#26122
04/07/2001 6:12 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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There is a car in my neighborhood driven by a tenager. A bumper sticker on the back says:
"The music's not loud. You are old."
Now, although the volume is "cranked up" it is not the loudness of the music ... it is the bass vibration, along with bass beat, that hits me in the head and stomach like a sledgehammer.
The teens tell me they like the way the deep bass and beat make their insides vibrate! It gives me a headache.
There's a word for that combination of beat and intensity but I cannot remember it ... timbre keeps popping into my head but that isn't quite it!
HELP!
wow
P.S. Must say that when I told them the effect the loud beat had on me, the teens turned off the radio and do so whenever they are visiting their compatriots next door. Good kids!
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#26123
04/07/2001 6:27 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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[greenthere's a word for that combination of beat and intensity but I cannot remember it ... timbre keeps popping into my head but that isn't quite it!--its likely at least partially true.
"low bass rumble"?
As to the bumper stick ("the music isn't loud, you are old") you might respond with another "the music isn't moderate, you are deaf"
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#26124
04/07/2001 6:44 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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I have read that a lot of kids significantly damage their hearing by playing music much too loud, particularly with some of the portable types that have earphones. Kids today really do have "too much too soon."
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#26125
04/07/2001 9:34 PM
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In the sixties Hi-Fi's (High Fidelity for you's young'ins) had a "rumble" knob which controlled different parts of the lower(HZ)frequencies (depending on manufacturer). If I remember correctly, it wasn't a cut in low frequencies, it was a built in low frequency amplifier that gave you an extra boost, which "sympathetically" made your speakers rumble (and blew them out if you weren't careful). OSHA has very specific rules for repetitive exposure to loud sounds for that very reason. An 8 hour average exposure to more than 85db will require ear plug use. I used my db meter to test something for us to compare that we may all understand, and I came up with 86 db standing right next to my home forced air furnace. I'll bet they peak somwhere close to the threshold of pain (120db)... but then again, I've heard pleasure described that way often enough...  WOW - I use an arrangers term, used to desribe a lot of emphasis on a single frequency, or a lot of instruments playing the same note... "weight".
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#26126
04/08/2001 11:40 AM
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addict
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addict
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Wow - I'm not sure what the musical term may be, but youngsters here refer to that sound as "doof".
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#26127
04/08/2001 1:33 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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youngsters here refer to that sound as "doof".
Interesting ... but haven't heard it at this end of the world.
Musick? Any thoughts? Have you heard the term "doof?"
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#26128
04/08/2001 2:05 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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tssika - tssika - tssika - tssika - tssika - tssika.... oo........aaaah........oo........aaaah........oo.... Doof - Doof - Doof - Doof - Doof - Doof - Doof - Doof.... --------------------------------------------------------- I've made that exact sound with (with my voice) to replace the unavailable electronic "bass drum" sound, and it works! Much less expensive than the equipment. I haven't heard it used as a term to describe the sound, but it is beyond onomatopoetic for me... it is precisely the sound - no imitation there! 
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#26129
04/08/2001 3:47 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear wow,
When I am in a particularly good mood and alone in my car,
I (yeah I know, I'm not a teenager any more) still love to
crank up The Backstreet Boys with full bass, as loud as I can stand it, and try to outsing them, and the best word I can think of for the bass good vibrations is throb.
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#26130
04/09/2001 8:32 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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What's the musical term for being on stage with a 200-watt Marshall amplifier driving two quad boxes behind you and having one of the speakers in a quad box blow the magnet out between your legs? Happened to me fifteen years ago or so. "Doof" probably does it.  It certainly weakened my knees a little!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#26131
04/09/2001 10:41 AM
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addict
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addict
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blow the magnet out between your legs CK has a magnet between his legs? Explains why all the girls on this board are attracted to him. But I don't think I will explore this phraseology any further!  rod
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#26132
04/09/2001 4:10 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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... one of the speakers in a quad box blow the magnet out between your legs? ... It certainly weakened my knees a little!
And left him polarized with fear!
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#26133
04/09/2001 4:25 PM
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veteran
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A good bass sound is appreciated by classical fans as well. I have quite a few CDs of organ music (organ pieces or choral pieces with organ accompaniment). If you have a big piece like Liszt's Fantasie and Fugue on B-A-C-H or a good English organist accompanying a cathedral choir singing a psalm to an Anglican chant, when things get really warmed up and the 32-foot stops go on, the floor in my living room vibrates up and down, flowers sway in the vases, and the pictures rattle against the walls (and the music isn't terrifically loud).
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#26134
04/09/2001 8:26 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yes, Bob. I know zackley what you mean - the music doesn't have to be turned up that loud. Must have something to do with the harmonics, yes?
And, anyone:
Any relationship between "woof" (as in "woofer/tweeter") and "doof"?
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#26135
04/09/2001 8:32 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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A good bass sound is appreciated by classical fans as well.
Here I go, agreeing with BobY again!
One thing though is the difference between classical and (for lack of better word) modern.
The difference in the sound is similar to the clean cut of a scalpel (classical bass) and the THWACKTHUMP of a cleaver weilded by a heavy hand.
My stereo can make the water in a glass dance to the tune of Ode To Joy, and makes me tingle all over!
But it doesn't hit me in the pit of the stomach like the THWACKTHUMP of the augmented base staccato beat in a modern piece.
wow
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#26136
04/10/2001 2:05 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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I don't fancy myself a classical music fan ~ in fact sometimes, I find classical music puts me on edge. [shrug] What I *do* claim aficionada status on, however, is a capella. I bought my current stereo specifically for the "Bass Boost" capability, because few things can bring me to my knees like Rockapella's bass-man hitting his last note of Sixteen Tons. Have mercy. 
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#26137
04/10/2001 3:17 PM
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The bumper sticker is right : I'm too old!
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#26138
04/10/2001 3:26 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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But only for deep and throbbing bass lines, dearest wise one!
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#26139
04/10/2001 3:45 PM
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harmonics
Yes, it does have to do with harmonics. I'm not an expert on this subject, but we are all, I guess, familiar with the story of the opera singer who could break a glass by singing the correct note; in fact, there was a commercial on TV some time ago which purported to show that. From my own experience, I noted an interesting manifestation of this: last year, on a big festival, our organist at church, as postlude, treated us to the Toccata from Widor's 5th Organ Symphony, a well-known piece which reminds me of a bus blowing its horn while going through the tunnel under the Simplon Pass (I've heard that, so I can make the comparison) and ends up on the tonic major chord with all stops on and everything wide open. As he was playing this, I noticed that the big brass altar cross was vibrating with the music. Not having ever played that piece or seen the score, I had to ask what key it was in to see what that piece of brasswork was tuned to.
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#26140
04/10/2001 4:44 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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The Wise Old Woman states: I'm too old!
That may or may not be, but the music is also too loud. Hearing deteriorates with age and if being too old were the problem it would be less of a problem.
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#26141
04/10/2001 5:21 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Although I alluded to the definition earlier, the term used truly is "sympathetic vibrations". The "harmonics" of a note are what (most often) are sympathetically vibrated by source sounds. An example of the difference in these terms can be demonstrated on a piano by slowly holding down the forte' pedal (the one on the right that allows the notes to sustain) and singing a note into its strings. The resulting sounds that comes from the strings is sympathetically generated. The resulting loudest tones are usually the harmonics or upper octaves and extensions of "Pythagorean proportions", and unless you yell or sing real loud, the fundamental or lowest occuring octave (ie. your voice note) resists sympathising. "Is it live, or is it Ella Fitzgerald"?
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#26142
04/10/2001 8:02 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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"sympathetic vibrations".
these are pretty cool-- here is a neat trick when watch a tv commerical-- (you should be at least 6 to 8 back from the tv for this to work.)
watch the tv , take a couple of deep breathes, and then, start to hum-- on middle c- (a piano is a nice start-- or some one with a good sence of pitch) Hum and watch the televisions.
Most human skulls have sympathetic vibrations with middle c, which also happen to have sympathetic vibrations with 60HZ-- TV screen are "refreshed" at a rate of 60 hz-- so after a while what happens in you can "See the the refresh rate" (this also happens when you make a tape recording of a TV broadcast) it distorts the image in an interesting way... it works for about 85 to 90% of the populations-- I used to know all the math (ie, frequecy of Middle C in Hz, most common frequency of human skull, etc.) but like Musick trick with the piano-- you can experient with sympathetic vibrations.
I have also heard that the "Throb" or bass beat of a lot of rock 'n roll is a sympathetic vibrations to the human heard beat-- so music can actually effect your heart rhythm.... so Wow, you might be "too old" -- music that once moved you, might now give you pain....
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#26143
04/11/2001 1:47 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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<<sympathetic vibration>>
While we're on fun experiments you can do at home, has anyone ever done the triboluminesence bit? Apparently, if you pop a wintergreen lifesaver (gotta be wintergreen, according to the pros) in your mouth facing a mirror in a darkened room and bite down on it with your mouth open, you should see a flash of light. I invested in two rolls of lifesavers with disappointing results. But triboluminesence is a real phenomenon and a physcist tells me there's no reason it shouldn't work. [honest emoticon]
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#26144
04/11/2001 3:36 AM
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Joined: Jun 2000
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old hand
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old hand
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Is a predominant bass leading a piece of music called funk?
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#26145
04/11/2001 3:36 AM
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old hand
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old hand
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Wow - I'm not sure what the musical term may be, but youngsters here refer to that sound as "doof".Around here the teenagers refer to making those artificial earthquakes as "bumping." Although I find it to be gosh-awful annoying, I must confess to having been young once. Back in the 1960s I had an old Renault 4CV with a highly modified engine. When I could get away with it I would remove the muffler and install a 38" pipe with an 18" megaphone attatched. The yowl of that little engine at 8,000rpm was music to my severely overtaxed ears! There's an article in the latest Popular Mechanics magazine about the correlation between automobile exhaust sounds and the driver's mental state. The Flowmaster muffler company is doing research on tuning mufflers to the emotions of a car's intended market. If only Orwell could see us now! 
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#26146
04/11/2001 10:01 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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funk?
That's certainly my understanding of funky music, Avy - led by a bit fat bass riff.
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#26147
04/11/2001 12:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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In reply to:
<<sympathetic vibration>>
While we're on fun experiments you can do at home, has anyone ever done the triboluminesence bit? Apparently, if you pop a wintergreen lifesaver (gotta be wintergreen, according to the pros) in your mouth facing a mirror in a darkened room and bite down on it with your mouth open, you should see a flash of light. I invested in two rolls of lifesavers with disappointing results. But triboluminesence is a real phenomenon and a physcist tells me there's no reason it shouldn't work. [honest emoticon]
It really, really works. Here's why, courtesy of The Straight Dope:
"Step One: When you shatter the sugar crystals with your teeth, electrons (which are negatively charged) break free. As a result, the atoms in which the electrons were formerly embedded become positively charged. In what amounts to a subatomic game of musical chairs, the free electrons dash around madly trying to find a new home.
Step Two: Meanwhile, as the sugar crystals disintegrate, nitrogen molecules from the air attach themselves to the fractured surfaces. When the free electrons strike the nitrogen molecules, they cause the latter to emit invisible ultraviolet radiation, along with a faint visible glow.
Step Three: The UV radiation is absorbed by the wintergreen flavoring, methyl salicylate. This then emits the fairly bright blue light you see."
-- http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_129.html
I can verify the theory, having tested it empirically. If you've had trouble getting the expected results, here are some suggestions. (1) Make sure that the wintergreen lifesavers you are using are fresh. Older ones which had absorbed moisture won't snap sufficiently when bit to create the shattering of sugar crystals required to generate the reaction. (2) Be sure to be in an absolutely dark space, as the light is faint and it easily obliterated by competing light sources. (3) Give your eyes time to adjust to the darkness before attempting to view the show. Happy crunching.
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#26148
04/11/2001 12:31 PM
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the triboluminesence bit?
I thought this was -- and now i am not sure i have the right word-- pyroelectric-- which my M-W10th says is related to a change in temperature- but i was looking for a py word for the effect of pressure-- (used in "Quartz" cystal watches-- ) which wintergreen, (and yes, it must be wintergreen, peppermints or spearmints candies won't work) exhibits.
As you apply pressure to the candy, you get small flashes of electric discharge-- similar to static. --
the same effect can't be seen with the naked eye, but if you put scotch (cellophane tape) on glass, then put the glass on top of photographic paper, (exposed paper)-- and peel the tape of the glass, you get a series of "sparks" which show up clearly once the film has been developed... (an other weird science game to play with your kids--) the cheap stuff works better than the expensive stuff.
I used to encourage fun science projects like this-- but i drew the line when my teen age son started to make bombs-- (not serious bombs, but something called "popcorn bombs" made out of tin foil, they expand and pop open like a grain of popcorn-- the make a loud poppin noise too, and scare the dickens out of you! Still, i didn't think bomb making was a good hobbie for home!) but since he saw no harm (he wasn't thinking of blowing things up, just of scaring his sister and her friends) He was doing out in the open, not secretly, so it was easy to put a stop to it.
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#26149
04/11/2001 1:18 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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While we're still on the subject of fun experiments you can do at home, an excellent book for any of you with children is Nathan Shalit's "Cup and Saucer Chemistry," which may still be available from Dover Books. Shalit walks you through a good number of chemistry experiments that can be performed using--harmless--items found around the kitchen.
(and thanks, Sparts)
(As to wintergreen lifesavers, I have it on the authority of The Straight Dope (Sparts duly thanked above) that "triboluminescence" is the correct term.)
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#26150
04/11/2001 1:29 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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but i was looking for a py word for the effect of pressure
Piezoelectric
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#26151
04/11/2001 3:03 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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The fresh wintergreen Life Savers do make sparks ... I impressed the heck out of several kidddies by demonstrating the trick and teaching them to do it.
They think I am "way cool."
wow
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#26152
04/11/2001 10:35 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Re: sympathetic vibrations--my husband says that when a
troop of armed forces is on the march, they are ordered to
march out of step going over a bridge, because the sympathetic vibrations can cause some bridges to collapse.
Also--in one of Clive Cussler's works of fiction (can't remember which, but can LIU if anyone's really interested),
the enemy had developed a weapon of incredibly destructive power that used sound waves. Bad literature, but theoretically "sound" technology, I think. [groaning at her
own unintended pun emoticon]
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#26153
04/12/2001 3:51 PM
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veteran
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Sympathetic vibration
I too have heard the marching-over-a-bridge theory, but I don't believe that would be sympathetic vibration as it is defined. However, a common, and benign (no H.G.Wells stuff) everyday use of sympathetic vibration is in tuning instruments.
To tune a piano, organ or harpsichord (and they need tuning more often than most people would think, especially a harpsichord which can go out of tune in a half hour) you don't need a tuning fork or electronic pitchpipe for each note in the scale. A friend of mine who bought a harpsichord asked our organist how to tune it easily. The answer: use a tuning fork to tune middle C; then tune C one octave above and one below, then tune E, G, and B-flat from there, all by holding down those notes and striking hard on C. You tune the octaves of C by listening to the beating of the two notes. Once you have tuned middle C with the tuning fork and you know that one is in tune, you tune the octaves from the beating sound you hear when you play both together. The slower the beating, the farther off; as you get the one more into tune with the first, the beating gets faster, and when you don't hear beating, they are in tune. The beating comes from the sound waves being out of synch and colliding with each other in the air before they reach our ears.
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#26154
04/12/2001 4:38 PM
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Our Man in Ballmer suggests: use a tuning fork to tune middle C; then tune C one octave above and one below, then tune E, G, and B-flat from there etc. This will produce a tuning that sounds great in C, in fact even better than the normal tuning in which you tune each note individually to a standard reference. As you depart from the key of C around the circle of fifths (C-G-D-A-E-B-F#/Gb-Db-Ab-Eb-Bb-F-C) the tuning will get worse and worse until you hit F#/Gb at which point it will start to get better until you get back around to C. If you are interested in this tuning see http://www.dnai.com/~jinetwk/.
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#26155
04/12/2001 5:25 PM
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Tuning
I daresay either I grossly oversimplified the tuning process or my organist friend did in his advice. What you describe is, of course, the problem of natural tuning, which was solved by tempered tuning, which became the standard method thanks largely to its championship by J.S. Bach nearly 300 years ago. Doing your own tuning takes a good ear at least and a good sense of relative pitch. Perfect pitch sense would be very useful, but few people have it.
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#26156
04/12/2001 6:08 PM
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I'm sure you have seen the effect of "harmonic resonance" on "Those amazing disaster shows" where a cabled-suspension(?) bridge twists and torques in the wind. Just a bit too "sympathetic".
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#26157
04/12/2001 7:01 PM
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BobY adds: ...tempered tuning, which became the standard method thanks largely to its championship by J.S. Bach nearly 300 years ago.It gets even more complex than that. The change didn't happen all in one swell foop. There were bunches of partially tempered systems with all kinds weird names like 1/4 comma mean tone that fit in the general category of non-just non-equal temperaments ( http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/temp.htm). The system we use today is called equal temperament; the relation between the frequencies of any of the adjacent notes in the 12 tone scale is identical. Thus Freq(E):Freq(F)::Freq(A#):Freq(B). Mozart did not have the benefit of this temperament scheme and some of his music, in my opinion, shows it. I had never been a great fan of Mozart until I went to a Malcolm Bilson concert in which he was showing off his new pianoforte. He had it tuned in the temperament that Mozart would have used and was pretty much restricted to playing in three keys. He played one piece that he had introed by saying that most composers would repeat a motif maybe two or three times but that Mozart had done it 13 times in this piece. Mozart had taken the little three or four note theme and dragged it kicking and screaming around the circle of fifths watching it get more and more discordant until it made it halfway around at which point it slowly came back to harmonious accord. Ever since then I have listened for that sort of thing in Mozart's music (which I am getting more and more appreciative of Hi E) wondering what it would sound like if they were playing in his temperament.
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#26158
04/12/2001 9:00 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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The system we use today is called equal temperament; the relation between the frequencies of any of the adjacent notes in the 12 tone scale is identical. Thus Freq(E):Freq(F)::Freq(A#):Freq(B). Mozart did not have the benefit of this temperament scheme and some of his music, in my opinion, shows it. That's the problem with being non-musical. I recently watched a series that I really enjoyed called "Howard Goodall's Big Bangs", on the history of Western music, and, not being remotely musical myself, I lapped it all up. Imagine my disappointment on learning that he had sold me a pup with his statement that J.S. Bach's "The Well-Tempered Clavier" was largely responsible for our "equal temperament" system, even specifically mentioning Mozart and saying that some of his music would not have been possible without it.  Once again, the TV has lied to me.
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#26159
04/13/2001 12:01 PM
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The suspension bridge that is shown in most "disaster" TV shows in the Tacoma Narrows bridge– and it fail because of an engineering flaw.
Engineers where trying to be build lighter and "more elegant" bridges. The goal was strong, lightweight bridges. Reducing the weight meant smaller anchorages, and less maintenance
The bridge design was fine for supporting weight– but its light weight design had trouble coping with the high winds in the Tacoma Narrows gorge. It was high winds that caused the failure. The bridge start falling faster than gravity– since it wasn't so much rising and falling as it was oscillating.. The oscillation eventual (with in minutes once they really got going) destroyed the bridge.
The same engineering company used almost the same design for the Whitestone bridge across the East River connecting the Bronx to Long Island. After the failure of the Tacoma bridge, the Whitestone bridge was "improved" with new structural steel, in the form of triangular bracing. (Since the design was excellent for downward stress/weight, the bridge could carry the load.) This was installed in what was original the pedestrian pathways. The Whitestone bridge is still pretty bouncy it's 'interesting' to drive over when there are heavy winds. – but it's close to 70 years old, and still carries a heavy volume of traffic.
But some bridges have failed because of rhythmic stress of humans, not wind. Back in the 70, and again in the 80's, "Walkways" in malls and hotels have failed when a number of dancers, all moving to the same beat, caused sympatric vibrations. And the NY Marathon has rules about the number and speed of runners on the Verrazano Bridge- at the start of the race. So the is something to it.
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#26160
04/13/2001 3:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
NY Marathon has rules about the number and speed of runners on the Verrazano Bridge- at the start of the race. So the is something to it.
I have shot off a note to Army pal for clarification on present practice ...back atcha' when I get an answer. He's used to my whacky questions.
wow
EDIT : about 4:45 p.m. EDT
My Army chum says : "I have never read anything in any manuals, I know that it isn't in FM22-5 (Drill & Ceremony).
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#26161
04/13/2001 4:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
MaxQ complains: he (Howard Goodall) had sold me a pup with his statement that J.S. Bach's "The Well-Tempered Clavier" was largely responsible for our "equal temperament" system
It certainly led the way. Before any of the temperament schemes the just intonation system, which was based on the harmonic tuning, would not have allowed for the playing of any key on a keyboard instrument such as a a harpsichord or, later, a piano. In a well temperament the various keys *do have different qualities, the thirds and fifths are all slightly different. If Mozart had tried to write his music in just intonation the romp around the circle of fifths I described above, rather than leading to increased and then decreased discordance (and it wasn't really *bad, just a little off color) would have ended in a train wreck when he came back home.
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