#26512
04/13/2001 11:26 AM
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As the polymaths here know, the date for Easter is calculated as the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal [nod to the Antipodeans present] equinox. This wanna-be who hopes to achieve poymathdom by cyber-osmosis understands this could possibly stem from a pagan spring holiday, but she was recently told the date for Passover is *also calculated in that fashion. Whence the difference, since the two dates rarely coincide?
Also, in Portuguese, and, I believe, in Spanish, Easter and Passover are the same word - pascoa and pascua. Is that the case in any other language?
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#26513
04/13/2001 11:36 AM
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Whence the difference, since the two dates rarely coincide?
Surely the difference that Pesach is not required to be held on a Sunday. Also The Church will often move Easter if it does fall on Passover, a nod to the competition, perhaps.
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#26514
04/13/2001 12:51 PM
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While both Easter and Passover do follow similar rules, Passover is determine by the Jewish calendar and the equinox-- the jewish calendar is a lunar calendar-- and never quite lines up with the western calendar.
The first sunday after the first full moon was chosen to accommodate pilgrim-- who might be traveling to a major city or cathedral for Easter. Full moon's (or almost full moons) offered night time light, and made traveling safer.
there is a roman catholic tradition of visiting nine churches, and saying (reciting) the "station of the cross" on holy saturday--In time past, these might be the towns one past thru on there way to the cathedral city.
The waning moon would still be high in the sky when pilgrim started out at 4 AM, and would offer some protection from highway robbers.
* * * * * * * * * * *
Interesting about the words for passover/easter in Spanish and Portuguese-- it very close in Italian, too. Pascali*, was a common name for boys born at eastertide. In English there is Pascal-- as in the Pascal Lamb (a name for god, and the main course for many Easter dinners!)
* I always heard it pronounced closer to Pasqualie.. But Pascali means both Passover and Easter.
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#26515
04/13/2001 1:12 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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she was recently told the date for Passover is *also calculated in that fashion
The first day (beginning with sundown) of Pesach is the 14th day of the Hebrew month of Nissin, and one of the four New Years of the Hebrew Calendar. The 14th day of NIssin is, by definition, the day of the full moon. During the time of Temple, witnesses had to having sighted the new moon (that would be the first sliver of moon, I believe); this was done in the outer courtyard of the Temple. It is recorded that Rabban Gamliel could predict the new moon without error, but the testimony is a requirement of law. In spite of this, it was accepted that the new moon could fall on only one of two days. The fourteenth day following the day of the attested sighting was the Pesach. The observation of two of each of the high holidays (the "Shalosh Regaleem," or three holidays in which the Jews were required to assemble in Jerusalem and Rosh Hashannah (but not Yom Kippur)) was instituted by the Rabbis in during the Babylonian exile: When valid testimony of the new moon had been given, a rider (riders?) were sent from Jerusalem to announce which day would be the 14th of Nissin. The message would be taken as far as the rider could travel in fourteen days. After that, the message would, obviously be late. Therefore, all those who beyond the radius of fourteen days' ride from Jerusalem were required to keep two holidays, since one would certainly be on the correct day.
Later, the riders were replaced by signal fires along chains of mountain tops leading out of Jerusalem. The Mishna reports that the fires were lit, first this and then the next until all the exile looked ablaze. The signal fires were abandoned when a renegade group of rabbis began lighting fires of their own without connection to the Temple testimony. According to the Mishna, these renegades called themselves "sadduceem."
The calculation of Easter, which wandered quite a bit, was the reason for establishing the Gregorian calendar. It was quite a feat of reckoning and a controversial idea that was not simple to implement. I hardly remember the story, but it is given in fair detail in "Calendar," which was published within the last three or four years.
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#26516
04/13/2001 1:23 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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In English there is Pascal-- as in the Pascal Lamb (a name for god, and the main course for many Easter dinners)!
The "pascal lamb" or korban pesach (passover offering, or sacrifice) was a special offering brought on the eve of Pesach. The lamb was slaughtered at the Temple and then cooked in small, portable clay ovens called "tanoorim" or "tanoor" (sing.) in the precincts of Jerusalem. I believe it had to be consumed in the city, but I'm not sure since the Talmud describes these ovens covering the hills all around the city. You bought a lamb with a group of people and only that group could share in eating it. That we invite strangers to join us a the seder is not so much out of charity, but a rememberance that the Temple has been destroyed and we can no longer bring the sacrifice. (Actually, there are plausible arguments that the korban pesach might still be brought in Shiloh, and I have heard there are those who do so.) The offering could not be blemished. One such blemish would be broken bones. Hence the the statement in the Christian liturgy that none of Jesus' bones were broken. According to that tradition, he is the korban pesach.
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#26517
04/13/2001 3:05 PM
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veteran
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The reason the Western churches and the Orthodox churches celebrate Easter in different weeks is due to the Orthodox churches' still using the Julian calendar for their calculation. This year, they happen to fall in the same week -- rare event.
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#26518
04/13/2001 3:48 PM
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Western churches and the Orthodox churches celebrate Easter in different weeks is due to the Orthodox churches' still using the Julian calendar for their calculation. This year, they happen to fall in the same week -- rare event.
I thought the Greek Easter and Roman Catholic Easter fall on same Sunday every four years.
I have Greek friends and get to celebrate twice!
I love Greek food. No NOT starting another food thread, thank you.
wow
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#26519
04/13/2001 5:07 PM
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According to that tradition, he is the korban pesach.
yes, the Pascal Lamb is the english for the Agnus Dei-- or the Lamb of God-- the offering to god, that was first asked of Abraham (the sacrafice of a son)--in jesus, the son and lamb become one...
in keeping with the jewish tradition of the offering of the lamb-- in roman catholic households, easter dinner was lamb-- served with fresh green herbs and vegetable (peas and mint)-- not the bitter herb of passover- but sweet herbs, since it was held that redemption had been reached...
much of this has passed, and now ham and turkey are more popluar for easter dinner than lamb--In our house we not only had real lamb, but the dessert was a cake baked in the shape of a lamb. (we never had a whole lamb-- we were too poor, only a leg of lamb-- but one year, one set of cousins did have a whole lamb)
We got chocolate, and peeps, and hardboiled, colored eggs, but no "easter bunny" decorations. Easter was very definately a religious holiday-- the candy, a sweet reminder of redemption...
There are a lot of pagan influences in RC beliefs (the closer you get to Ireland, the more there are!) but there are also many traditions that follow directly from judism-- priest vestments include a prayer shawl, and there is a garment, that covers the back and chest, with fringes on the corners(don't know the name of it,) -- in RC, a similar garment is called a scapula-- only the RC version is miniture-- about 2 by 2 square) except in some religious orders habits and in priest garments for services-- I wore one till i was in my teens, and broke with RC. the priest version of it is larger and includes fringes, the versions for not priest did not.-- i don't know if the number of fringes, is the same as in judism--
I was raised in a very RC household-- but since it was also an Irish household-- i got exposed to old fashioned RC traditions, (lamb for easter) and pagan irish beliefs too!
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#26520
04/13/2001 6:53 PM
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there is a garment, that covers the back and chest, with fringes on the corners(don't know the name of it,)
Chasuble.
Names of the vestments, inner to outer : amice, alb, cincture, stole, maniple and chasuble.
Remember Helen?
wow
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#26521
04/13/2001 7:07 PM
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Ann that is the sort of information, that by 13, i realize i could look up in my missle-- and never really learned-- after all, they (RC hierarchy) weren't going to let me become a alterboy or priest-- so what did i care what they wore--
But I also don't remember the name of the garment worn by some orthodox jews-- it is a large square cloth, it covers the chest and back, and has a number of fringes (a specific number) on the corners.--Maybe IP does-- as i recall, the name "stays intact"-- --its a bit convoluted -- the same way cathedral and sit-- are related. but definatelly related-- (scapula, related to the bone of the same name, to,..... to ..., to the hebrew garment name... sort of thing.
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#26522
04/13/2001 7:17 PM
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that is the sort of information, that by 13, i realize i could look up in my missle-- and never really learned
It's one of those things that stick in my head ... I have a drawer in my brain file jam packed with the darned stuff!
wow
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#26523
04/13/2001 7:55 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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But I also don't remember the name of the garment worn by some orthodox jews-- it is a large square cloth, it covers the chest and back, and has a number of fringes (a specific number) on the corners
The one generally worn under your shirt is referred to as a "beged" (beg ed; accent on first syllable) although that's just a generic term for an article of clothing. The fringes are called tsi-tsis. The Torah says they have be attached to the corners of "your four-cornered garment," so they are not actually part of the garment. The word you're probably looking for is "Talit," which a married man wears at morning prayer and on shabbos and which will be his funeral shroud.
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#26524
04/13/2001 11:32 PM
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addict
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small, portable clay ovens called "tanoorim" or "tanoor"
Veering a little from the topic, but there's a striking similarity between this word and the tandoor of India - a small clay oven. Facts, ideas, theories or wild speculation on the roots of this similarity?
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#26525
04/14/2001 11:21 AM
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small, portable clay ovens called "tanoorim" or "tanoor" Veering a little from the topic, but there's a striking similarity between this word and the tandoor of India - a small clay oven. Facts, ideas, theories or wild speculation on the roots of this similarity?I'd speculately wildly that since a clay oven is an old old thang, it's likely that "tanoor" and "tandoor" are cognates from the Ur-language. Linguist Alexis Manaster Ramer calls it Nostratic: If Dr. Manaster Ramer is right, his discovery will provide ammunition for a small group of linguists who make the controversial claim that Indo-European, Uralic, Altaic and other language families like Afro-Asiatic, which includes Arabic and Hebrew, the Kartvelian languages of the South Caucasus and the Dravidian languages concentrated in southern India, all are descendants of Nostratic, which was spoken more than 12,000 years ago. For more, see: http://www.santafe.edu/~johnson/articles.nostratic.htmlAnd thanks for the explanations on Easter and Pesach! 
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#26526
04/14/2001 11:52 AM
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I'd speculately wildly that since a clay oven is an old old thang, it's likely that "tanoor" and "tandoor" are cognates from the Ur-language. Linguist Alexis Manaster Ramer calls it Nostratic:
That's the second time in a week that Nosratic has been mentioned! The cagey NicholasW made reference to it in the "Etruscan" thread, but carefully refrained from expressing his take on the subject. What struck me from reading the link you gave was that the link between "tanoor" and "tandoor" need not be that old anyway. It might be one of those "konpyuutaa" or "Makudonarudo" type of words. The Biblical record mentions Solomon trading with India, so there's at least a chance that one or other party filched the word in question. I hope that your inserting "Nostratic" into the subject line will lure NicholasW into the fray once more.
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#26527
04/14/2001 4:45 PM
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Cool, Max!  That's what I get for not keeping up with all the threads... thanks for the outpoint re: "cagey" Nicholas and the Etruscans. It might be one of those "konpyuutaa" or "Makudonarudo" type of words. Right on the tip of my tongue! 
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#26528
04/15/2001 12:07 AM
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addict
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women were not allowed to sing the responses or hymns at Mass if men were available to do it. Then even madder still when Vatican II kept the rule!  What! I'm a lifelong RC and truly cannot remember ever hearing this! But it's a great conversation-starter when the Bishop comes for dinner next week. Can't wait to see what he says. On reflection, however, and considering the patriarchy in the Church, I guess it shouldn't really surprise me (except the part about Vatican II).
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#26529
04/15/2001 1:11 PM
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when the Bishop comes for dinner next week.
Just remember that Chess rule :
Bishops can only move obliquely!
Let me know, by PM,if the rule has been changed of late.
Thank you.
Aloha,
wow
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#26530
04/15/2001 6:03 PM
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It might be one of those "konpyuutaa" or "Makudonarudo" type of words
Or skosh, another one they stole from us.
But, all seriousness aside, I have long been interested in this Nostratic hypothesis and am willing to accept it for consideration in my attempt to unsuccessfully understand the universe, but feel that things really do get misty that far back. Cross connections such as those mentioned by Max may indeed exist to muddy the mist further, but certainly clay ovens are very old and people that still use them most likely have a continuous tradition of using them and things that don't change much tend to keep the words for them similarly unchanged.
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#26531
04/17/2001 11:38 AM
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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No need to invoke the deep connexions of Nostratic. A much simpler explanation is the true one: borrowing. It's a common cultural word troughout the area. Urdu and Punjabi tandûr get their extraneous D from the Turkish; I can't explain this D. Persian and Hebrew tannur, Arabic tannûr, Aramaic tannûrâ, Assyrian tinûru.
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#26532
04/18/2001 12:12 AM
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Oh frabjous day! I got one right, and NicholasW says so - WOOHOO!  Thanks.
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#26533
04/18/2001 2:10 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Veering a little from the topic, but there's a striking similarity between this word and the tandoor of India - a small clay oven. Facts, ideas, theories or wild speculation on the roots of this similarity?Jeepers, they bit!
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#26534
04/18/2001 3:48 PM
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old hand
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I came to this conversation a bit late, but I don't understand:
The reason the Western churches and the Orthodox churches celebrate Easter in different weeks is due to the Orthodox churches' still using the Julian calendar for their calculation. This year, they happen to fall in the same week -- rare event.
The date of Easter, calculated as given, shouldn't depend on the calendar. The equinox is an astronomical thing, it is when the days and nights have the same length, and whether I call it "March 21" and you call it "March 7" or not, it happens at the same time. The full moon following it also doesn't care what date it is. And though the calendars do not agree on dates, the days of the week are parallel in both calendars (aren't they?), so the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal Equinox is still the same Sunday, whether you name it "April 15" or "April 1" or some other thing altogether.
I don't recall the Ukrainian half of my family celelbrating Easter at a different time. Christmas, yes, but not Easter...at least I don't think so! Someone please explain this!
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#26535
03/26/2002 12:56 PM
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Speaking of resurrections...
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#26536
03/26/2002 2:02 PM
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The date of Easter, calculated as given, shouldn't depend on the calendar.
Yeahbut©, it's been my understanding that the Christians normalized the March equinox to some specific date (March 21?) whether it did actually© fall on that date or not and normalized the date of the full moon in a like manner. The reason for the Gregorian calendar reform was that the date for Easter was drifting off from the real equinox.
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#26537
03/26/2002 2:23 PM
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old hand
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normalized the March equinox to some specific date (March 21?)
I recall being taught that it fluctuated somewhat. As do the full moons. (Check on a calendar, the pattern of new/first quarter/full/last quarter isn't quite the same number of days apart, since the actual lengths of time between phases are not integral numbers of days.) (Insert an "argh" as I lapse into mathspeak.)
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#26538
03/26/2002 3:33 PM
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being taught that it fluctuated somewhat
As indeed it does. But for purposes of calculating Easter, the Christians normalized it to a specific, more or less correct, date. The date of the full moon varies widely, but the timing from the new moon is (also more or less) farily consistent and it is this timing from the new moon that was normalized. My understanding included the datum that the dating of Pesach was counted from the actual equinox which can differ slightly from the Christian normalized one. If the full moon comes between the actual equinox and the Christian normalized one the dates of Easter and Pesach can be close to a month apart.
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#26539
03/26/2002 5:23 PM
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old hand
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Well, my dear Faldage, here is what I found at the Vatican:
1170 At the Council of Nicaea in 325, all the Churches agreed that Easter, the Christian Passover, should be celebrated on the Sunday following the first full moon (14 Nisan) after the vernal equinox. Because of the different methods of calculating the 14th day of the month of Nisan, the date of Easter in the Western and Eastern churches is not always the same. For this reason, the churches are currently seeking an agreement in order once again to celebrate the day of the Lord's Resurrection on a common date.
So I guess what you're referring to is the bit about calculating the 14th day of the month of Nisan. Although I also see what you're getting at. It would be nice to have some old calendars to peruse (rather than Googling, somehow this seems easier).
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#26540
03/26/2002 5:35 PM
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old hand
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Here's a long and complicated page about it: http://www.smart.net/~mmontes/ec-cal.htmlI haven't actually read it yet (I'm about to), just wanted to post it now in case you're online. EDIT: Looks like you're right on - there is a standardized date for the equinox and range of dates for the full moon in question, and I like the reasoning given - that full moons may occur on different dates in different parts of the world, making Easter at different times in different parts of the world - so this does standardize it, as you mentioned:
Easter is the Sunday after the Paschal Full Moon. The Paschal Full Moon may occur from March 21 through April 18, inclusive. Thus the date of Easter is from March 22 through April 25, inclusive. The date of the Paschal full moon is determined from tables, and it may differ from the date of the the actual full moon by up to two days. This definition, along with tables, etc. may be found in "The Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Ephemeris and American Ephemeris
and Nautical Almanac". This definition that uses tables instead of actual observations of the full moon is useful and necessary since the the full moon may occur on different (local, not UT) dates depending where you are in the world. If the date of Easter was based on local observations, then it would be possible for different parts of the world to celebrate Easter on different dates in the same year.
I feel better, now that the question is answered.
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#26541
03/26/2002 5:50 PM
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the full moon may occur on different (local, not UT) dates
The center of the sun crosses the equator in an instant. The moment of the full moon is an instant. I can see the problem if these instants happen on a Sunday in one part of the world and a Saturday in others, but it should be possible to set the date of Easter based on the timing of these instants in, say Jerusalem. Of course this was probably beyond the capabilities of the early Christians who were setting this up in the first place, but then they didn't have the problem of determining the date of Easter in Kiribati, either.
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#26542
04/11/2002 10:43 AM
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For Bede's account of the Synod of Whitby, where representatives from the Celtic Irish tradition and the European Roman Catholic tradition met in England to discuss their different systems for determining Easter, see http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/bede-book3.html, and scroll down until you get to Chapter XXV. Bingley
Bingley
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