#25564
04/01/2001 9:14 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
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Since this rant is not directed at any particular person, I hope my vehemence, nay even naked aggression, intemperance and vitriol, will be forgiven. As some of you may be aware, I swing both ways  : I have deep cultural roots in India and England [anticlimax emoticon]. As a result, in anglophone situations, while I stubbornly defend English traditions, I will usually allow them to be subject to the recognition of prior claims of possession by cultures from which the language has only recently borrowed words, phrases or ideas. Gandhi, in my opinion, is one such recent borrowing, and should, therefore, be accorded the respect of: a) following the Inidan orthography; and b) following, as far as possible for anglophone tongues, Indian pronunciation (or more specifically, the mixed Hindi-Gujarati standard for pronunciation of the word). Accordingly I will now now make the case for the former, and then try to explain the latter. I have often heard people say that names are not real words, and hence there are no rules about how they should be pronounced or speeled. I find this reasoning inexplicable. The given names, as opposed to the taxonomic names, of living things are defined by the giver. In the case of a pet this is usually the owner, and in the case of a person it is usually a parent. Once defined, I feel, that name is fixed, and others do not have the option of treating it as if it were mere clay, mouldable to their orthographic or vocal whims. [A digression: my animadversion in this regard is towards those who give, as proper names, diminutives, or logomorphs (changed or corrupted words, IMIU) and refuse to acknowledge or appreciate the difference between those and the originals. A person christened Dan has a different (and IMO inferior, connotatively and euphonically) name from one christened Daniel, even though the latter may most commonly also be referred to as Dan. The former can never be a Daniel come to judgement! Back to the topic at hand, however...] When a name in a language that is not English is rendered in the Roman script, for English speakers, complications ensure. Is Atahualpa a fair rendition of the Inca emperor's name? Have we actually appropriated a Spanish rendition, itself a logomorph based upon Hispanic vocal paradigms? Here, I believe, we have to find a balance between our customs and practice, and respect for given names and cultural preferences of those named. I have stated before my preference, in our times, for a 100 year amnesty. If a name has been rendered in our language in a particular, albeit inaccurate, way for over 100 years, let it be, I say. For any name more recently imported (or brought to our notice) we should make every effort to achieve some semblance of accuracy - either through as phonetic a rendition as possible, or through accpetance of the form favoured by the native users of that language and name. Ignorance, or neglect of this principle, is what led so many Indians in the early 1980s to be in awe of the English all-round cricketer they called Iron Bottom. (Ayleurs from cricket-playing countries should get the reference.) My final defence of point a) relies, strangely enough, upon custom and practice in written Egnlish. If, in English texts, Gandhi is more common than Ghandi, then upon what grounds will the minority of Ghandi-ans base their usage, particularly if they are not even the Indian owners of the name? "Norra lotta people know this" but the word's third largest English-language publishing industry is in India. It is behind only those of the US and the UK. So yes, it is larger than those of Canada, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa. Given that the majority of these books are likely to be textbooks (I remember reading in the '80s that India turned out more science graduates than any country bar the US and the USSR), I presume that the word Gandhi appears many more times in print than the corruption Ghandi. I have laid out my primary argument and would now like to supplement it with a description of the pronunciation of the word and, adventitiously, show why it too supports my case. Whilst this may not represent phonetic best practice, I will split the word into five sounds: G, A, N, DH and I. I will describe their pronunciation, using where possible English equivalents. Finally, I will also attempt to show why, in terms of the English Roman script, this spelling is the most reasonable. G is the sound of the g in garotte or goose. It is not the mildly aspirated gh in ghoul. In English, g is the most common way in which this sound is transcribed. A is the sound of the first a in fart. Not the one in fat, or in fate. Nor even the one in fraught (those who pronounce Nepal in that way - beware). Again, in English, this sound is most commonly represented by a - the alternative aa being used, I suspect, only in words borrowed from languages that also use the Roman script: eg aardvark. N is the sound of the n in anthrax. To Hindi or Gujarati speakers this is distinct from the n sound in under, anchor/angler or melange; and is, even to English ears, different from that in answer, unnecessary or unregenerate. DH has no English equivalent. It is like a cross between the plosive d of Home Simpson's 'Doh' and the soft British (RP) th in 'the'. The combination dh is also rare (I think non-existent?) in English, so is unlikely to be confused with the d sound of bode or dog. I is closest to the ee in feet, though it is flatter, not taking on the diphthongal quality it has in marked RP. To that extent, this is the one place in which the standard Indian orthography could be improved. In any case, it should never be pronounced like the i in fight or bite. The French i in vite is much closer. My rant is nearly done. I promised, however, some vitriol and, besides the choice of examples in the prnunciation guide, here it is. It is my opinion that those who spell Gandhi Ghandi, or pronounce it GAN-dye are suffering from either: a) woeful ignorance; or b) intolerable, culturally imperialistic, arrogance; or a combination of the two. I pause for a reply. cheer the sunshine warrior ps. Many of these arguments also apply to my prefernece of Gujarat over Gujerat as the English-Roman rendition of the name of the Indian State that was M K ("Mahatma") Gandhi's home state. The vowel in question is closest to the English schwa ("the neutral, unaccented vowel"). Most Indian languages however, like Classical Greek, use syllabic length rather than stress for their rhythm. So the 'a' is simply the neutral vowel, and probably the commonest sound in Hindi.  pps. Apologies for any typos - am not using a word processor.
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#25565
04/01/2001 9:35 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Wow! Thank you for the detailed explanation of how to pronounce Mr Mohandas' family name. I was staggered to learn that there could be anybody anywhere who spelled it any way other than Gandhi. I was also suprised to learn that "Gujerat" even existed as a spelling for the state I have only ever known as Gujarat. I grew up with neighbours whose origins were from Gujarat (adj. Gujarathi?), and have never seen the state or the language spelled any other way. Is there any chance you could record the correct pronunciation of Gandhi, and upload it to AWADabilia to demonstrate your excellent summary?
On the whole issue of spelling personal names, and endeavouring to emulate orignal-language pronunciation as closely as possible, I am entirely on your side. My own real name is forever being mispelled as people choose the more common of two spelling options, and I hate it. I also regard it nothing more than basic common courtesy to try to pronounce someone's name the way they do, to the best of my ability. I have found that asking for assistance in doing this can be a great way to build a rapport, and the pleasure it gives the other person is well worth the minimal effort involved. Continue to fight the good fight, my friend, I for one would join you in the trenches on this. I just hope that you are more successful than the boys from White Hart Lane were: 2-0
Sorry, couldn't resist!
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#25566
04/01/2001 10:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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May one (with some trepidation, I might add) inquire as to what brought on this [rant]? Like MaxQ, I have only ever seen Gandhi's name spelt this way. Ditto for Gujarat. I do have to admit to the common pronunciation of "Gandhi" even though I have known for yonks that it isn't pronounced that way in India (or by other speakers of more inflected languages). But that really affects only the pronunciation of the "a". I have never heard anyone pronounce the "i" to rhyme with "tie".
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#25567
04/01/2001 11:29 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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My sweet shanks, I am with you and Max 100%. A person's name is their very own, and no one has the right to make
arbitrary changes to it. I, like Max, have an unusual spelling of my first name, and the more common spelling does not set me off--but being shortened to "Jack" does!
Grr-rr! I have, in my time, acquired pet names, which I adore because they are a sign of affection. I have also
(back in school, mostly) acquired some uncomplimentary monikers.
I have seen Mr. Gandhi's name spelled Ghandi. I suspect U.S.'ns are less concerned with things of former UK colonies that UK'ans are [going out on a limb e]. I heartily agree that a cavalier attitude towards someone's
name is disrespectful, to say the least. And, Sweetie, your post did not seem to me to be full of "vehemence, nay even naked aggression, intemperance and vitriol". But I am sorry that you have had to deal with this upsetting situation.
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#25568
04/01/2001 1:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
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Likewise, I have not seen Gandhi spelled otherwise (or maybe more accurately, if I have, it didn't hit a button with me). I feel the need to echo Cap'n Krunch's query as to "What brought this on?", although I understand the sensation of being that camel under that final straw. And as is the case of some copy editor who found it appropriate to label a point on a map of Southern California "San Dieago", recent census statistics indicate a population boom in Simpletonia. cheer right back atcha, sunshine
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#25569
04/01/2001 2:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
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Hey Max Am not in a position to do recordings etc right now - and in any case, after so many years, my accent will probably sound too anglicised for genuine speakers of Hindi etc. My guess is that Avy might be a better candidate - I, sight unseen (or hearing unlistened?) would ouch for the probably definitiveness of her pronunciation. As for the 2-0 nonsense (and the unfortunate evangelist who's taken us over) let's wait until next weekend when the real match is played. (Knowing my luck I'll be burying my head even further in the sand... ) cheer the sunshine warrior ps. Gujarati, not Gujarathi, is the standard I use.
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#25570
04/01/2001 2:19 PM
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Posts: 1,004
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Like Pompeii I have (in my own mind at least - where I am legend, for I am many ) long been simmering over this issue. On re-reading a 'teenage' book I thoroughly enjoy, I noticed the protagonist using the Ghandi spelling. Also, alas, I have noticed (and I cannot now remember where) a number of otherwise authoritative sources using this spelling, as also the Gujerat variant, particularly over the past year or so (my noticing them, that is). So it just boiled over. But hey, does one need a reason for a good, long rant? Think of it merely as a case of spontaneous combustion - inexplicable but bloody hot. cheer the sunshine warrior
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#25571
04/01/2001 2:22 PM
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Posts: 1,004
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Aye, Suryaputri my love, the emotion lasted only a brief while. Long enough, however, for me to start writing my li'l diatribe. As for the vitriol etc, it was meant as a bit of self-deprecatory April foolery, as also to defuse any unintentional concern, anxiety, sensitivity or pain I might have caused.
Yours, as always
the singing ("...but pc, always pc") in the rainer
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#25572
04/01/2001 4:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Why not send a note to The Great and Wise Anu ... perhaps his Lady With The Lovely Voice could do the pronunciation as she does for A Word A Day.
??????????
wow
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#25573
04/01/2001 4:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Excellent idea, wow!
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#25574
04/01/2001 5:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Mom was born in Norway, arrived after WWII, and chose the spelling " Osa" for her first name. This was as close as she could get to mirror the actual pronunciation of the Norsk spelling " Asse" (the A has a circle over it), but even still misses the true sound. You can see why she changed it. 
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#25575
04/01/2001 5:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86
journeyman
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journeyman
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I am (metaphorically, of course) standing, applauding vigourously, shouting "Bravo" to Shanks and "Amen" (for various reasons) to Max, CapK, and Jackie et al. We are all agreed on the respect that should be accorded names, in use, spelling and pronunciation. I'm with the others in never having heard the final "i" in "Gandhi" pronounced to rhyme w/ "tie". While, hitherto, I've had few occasions, for whatever reasons or deficiencies, to write or speak of "Gandhi", henceforth I shall be certain to do so properly, as per your helpful discourse (not,as others have mentioned as well, a "rant"). However, what I particularly wish to commend, Mr. Shanks, is your facility w/ words, your skill and talent in writing, your well-articulated reasoning and persuasive powers of argument ( as I have noted heretofore). Do dilettanti ever aspire to the Bar? You exhibit a number of the requisite skills, but your interests may lie elsewhere.
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#25576
04/02/2001 1:00 AM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 724
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> My guess is that Avy might be a better candidate - I, sight unseen (or hearing
unlistened?) would ouch for the probably definitiveness of her pronunciation.
Oi Yaara! Your ouch is correct - my pronunciation is definitive with no "probably" in front of it, but ... I ain't got no recording gizmo. (Thank god says she who suffers from stage fright)
I too hate it when my (real) name is mispronounced. When pronounced the right way, I feel the way my name sounds - beautiful. And when pronounced wrong I feel the way it sounds - awful.
A close equivalent to the pronunciation of "DH" in Gandhi is the "th" in "the"
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#25577
04/02/2001 1:18 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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ps. Gujarati, not Gujarathi, is the standard I use.
Thanks. I have always pronounced it as Gujarati, but spelled it with the "h" a hangover from my from my infatuation with German and its aspirated "t"s, I guess.
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#25578
04/02/2001 1:39 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 163
member
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member
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Just a question. Several years ago, Peking was changed to Beijing for English speakers and writers at least. Could one of the issues be the desire to try to make the spelling close to how a native of the area would pronounce it regardless of the conventions of decades or centuries. Perhaps, not wanting to appear to Anglo-centric and not sensitive enough to the concerns of the locals. (In either case I think it is a bit silly. I doubt many French people resent that the Germans call la France das Frankreich or Austrians who mind that the English call their country Austria when they know it as das Osterreich.) Is it this sort of idea behind the new spelling cropping up of that famous person's name?
Now an annectdote, possibly apochryphal. A Canadian wrote to the OED people to complain that the listed pronunciation for Newfoundland was incorrect. The correct pronunciation sounds like "new-fund-land" (sorry, I don't know, or understand, all those fancy symbols used to show pronunciation) while the dictionary listed it as the equivalent of "new-FOUND-land". The editors' response was that in all cases they tried to show the pronunciation as a native would say it, and that was how a native of Oxford pronounced it.
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#25579
04/02/2001 3:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Well put, Shanks.
Add me to the list of those with a name which people insist on mispronouncing. To exacerbate it, they then insist on altering the spelling to match the mispronunciation. That persistent problem is what prompted me to this year's April Fool's joke, which I mention under Dr Bill's Win a Million Dollars thread. I sent joke letters to the five members of the bar whose last name is spelled the way everyone insists mine is spelled.
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#25580
04/02/2001 7:35 AM
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Posts: 1,004
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Oh priye Ooops. It should have been vouch. I am too principled (yeah, right) to go back and edit, so will live with that blot on the 'scutcheon. As for the 'th' pronunciation - I think I said something like that in my initial post. The problem, in part, is that the Indian 'standard' pronunciation of 'the' is distinct from the British RP one. In India, if I remember rightly, it is pronounced like the 'th' in dal. But even that is surely different from the 'dh' in 'Radha or Gandhi? cheer the sunshine warrior 'Radha kyon gori, mein kyon kaala?
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#25581
04/02/2001 7:40 AM
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Posts: 1,004
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Now who will bell the cat? Max? Jackie?
cheer
the sunshine warrior
"Echo answers: where?"
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#25582
04/02/2001 7:54 AM
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Posts: 1,004
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Hey Rouspetur Just a question. Several years ago, Peking was changed to Beijing for English speakers and writers at least. Could one of the issues be the desire to try to make the spelling close to how a native of the area would pronounce it regardless of the conventions of decades or centuries. Perhaps, not wanting to appear to Anglo-centric and not sensitive enough to the concerns of the locals. (In either case I think it is a bit silly. I doubt many French people resent that the Germans call la France das Frankreich or Austrians who mind that the English call their country Austria when they know it as das Osterreich.)I suspect that there is a distinction between names always written in Roman (no matter what the language) and those which are only transcribed into it - from, say, Chinese or Hindi or Arabic. Certainly I would find it strange to call the basics of mathematics Al-jibr (al-muqabla), after the original Arabic phrase from which we get algebra, but that is quite distinct from a given name. Where names like Frankreich or Osterreich are used (or even the Netherlands, 'Dutch' or l'Angleterre) it is because there is primarily a convention of description in the related European languages - denoting the lands of the angles, the franks, and so on. So they are not different ways of spelling/pronouncing the same word - but rather descriptions in different languages of the same thing. With a name like Beijing, on the other hand, since Peking was an early (and rather flawed) attempt at rendering the sound in English, I suspect that if the Chinese themselves are certain that Beijing does it better, we can have no cause for argument - they are supposed to be the same word, after all. It is not like the seemingly endless changing of the names of Stalingrad-Petrograd and its ilk. Is it this sort of idea behind the new spelling cropping up of that famous person's name?To be honest, I don't the spelling is new. As far as I am aware Gandhi (who did take his law degree in London, and was fluently literate in English) always spelled his name this way. Now an annectdote, possibly apochryphal. A Canadian wrote to the OED people to complain that the listed pronunciation for Newfoundland was incorrect. The correct pronunciation sounds like "new-fund-land" (sorry, I don't know, or understand, all those fancy symbols used to show pronunciation) while the dictionary listed it as the equivalent of "new-FOUND-land". The editors' response was that in all cases they tried to show the pronunciation as a native would say it, and that was how a native of Oxford pronounced it.Excellent!  To be honest (and I don't know which dictionary I got this from), I have always pronounced it NEWf'ndl'nd (the ' representing the schwa). cheer the sunshine ("read my lips: s-u-n-s-h-i-n-e") warrior
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#25583
04/02/2001 8:29 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
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Dunno - but I can tell you that their mothers do on their behalf - or at least mine did. I managed to avoid that fate by sidling into that happy haven for dilettanti - the liberal arts. Stuffed full of Eng Lit, Philo, Psych, feeble attempts at Eco and Mathematical Analysis, no knowledge of Sanskrit, Japan or India (even though I took those opttions), I emerged about five years later (a few detours along the way), with a beer belly and some bad poetry to show for it. Those were the days my friends... cheer the sunshine warrior "Nostalgia is the future"
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#25584
04/02/2001 11:13 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Now who will bell the cat?
I just did. But I won't hold my breath.
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#25585
04/02/2001 12:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I'm with Uppercase Gooseberry and The Fibress here. As a poor benighted US'n, I have never seen it spelled Ghandi. I have heard it pronounced in a variety of ways. I think expecting someone not brought up with the proper pronunciation of the dh phomene is expecting a bit much, but one should make some effort to pronounce names correctly, at least if one is in a position that makes one's pronunciation widely heard. I have similar problems when I hear the name Chechnya pronounced CHECH-nee-ya. The proper pronunciation would be, at least in Russian, something more like ch'ch-NYA. I will accept chech-NYA, which is the pronunciation Anne Garrels of NPR uses.
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#25586
04/02/2001 2:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Shanks ... this is not directly on thread ... forgive the digression ... but could you help me out with the correct quote ?
Here is the thing : At the New York World's Fair in April 1964 I had the pleasure of visiting the beautiful India Pavillion and carved into the wall beside the door was a quote from Gandhi which I remember as follows :
"There go my people. I must hurry and catch them up, as I am their leader."
It is so succinct and perfect that I have often (mis)quoted it.
Any help greatly appreciated.
As another aside, the Irish Pavillion was next door and we had a great afternoon introducing our new friends from India to the glories of Irish coffee.
wow
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#25587
04/03/2001 8:22 AM
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Posts: 1,004
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Wow
I'm afariad I haven't a clue. Yahoo searches throw up much about him - but their quotation sections are not easy to search. Perhaps you'll have more patience than I?
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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#25588
04/03/2001 9:14 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18
stranger
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stranger
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Most of us in India learnt even Asian names the way it is spelt by the English. Till recently books used to carry `Mao Se-Tung', but now most books here spell it as `Mao Ze-Dong'.
Off the topic: `Must a name mean something?' Alice asked doubtfully. `Of course it must,' Humpty Dumpty said with a short laugh: `my name means the shape I am -- and a good handsome shape it is, too. With a name like your, you might be any shape, almost.' Lewis Carroll - `Through the Looking Glass'.
Manoj
Bangalore India
12°58' N, 77°39' E
http://www.geocities.com/kummini/index.html
Bangalore India
12°58' N, 77°39' E
http://www.geocities.com/kummini/index.html
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#25589
04/03/2001 10:23 AM
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Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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. Till recently books used to carry `Mao Se-Tung', but now most books here spell it as `Mao Ze-Dong'
If I remember it right, the Chinese standardised Latin spellings of the words of written Chinese in the 1970s as part of an effort to make the Latin alphabet the standard--or second standard--for the written language. That is, these spellings were introduced by the Beijing government as part of a literacy campaign in China. ("Written Chinese" because a former board member informed--by way of correcting--me that spoken Chinese doesn't exist.)
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#25590
04/03/2001 10:27 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 11,613 |
`Must a name mean something?'
kummini, do any of your names have a meaning that you'd care to share? Mine means "The Supplanter".
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#25591
04/03/2001 12:28 PM
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
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addict
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would ouch for the probably definitiveness of her pronunciation.
Any more examples of compliments being turned into the opposite by a typo? Or was it deliberate?
In general I agree with the sentiments expressed. One should try to get names right (i.e. as the owner desires) in spelling and pronounciation, although some "foreign" sounds can sound false and forced in a "home" context, and might justifiably be modified, slightly. One has to make exceptions for honest mistakes and typos however.
I am having difficulty in hearing the difference between the "n" in "answer" and "anthrax" apart from the preceding vowel sound. As far as I can tell my tongue hits the same place. I might have a coarse ear as well as a coarse mind, though.
Rod
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#25592
04/03/2001 1:09 PM
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Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I am having difficulty in hearing the difference between the "n" in "answer" and "anthrax"
hmm...never really thought about that, so I tried it out. My tongue lightly touches my teeth for "anthrax," and somewhere on or just behind or, probably, on the "dental ridge(?)" for "answer." The difference in sound is very slight.
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#25593
04/03/2001 1:58 PM
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Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
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Hi Rod and David
Since you asked, let me try a brief trotting out of my understanding of the differences in sounds (to Northern Indian ears at least) that n or m (as we have them) would take.
Basically, in languages using Devanagari (Sanskrit, Hindi, Marathi), there are five different nasal sounds. Four of them sound like our n (in different contexts) and the fifth is represented by our m.
Each nasal sound 'attaches' to a set of four consonants (unvoiced, unvoiced aspirated/plosive, voiced, voiced aspirated/plosive), so that 20 consonants are involved in total. (There are a further 5-10 consonants in the script, but these do not get conjoined to preceding nasal sounds - s, sh, r, h, l, y, v etc).
I'll try to illustrate by providing as closely as possible, English words for these twenty consonants (with the nasal tone preceding). For some, blank brackets ( ) will indicate no English equivalent, and (full) brackets will indicate the consonant, but no nasal conjunction (I couldn't think of one).
Set1:
Anchor, (loch), anger, "Unghh"
Set2:
Crunch, (achhoo), injury, ( )
Set3:
Anther, ( ), (the), ( )
Set4:
Inter, ( ), under, ( )
Set5:
Umpire, amphora, umbrage, ( )
You will notice, if you observe yourself making these sounds, that the first is a sort of 'ng', the second is almost unpronounced - think Hispanic 'n' with the tilde on top, the third is the classic 'n' of nose or nanny, and the fourth is slightly less pronounced (pun intended) than the third. The fifth, of course, is our classic 'm'.
The point about ordering the sets of consonants in this way (as they are when taught to students of the language) is that each successive set is produced from further forward in the mouth (apart of the slight anomaly of Set4 which uses a flick of the tongue). Starting with the 'k' sequence back near the uvula, to the purely labial 'p'.
Hope this helps.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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#25594
04/03/2001 2:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Where is Alexander Graham Bell when you need him?
wow
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#25595
04/03/2001 3:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18 |
<font color=blue>
Set1:
Anchor, (loch), anger, "Unghh"
Set2:
Crunch, (achhoo), injury, ( )
Set3:
Anther, ( ), (the), ( )
Set4:
Inter, ( ), under, ( )
Set5:
Umpire, amphora, umbrage, ( )
</font>
Shanks has given a good introduction to sounds in Sanskrit and related Indian languages. Let me add some comments.
Set 1 nasal sound is something like, even stronger than, what Greek eta (`n' with the long tail :-)) sounds like in IPA.
Set 3 and Set 4 have been wrogly labelled. First comes `t' and then, `th' as in `thin'
The second sound in Set 5 is not `f'. I cannot find a way to express that, but the closest I can get is to say: Do the same thing one does to `k' in `loch' to `p'.
Manoj
Bangalore India
12°58' N, 77°39' E
http://www.geocities.com/kummini/index.html
Bangalore India
12°58' N, 77°39' E
http://www.geocities.com/kummini/index.html
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#25596
04/03/2001 3:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18 |
kummini, do any of your names have a meaning that you'd care to share? Mine means "The Supplanter".
`Manoj' has something to do with `being as fast as mind' .
Manoj.
Bangalore India
12°58' N, 77°39' E
http://www.geocities.com/kummini/index.html
Bangalore India
12°58' N, 77°39' E
http://www.geocities.com/kummini/index.html
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#25597
04/04/2001 12:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 275
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 275 |
How about Rabindranath Tagore, how is Tagore pronounced?
chronist
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#25598
04/04/2001 7:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
Manoj Thanks for those observations. I thought I'd interchanged the order of sets 3 and 4. Ah well... it's been some twenty years since I last wrote Hindi in anger . As for the 'f' sound, you are absolutely right - there is no Hindi equivalent of English/Roman 'f', and sometimes it is best to represent the sound by 'ph'. For those interested, it consists of a purely labial sound - no tongue or teeth involved, but instead of the plosive 'p', it's 'hissed' through the lips to sound (at least to Western ears) a lot like 'f'. It is unvoiced. For completion's sake, there is no exact analogue of either v or w in Hindi, the sound that stands in for both of them being the voiced equivalent of the 'ph' described above. Another way of looking at it is to try pronouncing your f and v with your lower lip against your upper lip instead of against your upper teeth. Requires a great deal more lip control, and will always sound different, but will sound (with practice) a great deal more authentic to Indian ears. cheer the sunshine warrior
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#25599
04/04/2001 8:05 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
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How about Rabindranath Tagore, how is Tagore pronounced?This one may stir up some controversy. To begin with, it is worth reiterating the fact that India is akin to a continent like Europe - many different, but often inter-related, cultures and languages existing side by side (and in crowded cities, on top of each other ). So a 'standard' for pronunciation in one language is not necessarily the same as the standard in another. Gandhi was a relatively safe word because it is pronounced virtually the same in both Hindi (the 'big' language) and Gujarati (Gandhi's native language). Things are different with my name (for instance), since my 'mother tongue' is Malayalam. In English, I prnounce it ra-vee. In Hindi it would be closer to r'[v]ee (with the ' indicating a schwa as described for Guj arati earlier, and [v] representing the v/w sound Manoj and I have discussed below). In Malayalam, however, it would sound more like Ray-wee. The problem, then, with Tagore, is that whilst he is a legendary national figure in India, and hence has a conventionally developed pronunciation (t'gore), this is not necessarily that used in his native Bengali. I was very close to a Bengali family in Bombay for many years, and I was told (and I hope authoritatively) that in Bengal, because Tagore was a logomorph (IMIU) of the Hindi Thakur (landlord), the name would actually be pronounced that way: tthaakur. The 'tth' is an attempt to represent the plosive 't' sound described in the post on nasal sounds, whilst the 'aa' is simply the long a of part (RP). Always remember, also, that in most Indian languages, the 'r's are prodigiously rolled like they are in Spanish. Come on everybody, give me an rrrr Hope this helps. cheer the sunshine warrior
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#25600
04/04/2001 11:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771 |
shanks encouraged: Come on everybody, give me an rrrrSorry, shanks. You seem to have taken a wrong turn at yahoo... you want to take a *right* at yahoo, climb over ebay, and you'll find the Pirate Chat just past the Hello Kitty home page, on the left.
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#25601
04/04/2001 11:44 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
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...but do I have to fly until morning? (You know how these long haul trips are heck on diapers... ) cheer the sunshine ("Smee can you hear the tick tock?") warrior
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#25602
04/04/2001 8:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508
addict
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addict
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508 |
hmm...never really thought about that, so I tried it out. My tongue lightly touches my teeth for "anthrax," and somewhere on or just behind or, probably, on the "dental ridge(?)" for "answer." The difference in sound is very slight
Since I know zilch about linguistics I'm admittedly way out of my depth here, but it seems to me that the placement of the tongue is "attached" to the sound that follows (th or s), not to the n sound. Or is it not possible to isolate the n sound from the surrounding letters?
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#25603
04/05/2001 11:05 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
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it seems to me that the placement of the tongue is "attached" to the sound that follows (th or s), not to the n sound. Or is it not possible to isolate the n sound from the surrounding letters?
Bingo! Nancy you've hit the nail on the head. It is, indeed, impossible to isolate the nasal sound from the surrounding letters, hence from the particular position of the tongue. Whilst the practice is not common inEnglish, in languages like Hindi, people learn to pronounce, and distinguish between, all these 'n' sounds. Nobody from India would mistake the anther n (even when pronounced separately), from the under n. And so on.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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