#27232
04/25/2001 1:40 AM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Apr 2001
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One of my favorite words for everyday usage is "defenestrate." Call me crazy (and you can believe that my friends and colleagues do), but I love to pepper my conversations with the word...it so well captures the notion of jettisoning an unworkable idea or giving the old heave-ho to an annoying coworker or impossible boss. As many of you know, "defenestrate" means to "throw something or someone out the window." My question is, can "defenestrate" be modified by the phrase "out the window," as in, "I defenestrated my cigarette butt out the window," or would such modification be egregiously redundant? A colleague of mine says that the phrase should be added for clarification purposes. I say that "defenestrate" says it all and says it well. What do you folks think?
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#27233
04/25/2001 2:28 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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A colleague of mine says that the phrase should be added for clarification purposes. I say that "defenestrate" says it all and says it well. What do you folks think?
I'm with you, to add "out the window" after defenestration would be totally unnecessary tautology.
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#27234
04/25/2001 3:43 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
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old hand
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old hand
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giving the old heave-ho to an annoying coworkerNow, if you would be so kind, please tell me how one goes about orking a cow. 
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#27235
04/25/2001 12:32 PM
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Careful, geoff, or the gutter police will defenistate you for orking (and orking a cow, no less!)  Its a wonder with so many "Windows"-- Blue screen's of death that more people don't complain about being defenestrated!
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#27236
04/25/2001 1:24 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Quirky but fun!
Everybody gotta have a few quirks or the world would be dull! dull! dull!
Uphold Anomaly!
wow
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#27237
04/25/2001 1:31 PM
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sure, defenestrating is easy... or something we'd all like to do. but I ask you: how many of you have actually® adfenestrated?
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#27238
04/25/2001 1:52 PM
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Dear J.P. Esquire: I learned the word "defenestrate" as the penalty for incest in Middle Ages of Italy. A slightly less drastic penalty might be meted out to you for throwing a cigarette butt out of the window. Perhaps it is well that many new office buildings do not have windows that can be opened.All said in jest of course.
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#27239
04/25/2001 2:40 PM
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Welcome, J.P. Esquire! Nice to have you!  Defenestrate IS a neat word! I noticed that Atomica had an option to hear it pronounced, and--it sounded exactly like Mr. Warf! (Michael Dorn) But--to defenestrate something out the window is definitely a redundancy. Perhaps your colleague could add a verbal semicolon or parentheses.  Tsuwm--Atomica also gave me several options for looking up ad--, and as a prefix, said it means to, towards, or near. So, when my "connectivity" goes down, is it correct for me to say that I want to adfenestrate my modem?
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#27240
04/25/2001 2:41 PM
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adfenestrated?
jumped in a window? (guessing since i don't find it my dictionary)-- Well i haven't jumped in a window-- but i have used window as entry-- (and doing that is a good reminder for not forgetting your keys!)
Re: Bill's comment about defenestration in Middle ages-- I first heard the word in an article about words and defenesration mentioned the .. defenestration of Prague? a political/reglious riot/"housecleaning" in 1700 something?
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#27241
04/25/2001 3:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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Adfenestration & defenestration
The best examples of these are to be found in The Miller's Tale.
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#27242
04/25/2001 3:56 PM
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addict
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Defenestration of Prague: That was how I first heard of the word. I thought it refered to the "taking out of windows", probably as a response to a Window Tax as UK had. Only later did I learn the true story.
There have actually been several defenestrations in Prague. The "First" was in about 1420 when 5 or so guys got thrown out and killed. The "Second" was in about 1620 when some Bohemian (as opposed to bohemian) nobles threw the Hapsburg Emperor's representatives out of the window of the castle in Prague (Hradcny ? may have spelt that wrong). They weren't hurt apparently but the Emperor was upset and the 30 Years War ensued (1620-1650ish).
There have been other defenestrations in Prague since then but usually on an individual basis and claimed as suicide by the authorities.
Rod
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#27243
04/25/2001 4:00 PM
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Go to almost any brick and mortar workplace and you will find plenty people orking cows.
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#27244
04/25/2001 4:05 PM
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I agree that defenestrate out the window would be redundant, but I cannot agree that it would be egregious, not with the state of the herd these days. It would be, unfortunately, only too gregious.
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#27245
04/25/2001 4:25 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Extending our realm from the ovine to the bovine, are we, Faldage?
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#27246
04/25/2001 4:45 PM
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Ain' jus cows herd, AnnaS.
Buffalo, fer example. Herd of 'em?
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#27247
04/25/2001 4:52 PM
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veteran
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Defenestration of Prague
One of the others since 1620 was that of Jan Masaryk, premier of the short-lived republic, who was officially called a suicide, but most people know better that he was got out of the way.
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#27248
04/25/2001 5:09 PM
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"Adfenestration & defenestration" in Miller's Tale
Dear Bob: wouldn't "exfenestration" be closer?
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#27249
04/25/2001 5:18 PM
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Dr. Bill asks: wouldn't "exfenestration" be closer?Naw! defenestration is perfectly fine. http://www.bartleby.com/61/8/D0050800.html
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#27250
04/25/2001 5:42 PM
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took me a while to dig this out again:
ADFENESTRATE ad finis trait verb "to sneak through a window" (Koster). Compare antonym DEFENESTRATE Two hours before dawn members of the Acción Dinámica adfenestrated themselves into the palace. Koster, The Prince, p. 32. from Pete Saussy's LOGODAEDALIAN'S Dictionary of Curious and Interesting Words
I subsequently used adfenestration as a wwftd; now as it happens, Pete is on my subscription list and he forwards the mailings to several interested parties, one of which is Mr. Koster. the following exchange of e-mails ensued (word cafefully chosen for punish quotient):
>> Pete,
>>
>> That's my word, but unless someone else has been using it, it only exists
>> as a verb.
>>
>> Best,
>> Dick Koster
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 01:23 PM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> >think "not Prague"
>> >
>> >the worthless word for the day is: adfenestration
>> >
>> >choose one:
>> > a) the arrangement, proportioning, and design of windows/doors in a =
>> building
>> > b) a throwing of a person or thing out of a window
>> > c) the (surreptitious?) act of entering through a window
>> >
>> > -tsuwm http://members.aol.com/tsuwm/
>
>Mr. Koster,
>
>well, consider your verb to have been "nouned"; I wanted to pair it up
>with defenestration. here's my lawyer's address:
>
> HiramCheep@pettifoggers.com
>
>-m.a.fischer
>
>
>p.s. - as the owner of this word, perhaps you could enlighten me as to
whether
> the "surreptitious" element is implied.
>
Mr. Fischer,
The context is as follows: Circa 1930, an ambitious fellow is invited to a
soiree at the presidential palace in the Republic of Tinieblas. He wanders
off and unlocks a window. Around 4:00 a.m. he and a bunch of resolutes he
has sharked up adfenestrate themselves into the building and expell the
incumbent.
Best,
R.M. Koster
P.S. My attorneys, Paine and Durance, eat attorneys like yours for breakfast.
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#27251
04/25/2001 6:00 PM
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unless someone else has been using it, it only exists as a verb.
Seems only fair, since defenestrate was a back-formation from defenestration.
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#27252
04/25/2001 6:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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word cafefully chosen
-> reference to cafe curtains for all those windows you're sneaking through?
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#27253
04/25/2001 6:42 PM
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"Adfenestration & defenestration" in Miller's Tale
Dear Faldage: My point was that the miller's wife and her boyfriend did not "throw" their posteriors out of the window, they "exfenestrated" them to be osculated.
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#27254
04/25/2001 7:07 PM
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>word cafefully chosen
-> reference to cafe curtains for all those windows you're sneaking through?
oops... that should have read "carafefully chosen", as from a jeroboam of california's finest.
8-)
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#27255
04/25/2001 7:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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The short version: I once escaped from a motorcycle gang by jumping out of a window at a bar.
Mem'ries .....
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#27256
04/26/2001 12:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 819
old hand
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old hand
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Go to almost any brick and mortar workplace and you will find plenty people orking cows.
Especially Orkney Island cows?
This reminds me of the hilarious story of Clancy the brick mason, but I can't find it anywhere. Do any of you people who are whizzes at looking things up know where to find it?
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#27257
04/26/2001 12:42 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 163
member
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member
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It would be redundant. In fact, it would be a pleonasm (one of my favourite words). The first time I heard the word the example given was, "surrounded on all sides."
1. Gram. and Rhet. The use of more words in a sentence than are necessary to express the meaning; redundancy of expression (either as a fault of style, or as a figure purposely used for special force or clearness); with a and pl., an instance of this, or the superfluous word or phrase itself.
1586 A. Day Eng. Secretary ii. (1625) 82 Pleonasmus, where, with words seeming superfluous, we doe increase our reasons, as thus, With these eares I heard him speake it. 1589 Puttenham Eng. Poesie iii. xxii. (Arb.) 264 The first surplusage the Greekes call Pleonasmus, I call him (too full speech) and is no great fault. 1610 Healey St. Aug. Citie of God (1620) 15 Some thinke the preposition ep¬ to be here a Pleonasme+and that rjopo| and Žp¬rjopo| is all one. 1621 Burton Anat. Mel. Democr. to Rdr. 12, I require a favourable censure of all faults omitted, harsh compositions, pleonasms of words, tautological repetitions, &c. 1681 R. Wittie Surv. Heavens 28, I take it to be a Pleonasm, a Figure frequently used in Scripture. 1741 Warburton Div. Legat. II. 556 The genius of the Hebrew tongue, which so much delights in pleonasms. 1860 Gen. P. Thompson Audi Alt. III. cxiv. 45 What the energetic pleonasm of our ancestors denominated ‘a false lie’.
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#27258
04/26/2001 12:43 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 163
member
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member
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Hey, I just noticed, I'm now a journeyperson!
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#27259
04/26/2001 4:38 AM
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Posts: 3,146
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how many of you have actually® adfenestrated?Akshully® on the odd occasion when I have mislaid my house key but not my extension ladder
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#27260
04/26/2001 4:42 AM
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I once escaped from a motorcycle gang by jumping out of a window at a bar.Aha! suidefenestration. The very thing!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#27261
04/26/2001 5:01 AM
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how many of you have actually® adfenestratedMore times than I care to remember. I must now drag this thread back to things wordy.  When I was learning German, it fascinated me that our Teuton cousins had adopted the Latin word, while English, normally so ready to larcenise Latin, had stuck with a clearly Germanic word in window. Are there any other common examples of German ditching Germanic in favour of Latin, while English preserves the Germanic? Additionally, does that last sentence make any sense?
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#27262
04/26/2001 7:33 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
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old hand
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> a clearly Germanic word in window
Certainly doesn't sound German, but I will try to find some examples of 'German ditching Germanic in favour of Latin, while English preserves the Germanic'.
What dictionary.com says about 'window':
The word window conceals a poetic image that is not at all transparent. Our word comes to us from the Scandinavian invaders and settlers of England in the early Middle Ages. Although we have no record of the exact word they gave us, it was related to Old Norse vindauga, “window,” a compound made up of vindr, “wind,” and auga, “eye,” reflecting the fact that at one time windows contained no glass. In our time we have taken window, which has been recorded in the language for almost 800 years.
On another topic:
Thanks for 'pleonasm' Rouspeteur! Do you think some use the word tautology when they actually mean this word?
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#27263
04/26/2001 11:18 AM
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tsuwm
(member)
Thu May 18 09:55:53 2000
Re: Is there a literary term for....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
in Rhetoric, I think this is called a pleonasm, the use of more words than necessary to convey an idea (not to be confused with a tautology, needless repetition of an idea :)
tsuwm
Dept. of pleonasm Dept.
Iowa City, IA
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#27264
04/26/2001 12:16 PM
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This is almost a YART!* Dunno if you're going to have any luck searching on Clancy but Hoffnung might^ work.
*Or was it a Dartre? Nope, not there either.
^ It din't
Brick layer din't work, neither. There's something out there somewhere. Gerard Hoffnung used to tell it. Try googling.
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#27265
04/26/2001 1:59 PM
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"how many of you have actually® adfenestrated"
A story in TIME towards end of WWII illustrated the dangers of adfenestration. A GI concealed from his family that he was close to discharge, intending to "surprise" them. He arrived in his home town about 2AM. He knew there was a broken latch on a rear window, and entered without difficulty. He crept up the stairs, threw open his parents' bedroom door, turned on the lights, and yelled:"Surprise!"
Was he surprised. His parents had moved.
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#27266
04/26/2001 2:36 PM
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Posts: 609
addict
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Dear Bob: wouldn't "exfenestration" be closer?
I, for one, would certainly not want to be any closer to that exfenestration.
Rod
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#27267
04/26/2001 2:57 PM
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Re: the bricklayers lament I knew this as a Hoffnung story as well, but googling provided a site http://www.snopes2.com/humor/letters/bricks.htm which has several prior instances of the story, even back to 1918. Rod
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#27268
04/26/2001 3:05 PM
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"I, for one, would certainly not want to be any closer to that exfenestration."
Rod
Dear Rod: A kiss in the dark is not always a lark. But osculum infamum cum ferrum ardentum vindicatum dulcissimum est. (makebelieve Latin)
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#27269
04/26/2001 3:17 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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> tautology: needless repetition of an idea
Goethe once said that the Koran was a glorious book of moral tautologies. A Moslem might therefore wish to omit the 'needless' in tsuwn's definition of the word.
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#27270
04/27/2001 10:12 AM
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osculum infamum cum ferrum ardentum vindicatum dulcissimum est
something about the disgraceful kiss of an ardent but vindictive ferret being particularly sweet!
Rod
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#27271
04/27/2001 12:59 PM
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for Dr. Bill's osculum infamum cum ferrum ardentum vindicatum dulcissimum est
rod offers: the disgraceful kiss of an ardent but vindictive ferret being particularly sweet!
I might suggest with burning iron but would proffer the ablative of means for of an ardent ... ferret giving us osculum infamum ferro ardento vindicatum dulcissimum est
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