#25380
04/10/2001 5:09 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Rhuby Responds: As to "Brown shoes" - in the UK, the first military aviators were army officers, with khaki uniform and brown shoes. I believe it was the same in the USA ... Did the USAAF fly from naval ships for a while, before the Naval air forces were formed? This would account a term for the strangely uniformed fellows mixed in with the blue-uniformed navy people.
Shoe color varied depending on the uniform worn. Petty officers and below invariably wore black shoes, regardless of rating. Chief petty officers wore brown or black depending on the uniform. There was a blue uniform and a khaki uniform. Officers had dress whites which took white shoes but they also had the blue and khaki uniforms which took black and brown shoes respectively. Your suggestion that the name may derive from WWII Army Air Force personnel sounds as good as anything else I have heard, but I couldn't confirm or deny the existence of Army fliers on Naval ships.
|
|
|
#25381
04/11/2001 12:31 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
TAFF as nautical nickname for UK sailors
I haven't heard Taff as a general nickname in that way, but my exposure to UK navy is slight, despite living in Portsmouth (UK). (As an aside the phrase "Pompey Defence" refers to someone, when charged with assault, claiming that the injured party had made an improper suggestion "Hullo, Sailor", etc. The phrase nowadays also refers to the non-existant back row in the local soccer team).
Taff or Taffy is a general nickname for Welshmen, after the River Taff and surrounding area. Maybe there were just a lot of Welshmen on those particular ships.
But I would like to know if Taff has wider usage, indicating a rank or whatever.
Rod
|
|
|
#25382
04/11/2001 1:44 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144
member
|
|
member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144 |
Speaking of lines - we discussed sheets, etc. - there are actually quite a few different types of lines.
sheets - line used to haul sails
shrouds - main lines used in the rigging
_________________________________________________
Sorry Hyla, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on the subject of shrouds. Shrouds are static rigging - ie, they are used to hold the mast up and to induce certain bend characteristics into the mast to achieve the otpimum sail shape and gust response for the conditions. Because of this, they cannot be likened to sheets or halyards, which are running rigging.
Some other more 'slang-like' nautical terms would be:
'Honking Billy' - when the wind is absolutely howling
'Like being in a washing machine' - when you've got really nasty confused chop that is impossible to read and is bashing you around the place
'Going up the beat like a ferret up a drainpipe' - a particularly fine piece of nautical terminology coined by the ex-UK olympic coach - basically meaning that you were going up the beat extremely fast!
'tea-bagging' - a particularly unpleasant experience for any trapeze crew, involving your helm deciding to dunk you in the water for no apparent reason.
'cow-boying' - pushing your luck on the race course.
'doing a horizon job' - winning by a vast distance
|
|
|
#25383
04/11/2001 3:11 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
Very strong winds have recently been described in the RN as, "blowing a hooligan." I have also heard this term from non-naval sources, as well.
|
|
|
#25384
04/11/2001 3:21 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Taff or Taffy is a general nickname for Welshmen, after the River Taff and surrounding area. Maybe there were just a lot of Welshmen on those particular ships.
That may have been true of the "Minerva" as HRH Charles, the Prince of Wales was aboard. However we are talking about five or six ships which visited Portsmouth NH, (USA) and all used the "Taff" appelation.
When I visited the Medway area in UK I heard the term used frequently in relation to seamen in the Royal Navy.
wow
|
|
|
#25385
04/11/2001 3:40 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
Taff as general nickname for UK sailors, all or some
I believe you Ann, and am trying to track the reason, but no luck so far. However while searching I did find "Sharky - Navy nickname for all Wards". Since I have just been invested with a new shiny crown on a tooth this may be appropriate.
Update: Please will some of you good people reassure me that you also have, or know people who have, or at least have heard of other people who have, D'oh moments like I just had. It wasn't till I was just going to sleep hours after making the original post that I remembered my aunt on my Father's side, so her maiden name (until she married aged 63!) was also Ward. She was in the Womens Royal Naval Service=Wrens in WWII, and from 15 to 5 years ago had a dog called Sharky. I just thought it was any old canine name until now, but now presume it was from the naval nickname. I will ask her next time I see her (and also ask her about Taff). Unfortunately she suffers from a peculiar set of memory problems now, so it may take some delicate probing.
And I have some other contacts I will ask about Taff as well.
Sharky
|
|
|
#25386
04/11/2001 5:07 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
shrouds - main lines used in the rigging
_________________________________________________
Sorry Hyla, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on the subject of shrouds. Shrouds are static rigging - ie, they are used to hold the mast up and to induce certain bend characteristics into the mast to achieve the otpimum sail shape and gust response
for the conditions.
I think we're saying the same thing - that the shrouds are the heavier, vertical lines used as the backbone of the rigging, and thus are not hauled on, as sheets are. Sorry if I wasn't clear - I should also make clear that my knowledge of such things comes from extensive reading of historical fiction about the age of sail, rather than any affinity for and experience with the act of sailing itself. So I'm at least one step removed from what really happens with all them pieces of rope.
Brings to mind the character in the movie Metropolitan, who consistently critiques Jane Austen, and when asked if he had ever read her, says he doesn't need to - he reads literary criticism.
|
|
|
#25387
04/11/2001 5:36 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Speaking of lines - we discussed sheets, etc"Hello, sailor," often works for...well it often works!! 
|
|
|
#25388
04/11/2001 5:40 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
when asked if he had ever read her, says he doesn't need to - he reads literary criticism.
A bunch of years ago now, an article appeared--I don't remember where--that referred to the kind of literary talk that culls all its information from book reviews "bull crit."
|
|
|
#25389
04/11/2001 6:52 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
IP wrote : "Hello, sailor," often works for...well it often works!! ---------------------------------------------------------- Really gave my son (Major, Army Reserves) a "start" when I walked up to him, unnoticed, at a restaurant lounge and standing slightly behind him, whispered in my sexiest voice, "Hi, Soldier, buy a Lady a drink?" He bought me the drink AND paid my dinner check, too! So it apears it will work. Anyone done any "research" on this concerning those serving in any other nation's Armed Forces? {chuckling madly} wow
|
|
|
#25390
04/11/2001 6:54 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
IP wrote : "Hello, sailor," often works for...well it often works!! ---------------------------------------------------------- Really gave my son (Major, Army Reserves) a "start" when I walked up to him, unnoticed, at a restaurant lounge and standing slightly behind him, whispered in my sexiest voice, "Hi, Soldier, buy a Lady a drink?" He bought me the drink AND paid my dinner check, too! So it apears it will work. Anyone done any "research" on this concerning those serving in any other nation's Armed Forces? {cackling madly} wow Anyplace else use "start" to mean a surprise, overlaid with a momentary shock while a thousand reasons/responses run through your mind?
|
|
|
#25391
04/11/2001 7:11 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Start--as in a short hand of startled-- sure I know that-- and use start the same way.
I used to work for a consulting company, with had a major Dutch bank as an account. My son worked for an other computer service company, and had the same Dutch bank as a client.
One day, one of the Exec. VP at the bank, hosted a party, and invited the consultants.. I found my self sitting at the bar, and looked about-- 20 feet away in a booth, was my son. I walked over, gave him a kiss, and introduced my self to the others in the booth-- ("Hi I'm Benjamin's mom" )-- none believed me, and my son gave me a pained look-- Benjamin bought me a drink, and i returned to sitting with my own work mates-- who thought it hillarious that we were both at the same party.
|
|
|
#25392
04/11/2001 7:24 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
A phrase with which our military friends who served in Viet Nam (and, possibly, Korea) should be familiar is now used by a certain bridge partner and myself. When partner or I put down an especially fortunate dummy hand (given the bidding and the declarer's own hand), we are known to tell the other, "Love you long time." 
|
|
|
#25393
04/11/2001 10:16 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
Bringing together the "start" discussion and nautical terms - in the age of sail, the bosun and his mates would use rattan canes or knotted ropes to "start" hands that were slow to move when orders were given - giving them a good whack to get them going.
Ah, the good old days of management.
|
|
|
#25394
04/11/2001 11:52 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear tsuwm: can you tell us which one of these opinions is correct?
"One word that is said to have arisen from travelling by sea is `posh'. I read in a book, on British rule in India, that it is an abbreviation for `portside outward starboard homeword' to signify the best rooms in the ship to avoid the heat while travelling from Europe to Asia and back. However, the M-W Online Dictionary says that the etymology is unknown, and the word appeared in 1918."
This is from Mike & Melanie, at the Burnside site:
"Believe it or not, we have been waiting years for someone to ask this question as pal is one of the very few English words which derives from Romany (posh is another)."
|
|
|
#25395
04/12/2001 1:24 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Dear tsuwm: can you tell us which one of these opinions is correct?He did. The thread can be read at: http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=1717. Q&A, thread title Often, posted June 2, 00. ======================================================== tsuwm (enthusiast) Wed Jun 14 23:29:57 2000 Re: posh -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- elegant, fashionable, fancy (slangy) there is an interesting story behind the origin of posh-- http://quinion.com/words/qa/qa-pos1.htm=========================================================== Well-I could not get this link to work, but this one should: http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-pos1.htm==================================================Re: sailors called taffs--this is reminding me of my barrow-boy guess, but could it be because of the association with salt-water taffy?
|
|
|
#25396
04/12/2001 1:41 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
First some terms:
Sea-legs: the wobbly state of one's legs after disembarking from time spent on the water (in boat or ship). Which, of course, leads to "just getting his sea-legs" referring to a virgin voyage or a novice sailor. And, then, to
"come on and get your sea-legs," an idiom akin to "breaking the ice" or "taking the plunge"... encouraging someone to do something for the first time.
Tack: to change the direction of a sailing ship by turning the bow to the wind and shifting the sails; the direction of a ship in relation to the trim of its sails. Also the rope that holds in place the lower corner of a course on a sailing ship; and the corner of the sail to which a tack is fastened. (And a myriad of other variations of meaning for nautical action and hardware (on a sailing ship)..Hence the word "tacky"?
Nautical slang: My father served in the Navy in the South Pacific in WWII (Navy Corspman), and I've heard him, countless times, use the terms "swab," "swabs," or "swabbies" in referring to sailors (the low-ranking midshipmen, I presume). After "swabbing the deck"...mopping the deck.
And, since the term at the end of this sentence hasn't appeared, it proves you're all just a bunch of LANDLUBBERS!
Well, that's all I have to add to the list at this point, except for "list"...as in "listing," taking on water in the process of sinking.
|
|
|
#25397
04/12/2001 1:46 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
yeah, it's one of those urban legend sort of stories that just won't go away, because it makes such a good story. actually®, it appeared quite a bit before 1918, as you will see from the OED citations. I think that the notion that it may have just evolved from earlier heteronyms has much merit.
Of obscure origin, but cf. posh n.2 The suggestion that this word is derived from the initials of ‘port outward, starboard home’, referring to the more expensive side for accommodation on ships formerly travelling between England and India, is often put forward but lacks foundation. The main objections to this derivation are listed by G. Chowdharay-Best in Mariner's Mirror (1971) Jan. 91–2. [having, I assume, primarily to do with the dates]
[1903 Wodehouse Tales of St. Austin's 37 That waistcoat+being quite the most push thing of the sort in Cambridge.] 1918 Punch 25 Sept. 204 Oh, yes, Mater, we had a posh time of it down there. 1923 Wodehouse Inimitable Jeeves vii. 72 Practically every posh family in the country has called him in at one time or another.
posh.n.2 - [App. thieves' slang (cf. Romany posh half).]
1. slang. Money; spec. a halfpenny; a coin of small value.
2. slang. A dandy. Perh. a different word.
1890 Barrère & Leland Dict. Slang II. 146/2 Posh,+a dandy. [1892 G. & W. Grossmith Diary of Nobody 197 Frank+said+he had a friend waiting outside for him, named Murray Posh, adding he was quite a swell.]
|
|
|
#25398
04/12/2001 2:31 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Hyla wrote: >In the age of sail, at least in Europe, it was generally considered bad luck to have a woman on board ship.<
That's why the two notorious woman pirates, Mary Read and Anne Bonny, had to live disguised as men! Only their captain, Captain Calico Jack Rackham (and in Mary Read's case her pirate husband) knew the truth. (Anne was the Captain's mistress). And it was Anne Bonney who taunted Captain Jack at his hangin' with: "If you'd've come up and fought like a MAN, you wouldn't have to be hanged like a DOG!" Nice ladies.
Course, Grace O'Malley, the feared and fierce Irish pirate of the 16th century, captained her own ship...so she could dress any way she damn well wanted!
|
|
|
#25399
04/12/2001 3:09 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86 |
To WOW/Rodward (drifting leewardly?) In reply to:
Taff as nautical nickname for UK sailors
Taff or Taffy is a general nickname for Welshman, after the River Taff
Let's start w/ some additional info (facts?) and then segue quickly to some speculative faux- folk etymology seeking to link Ancient St. David, (7th Cent) the patron saint of Wales, to some latter day Welsh Mariners. First, some "facts" from my paper (no "goo-gooing around) copy of The Facts On File Dictionary Of First Names, quoting randomly from the entry "David"( which, not co-incidentally, happens to be my own "first" name.)
"Saint David (7th c.) became the patron saint of Wales and caused the name to be intensively used there at all times thereafter. ....Pet forms include Welsh Taffy, Dai, Davy". For "Taffy", cf. "Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief," etc.(and maybe a sailor as well?) And now for our faux-etymology. It seems a logical line from >St David > ST Davy >St Davy's Day> (and note, e.g. S's humourous treatment of Welsh accents w/ Fluellen in HenV -"P"s for "B"s and other mistaken initial consonants >Sint Davvy's Day and then an elided "D' replaced by the final "t" of Saint to arrive at "St Tavvy" and finally, but easily, logically, "Taffy". Query, which came first, "River Taff" or "Taffy" from the ancient, good St David. Who knows or cares, but that's why we have these discussions - a few facts twisted about w/ a bit of speculation seeking to answer some unanswerable Qs. We personify our breeds of warriors. ("Johnny" marching home from WWI and "GI Joe" in a foxhole in WWII. Perhaps a large number of Welsh sailors became, generically, "Taffies" during those centuries when (as even now?) Brittania ruled the waves. Now,( carefully replacing my paper volume to its familiar place) I shall leave it to the on-line researchers to verify or discredit my daffy etymology. ..... This is an "Edited Post" after-thought (or, as I call it, a Post-Scribble) I just remembered (about five minutes after posting the foregoing) that Shakespeare, in Hen V, has Fluellen say, somewhere, "f"alorous" meaning "v"alorous" "f" substituted for "v" as in "Davvy" becoming "Daffy" and the "t" of Saint sliding over the "D' of Davvy to become "Taffy". I don't know about you, but I have just convinced myself. .......
|
|
|
#25400
04/12/2001 7:38 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144
member
|
|
member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144 |
Very strong winds have recently been described in the RN as, "blowing a hooligan." I have also heard this term from non-naval sources, as well.
___________________________________________
Also:
blowing a hoolie
howling
honking
blowing old boots
the list could go on!
|
|
|
#25401
04/12/2001 8:47 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
Re: sailors called taffs--this is reminding me of my
barrow-boy guess, but could it be because of the association with salt-water taffy?
And on such delightful ideas are erudite etymologies founded. But I have never heard toffee called taffy in UK. Any other east siders care to comment?
And on "start". The knotted rope was called a "starter".
Rod
|
|
|
#25402
04/12/2001 8:53 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
for "list"...as in "listing," taking on water in the process of sinking
I know "list" as "lean, lean over" which might or might not involve taking on water. Can anyone confirm Whitman's more specific meaning?
Rod
|
|
|
#25403
04/12/2001 10:26 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
But I have never heard toffee called taffy in UK.
Ah--I had assumed (yet again--sigh) that the nickname Taff
had been assigned to the Brits by the U.S.'ns, but
having just re-read the originating post, I see that it ain't necessarily so. [berating self again e]
|
|
|
#25404
04/12/2001 1:29 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
There is an old nursery rhyme:"Taffy was a Welchman....."
|
|
|
#25405
04/12/2001 2:02 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Sea legs first: My take on this was always that sea legs referred more to the ability to walk steadily while on a rolling ship than on the inability to walk on steady land. My own experience in this matter was as follows:
My first time on the ship, a large and somewhat top heavy cruiser which rolled quite a bit in relatively calm seas, I had no problems walking steadily. When I first hit dry land after that first voyage I was a little wobbly. Subsequent transitions were totally uneventful.
I, too, had never heard that taking on water was necessary for listing. Sufficient, yes, necessary, no. Unbalanced cargo could cause the same condition.
|
|
|
#25406
04/12/2001 2:11 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Yes, rodward, the literal meaning of "list" is "to lean to one side"...but I have only heard it used in nautical terms when referring to a sinking ship...listing to starboard, listing heavily at the bow, she took on water slowly causing a heavy list to port before she rolled over and went down, etc.
And, how 'bout MATE, MATES, and MATEY!?...How did our voices from Down Under miss this one?
|
|
|
#25407
04/12/2001 2:30 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
rkay wrote: >"Very strong winds have been described in the RN as "blowing a hooligan."<
Living here on the coast we, and commercial fisherman and seaman, always refer to an approaching gale or
nor'easter by saying "looks like we're in for a big blow", or, " it looks like there's a big blow comin' up." Or simply,
"There's a blow comin' up."
There has also been some bantering in the local press of late as to whether the time-honored nautical slang, "nor'easter" should be scuttled in deference to the more proper "northeaster." I vote the former.
And a "nor'easter" is also the name for the special foul- weather gear a commercial fisherman or seaman wears on the Mid-Atlantic and New England coasts of the US.
|
|
|
#25408
04/12/2001 2:54 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
"nor'easter" is also the name for the special foul- weather gear
and on the the other side of the pond this is known as a "sou'wester". At least that is certainly a foul weather hat (like Paddington Bear wears - I had one as a child) and I think refers also to the rest of the gear. I wouldn't know if the gears are similar. Presumably if a sou'wester buttons down the front, a nor'easter buttons down the back?
Rod
|
|
|
#25409
04/12/2001 5:55 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
"nor'easter" is also the name for the special foul- weather gear
and on the the other side of the pond this is known as a "sou'wester".
US'ns call the storm a nor'easter because the winds (not the storm) come out of the northeast. This is because the storms track up the coast and we, being on the western edge, get the first winds from the notheast.
Do the UK'ns call the storm as well as the storm gear a sou'wester? And if so, is it because you are on the eastern edge of the storm?
|
|
|
#25410
04/12/2001 6:53 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Not nautical, but many oldtimers in New England believed the northeast winds caused their arthritis symptoms to be made more troublesome. One mildly odd character would not get out of bed if his weather vane indicated wind from northeast. So a boy tied a fine thread to his weathervane to keep it pointing to the northeast. The victim stayed in bed for over a week, allegedly.
|
|
|
#25411
04/12/2001 7:38 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Yes, rodward, the literal meaning of "list" is "to lean to one side"...but I have only heard it used in nautical terms when referring to a sinking ship
I once read a maritime adventure based on a fact that spoke of a vessel being towed some hundreds of miles to Halifax while listing 30 or 60 degrees. It's not my impression that "to list" refers to the ship going down at all, even though listing heavily would probably lead to it.
|
|
|
#25412
04/12/2001 9:29 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
rodward wrote in reference to "nor'easter": >At least that is certainly a foul-weather hat."
The term may pertain exclusively to the hat or head-gear seaman don for stormy weather...I seem to remember a picture describing "an old salt..there's another one, "OLD SALT!"...wearing his nor'easter" as a head shot.
And it's interesting that it's called a "sou'wester" on the other side of the pond!
|
|
|
#25413
04/12/2001 9:46 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
And, how 'bout MATE, MATES, and MATEY!?...How did our voices from Down Under miss this one
Good question. "Matey" is not much used here, but thee was a TV ad, (from OZ, I think) shown here in which "mate" was almost the only word spoken.
|
|
|
#25414
04/12/2001 9:52 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
inselpeter wrote: >It's not my impression that "to list" refers to the ship going down at all, even though listing heavily would probably lead to it.<
Are we getting bogged down in the semantics of image here? If a ship is taking on water causing it "to lean" or "to list" it is then "in the process of sinking"...no, it doesn't actually have to sink all the way...but it has sunken to a degree. How else to convey the word "list" in the context of the image? If a boat is "listing" at the bow, it is then sinking at the bow...is it not? Is a boat ever listing because it is not-sinking? Can anybody else help "bail me out"?...There we go!...If a boat is taking on water you bail it out because it is sinking...if you bail fast enough it won't actually sink...but while you are bailing the boat it certainly is in the process of sinking. And suddenly I'm thinking of R.D. Laing's "Knots"! I'll swim off toward my life-raft now...
|
|
|
#25415
04/13/2001 1:40 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Faldage wrote about "listing": >Unbalanced cargo could cause the same condition.<
True. A shift in cargo or other factors could cause a vessel to list. Many of the clammers (clam boats) in this area have that problem because of the regulations...they are only allowed to go out at certain times and tend to overload...so many of them go down when the clam-cargo shifts in the hold (not to say that a boat HAS to go down when the cargo shifts, guys!) But, actually, I've lost a few friends that way. I just thought the image of a foundering or sinking ship was the classic example of the word list or listing. I see, now, that literalism is part of the fun of the wordplay here...I'll make a note of that.
And all this semantical dissection of "listing" brought this to mind, so here it is:
Can a submarine sink if it's already submerged? Or at the bottom? Do we need a new word? Or do we need to say "losing air," "lost air," or "lost all air" instead?
|
|
|
#25416
04/13/2001 4:54 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Re: Whitman'o's insisting, listing takes on water
***
No! A ship will list if her ballast shifts and still keep all her scuppernongs dry if unlikely. But look, we're pushing a dead bull up a hill with a rope and a blue ball, or is that what ~presidents are not elected to do?
On a lighter note (?), tonight is one of those nights you'd drown in here in summer--not yet pea soup, but a fine, rolling mist, which brings me to brass tacks. Is "pea soup" a nautical turn--I learned it on a gaf rigger off the Massachusetts shore and also to call "suds" the Balatine Ale that might as well have been. Nonce nauticals, or nauticals in blood and salt? We were still well south of rough water and the Reef of Norman's Woe. If I'd a story to tell surpassing one line, I'd draw a yarn of it like pulling taffy and keep it to myself so all them could wonder that wouldn't.
|
|
|
#25417
04/13/2001 5:06 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Can a submarine sink if it's already submerged? Or at the bottom? Do we need a new word? Or do we need to say "losing air," "lost air," or "lost all air" instead?(First of all, precision and "literal" are not the same, [hurumph emoticon]  ) But to the point: my guess, which is subject to amendment, would be that as long she's buoyant, she's afloat; that is, there's no substantial difference between a vessel on the surface or one below so long as each is buoyant. Do you say a ship is sunk when you can't see the red of her keel? If she's resting on the bottom, she can't go down, so she can't sink. She floods or is crushed. In my mind the question is, what's the status of a submarine resting on the ocean floor? Or not what by why.
|
|
|
#25418
04/13/2001 6:34 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Oh, I get it, inselpeter...this is your little frat hazing for me, right?
|
|
|
#25419
04/13/2001 10:47 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Oh, I get it, inselpeter...this is your little frat hazing for me, right?W'O: I tell you honestly it wasn't, even though I'm not sure which post you're refering to. First, middle, and last, as far as I'm concerned, you're very welcome here. Hazing? Never was much of a sorority boy.
|
|
|
|
|
