#26849
04/19/2001 5:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
On the Straight Dope website, someone has taken grammatical issue. He says,
Cecil writes "Attending a dance at a professor's house, he got into a quarrel with one Manderup Parsbjerg, like himself a member of the Danish gentry." Seems to me that's a rather abrupt shift in antecedent. "He" and and "himself" I assume refer to Tycho, while "a member of the Danish gentry" to Manderup Parsbjerg. But it took a while for me to digest that sentence. It's not too important, but I thought I'd point it out as something to watch out for.
Others, including myself, had no trouble understanding the criticized sentence. I claim no special command of grammar, and so I ask: what, if anything, is wrong with the criticized sentence? Or is the sentence fine and the critic the problem?
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#26850
04/19/2001 6:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
If the sentence is intelligible the fault, dear Sparteye, is not in ourselves, but in the rules of the grammar.
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#26851
04/19/2001 6:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
I had no difficulty understanding the sentence. It seems to me that there is an ellipsis "...Manderup Parsbjerg, who was, like himself, a member of the Danish gentry."
Perhaps it would have been simpler to have said "... Manderup Parsbjerg who was also a member of the Danish gentry."
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#26852
04/20/2001 7:35 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393 |
I can't understand the problem. It's completely unambiguous. Perhaps because there are three people in it, and two anaphoric pronouns, "he" and "himself", and some ellipsis, it looks as if there could be a problem with reference. But there isn't. It's clear, and can only be read in the correct way.
Attending a dance at a professor's house, he
Well "he" obviously isn't the professor. It is clearly the unexpressed person attending.
with one Manderup Parsbjerg, like himself
This clearly doesn't mean that Parsbjerg resembles himself, that his mirror reflection is faithful. "One" introduces a new person. "B, like A" implies A is different and has already been mentioned. In "like himself", the "himself" refers back to someone already mentioned in the sentence. Since "he" couldn't refer to the professor, even more clearly the repetitive "self" can't: so this must be the person attending the professor's house, the "he".
like himself a member of the Danish gentry
while "a member of the Danish gentry" to Manderup Parsbjerg
No, it refers to both of them, obviously. Why does the commentator have to decide who it belongs to? "B like A is X" means unambiguously that both A and B are X.
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#26853
04/20/2001 7:38 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
It's the reviewer who's ambiguous. Like Ol' Nick, I found the sentence completely understandable first time up. It certainly doesn't need more words added to "simplify" it!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#26854
04/20/2001 7:43 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
I had stayed out of this, thinking that the ease with which I understood the senrtence indicated that I was missing some arcane flaw. Now that the experts have concurred, I feel safe to say that I didn't understand what the problem was.
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#26855
04/20/2001 12:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
Thank you, all. I appreciate your erudite opinions.
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#26856
04/20/2001 12:57 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Thank you, NW, for a complete and lucid explanation. Well done.
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