cawn't almost exclusively. Not hoity toity at all.
Using Ant for Aunt in NE marks you as a non-Yankee! In other words, a tourist -- or as the Tourism Industry would have us say : a "visitor."
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#28254
05/03/2001 3:28 PM
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Wow - I would concur on the New England pronunciation of "aunt" as ahnt, but do not agree on the pronunciation of "can't" in that fair corner of our land. Growing up in Boston, where they'd write "aren't I?" but say "aaahhhn't I?", I heard can't pronounced to rhyme with ant or pant, almost without exception.
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#28255
05/03/2001 3:38 PM
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New England auntsDear Wow, allow me to suggest in the most respectful manner and with all due deference to your seniority and erudition, that New England constitutes a minority of the U.S. Hence, I stand by my assertion that the great majority of USers do not pronounce 'aunt' like 'cawn't'. I realize you are in the land of the bean and the cod, where the Cabots speak only to Lodges and the Lodges speak only to God, but you have to face the statistical facts. 
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#28256
05/03/2001 3:45 PM
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journeyman
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journeyman
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In reply to:
Ain't
My recollection (alas, becoming, with the inexorable march of Time, ever less trustworthy) is that Lord Peter himself occasionally uses "ain't" though only and properly (as I remember?) in the first person singular. It follows then, if it was good enough for him and his Creators (God and Ms Sayers) then of course ......
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#28257
05/03/2001 4:11 PM
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where the Cabots speak only to Lodges and the Lodges speak only to God
"Here's to the City of Boston,
Home of the bean and the cod,
Where Lowells speak only to Cabots
And Cabots speak only to God."
but you have to face the statistical facts
Phooey!
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#28258
05/03/2001 7:30 PM
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member
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I'm with you wow! Phooey! Here I am in western Wisconsin, using the Ahnt pronunciation too because it sounds more repectful than Ant. Got nothin' to do with hoity toity!
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#28259
05/03/2001 8:38 PM
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Well, I just got here. Missed all the fun. All I can contribute is that "ahnt" is as common in Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi as is "ant." Black folks and older white folks mostly use the former. I actually® did field research on the pronunciation of this word in the SE US states (some 25 years ago), I'll see if I can dig it up. Also, you who have faster computers/connections than mine (and that would be practically everybody here) can go to: http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html and check out amn't and aunt -- though, on second thought, you *may have to buy the book or go to the library. Last time I checked, there weren't many entries on the web site.
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#28260
05/03/2001 9:11 PM
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Also late to the party, but I find this discussion fascinating; always something for me to learn from all of you! Can't say I ever heard anyone use "amn't" - unless of course I didn't realize it because of the pronunciation. I would have to agree that it just sounds wrong to me.
I weigh in with the "ant" pronunciation of "aunt," but my husband (born and raised, as I was, right here in metro Detroit) has always pronounced it "ahnt." I guess that makes it a familial rather than regional difference, since we come from very similar backgrounds.
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#28261
05/03/2001 9:50 PM
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but I want you to understand that the correct sound is the same a-sound as in flack, not flock!
Here in Zild, "Aunt" and "can't" rhyme - "ahnt" and "cahnt." Rhyming them with ant would brand one as a West Islander (shudder)!
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#28262
05/04/2001 7:03 AM
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Old Nick asked (was it only yesterday)? Do you mean she said it in statements? She said "I aren't/aunt at home"? Or are you thinking of a particular pronunciation?
What she said, from memory, was "amt". As in "I amt (am not) going to the shops today". But I don't think she used it in any other position, i.e. she wouldn't have said "I'm fey today, amt (aren't) I?"
But 40 years ago is a long time, and my memory, like most, is fickle!
Oh, and MaxQ is quite right about the usual pronounciation here. Ahnt you, Max?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#28263
05/04/2001 11:11 AM
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amn't is also found in dictionaries, obviously mean to pronounced [ahnt] (the same as an't/aunt/aren't).
My mother often used "amn't" in a joking manner (pronounced with all the letters, since we are in Canada) and I occasionally use it in informal conversation.
I have also heard (in UK) "amn't" with all the letters and have also used it myself without really knowing why I did so. I have obviously seen it written, but have never questioned why they or myself used it.
In some UK dialects you will hear the "r" pronounced in "aren't".
Rod
ta-daaaaa!
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#28264
05/04/2001 12:16 PM
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Rod's an enthusiast!
(ta-daaaaa)
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#28265
05/06/2001 10:39 AM
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<so I would surmise it's an Irish language contraction>
Wow, isn't serendipity a wonderful thing. I'd never come across 'amn't' before this thread and now I've noticed it at least twice in my current reading: Flann O'Brien's 'At Swim-two-birds' (originally published 1939).
"He sings a lot when he thinks I amn't listening."
"What's the matter, amn't I all right man?"
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#28266
05/06/2001 11:00 PM
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journeyman
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I find that in South Carolina the black people say "ahnt" but others do not....why?????? In Indiana everyone I knew said "ant"...just local preference there I guess. I have noticed that on TV the black people are more apt to speak of their "ahnt" than "ant". I have always wondered why...it is a nicer sounding word to me.
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#28267
05/07/2001 1:28 PM
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Paulb wrote : Wow, isn't serendipity a wonderful thing.
Oh, yes indeedy! You join a Board to talk about words and end up not merely enlightened but delighted to make so many new friends.
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