#24907
03/26/2001 10:49 PM
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I just managed to find my way into the Chat with Richard Lederer and asked him if any of his puns had ever failed due to differences in usage bewtween countries. Part of his reply surprised me. He said:"For example, any joke that relied on the line "smart as a whip" wouldn't work in the UK because the folks there don't use "smart" to mean "intelligent."
This really surprised me, as many of my UK friends use "smart" in that way. Obviously, I would not expect ordinary speakers of any variant of English to be au fait with another variant's usage. However, the fact that Dr. Lederer is a usage editor for a major dictionary, makes me wonder if his response is more proof of the astonishing insularity (nod-to-tsuwm-emoticon) of US English speakers?
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#24908
03/27/2001 12:48 AM
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Dear Max: Just for fun, I went to UK Yahoo, found Cambridge English Dictionary, and it gave smart the way I am used to using it.
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#24909
03/27/2001 12:54 AM
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Dear Max: Just for fun, I went to UK Yahoo, found Cambridge English Dictionary, and it gave smart the way I am used to using it.
Thanks, Dr. Bill, tat's my point exactly. How could a usage editor for a dictionary not know that? Or, rather, does the fact that a usage editor for a dictionary did not know that indicate that the gap between the two main Englishes is now a gaping chasm that even the exceptionally learned do not cross?
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#24910
03/27/2001 7:51 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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How very odd. 'Smart' doesn't strike me as in any way an Americanism. I wasn't aware of any usage difference. It's just another everyday synonym, intelligent = smart = clever.
Perhaps it's not the word of first choice, I don't know; I'd say someone was intelligent, as the most neutral. I use 'clever' to mean intelligent but it also has a possible pejorative connotation of overly-clever; 'smart' is open to the same objection: you can reprimand someone 'Don't be clever!' or 'Stop being smart!'. I assume these connotations are US also. But the basic meaning is (as far as I'm aware), just 'intelligent', and is a natural word for it here.
It doesn't strike me as parallel to either of these cases: (i) Two words, both used in both countries, but each preferring one. So 'frock' and 'dress' both used and understood, but US would usually choose 'dress', UK 'frock'. (ii) One word, primary sense different in each country, but both senses understood in both. So UK 'mad' = insane, but also understood as angry*; US conversely.
Perhaps my second paragraph means it's actually of type (i) but I'm no longer as sensitive to non-UK usage as I used to be.
* This formerly said crazy, which was a typo -- I meant angry, of course.
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#24911
03/27/2001 8:43 AM
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Joined: Feb 2001
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addict
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"Dress" would now be my word of choice (in UK) over "Frock" which sounds old fashioned (and I'm not young). Is this a regional, class, age, difference? Or just personal?
"smart" with no context would mean neat and tidy to me, but within context could mean "clever" with no awkwardness, and no connotations. "Don't be smart with me" = "Don't be clever with me" with no difference.
Ro* Ward
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#24912
03/27/2001 10:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
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old hand
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There is one informal BE usage of smart that is not used in AE:
A:Did you get the tickets for the concert?
B:Yeah!
A:Smart! (meaning 'Excellent' or 'good job')
'Smart as a whip' ('bright as a button'?), seems pretty obvious, even though I like 'quick as a whip'.
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#24913
03/27/2001 11:06 AM
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Yo, Ro, I'm with you exactly on this.
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#24914
03/27/2001 11:27 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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i) "Brilliant," however, *is* used differently, no? ii) re: dress/frock: Do UK wives tell their husbands to shut the frock up? 
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#24915
03/27/2001 11:30 AM
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addict
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What about "smartypants"? For me, it refers to a person who is too clever for their own good, and cheeky to boot. Would that be mainly US or British English? 
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#24916
03/27/2001 11:35 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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<<and cheeky to boot>> Marianna, You've given me another excuse to bite my tongue. David
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#24917
03/27/2001 11:52 AM
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Brilliant means "very clever" or "very good" to me. "My son is brilliant, he can do long multiplication in his head". "The band were brilliant, they played all the oldies"
Is this different from US usage?
Do UK wives tell their husbands to shut the frock up?
No, they would say something like "Darling, please unbutton my frock, and drop it gently to the floor. And if I ever catch you wearing it again...!"
Ro* Ward
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#24918
03/27/2001 12:24 PM
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"Darling, please unbutton my frock, and drop it gently to the floor. And if I ever catch you wearing it again...!" Oh, Ron/b/y--oh, D!--RoD, how funny!  I have to stick my US'n (I do like that abbreviation) preference in again, though we have done this before: The band was brilliant. It was brilliant. Your way makes so much sense, but just sounds wrong, wrong, wrong to me.
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#24919
03/27/2001 12:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 20
stranger
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stranger
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In American usage, I'd say it's very rare to hear the word "brilliant" in the sense of "very good."
In fact, just seeing "That band was brilliant!" in writing makes think think of a British accent.
(I'm also having an image of Basil Fawlty, screaming "Brilliant!" at the top of his lungs, meaning "Great idea!")
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#24920
03/27/2001 1:47 PM
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Smart I use as "bright" and "intelligent"
But, also aware of its meaning as a stinging sensation one gets with a dermal abrasion.
Common put down in my youth centered on that meaning.
"She's very smart."
"Yeah, where the skin's off!"
Also, when, say, someone has a coordinated ensemble I'd say "You look very smart." Which would be taken as meaning the entire look makes a particularly good impression.
The phrase is not heard often but the meaning is clear and the person to whom it is addressed knows exactly what's meant and is pleased.
wow
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#24921
03/27/2001 2:08 PM
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I've often heard smart to mean the initial feeling of a stinging or burning hurt. A pain that comes on really quickly, like carpet burn as an example. If the pain stays then it no longer smarts but aches, or whatever other description pains have.
"You look really smart in that suit" has fallen out of use. I would say that it was mostly said in my parent's generation (over 50).
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#24922
03/27/2001 2:12 PM
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To respond to initial post...Max, perhaps he didn't give you the best example with smart but I can understand what he was talking about.
Just this week we discussed blinkers/blinders. If a guy made a joke and said a person didn't see what was coming because he had his "blinkers on" NOBODY in Québec would get it because they would automatically think the guy was in his car and had his turning lights on.
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#24923
03/27/2001 2:13 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 819
old hand
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old hand
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"Dress" would now be my word of choice (in UK) over "Frock" which sounds old fashioned
What about the diference between BE and AE in the meaning of pants? It is my understanding that in the UK, if one goes into a shop and asks to see pants, one is directed to underwear instead of trousers, as would happen in the USA. Also, the streamlined fairings around aircraft wheels are spats in the UK, and pants in the USA, where the term "spats" is archaic. And, as we all know, we can't have archaic and eat it too.
Now, not being a transvestite, don't one of you Brits call me a frocking idiot!
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#24924
03/27/2001 2:27 PM
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The dictionary gives the first meaning of smart as the sensation of pain, it then gives smart as slang for intelligent.
The teachers gave lazy students blows to various parts of the anatomy. First their backsides smarted, then their brains learned how to avoid punishment, and the students then were "smart."
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#24925
03/27/2001 2:36 PM
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in the USA, the term "spats" is archaic
Oh Gawd! You're making me feel old, *old, OLD!!!!!
Could not find "spats" on the Shorter OED-CD or through Atomica.
However, Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language (1978) has "spats" defined as noun (Colloq)<spatterdash - a legging a gaiterlike covering for the instep and ankle.
My Dad wore spats which were made of a soft felt in colors to compliment or contrast with the shoe/trouser color. They buttoned on the outside of the instep and protected the shoe top and ankle and provided some warmth in winter.
Only place I see them now is in "period" movie dramas.
But there is no other word that is specific to them
Is it because spats are no longer in fashion that the word has become archaic?
That is until some designer revives spats as a fashion statement or fad?
wow
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#24926
03/27/2001 2:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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DELETED: Garynamy does it better !!
<<Darling>>
Ro, you are a trip!
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#24927
03/27/2001 2:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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<<If a guy made a joke and said a person didn't see what was coming because he had his "blinkers on" NOBODY in Québec would get it because they would automatically think the guy was in his car and had his turning lights on. >> Because Quebecs have their blinkers on.
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#24928
03/27/2001 6:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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In reply to:
One word, primary sense different in each country, but both senses understood in both. So UK 'mad' = insane, but also understood as crazy; US conversely.
What is the difference between "insane" and "crazy?" My American Heritage defines "insane" as "afflicted with insanity" and "crazy" as "affected with madness; insane." Other than "insane" being a more formal term, the two terms are used interchangeably in the US.
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#24929
03/27/2001 7:04 PM
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two terms are used interchangeably in the US.
But don't you find that insane is usually used to describe somebody who did something crazy AND morally bad.
I most often hear crazy used to describe somebody doing something irresponsible or plain stupid but not evil or mean...like "Mike is crazy if he thinks he can jump over twelve cars with his motorcycle"
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#24930
03/27/2001 7:21 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Webster's New World gives no etymology for crazy, but def 1 = having flaws or cracks. The entry above this is craze, which means to break or shatter from ME. It would appear crazy literally means cracked, a word we also like to use for crazy.
Sane, L. sanus or healthy. Insane is 'not sane,' that is, not healthy, although not necessarilly cracked.
Speaking of which, what of "inflammable," which has come to mean 'not inflammable?' (as well as the related "flammable")
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#24931
03/28/2001 4:30 AM
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In reply to:
So UK 'mad' = insane, but also understood as crazy; US conversely.
I assumed when I read this that crazy was a typo for angry.
Bingley
Bingley
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#24932
03/28/2001 6:52 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393
enthusiast
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AARGH!! Yes, it was a typo for 'angry'. Well spotted!  Just ignore 'crazy'. It was never mentioned, okay?
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#24933
03/28/2001 9:16 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
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inflammable and flammable are still synonyms where I come from. the sunshine warrior
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#24934
03/28/2001 9:20 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
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The word pissed is used in the UK to signify drunk, whereas it means angry in the US. For angry, in the UK, we would use 'pissed off'. Another mad/crazy/angry issue?
For me (without ref to lexicon), 'smart' means:
1. (adj.) Well turned out
2. (adj.) Clever (not necessarily intelligent)
3. (v.) Hurt in a stinging/burning way, but fading away, unlike an ache.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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#24935
03/28/2001 2:10 PM
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My psychiatrist friend tells me you are sane or insane there is no grey area.
She maintains the other words are just ways to indicate aberrant or anti-social behaviour among sane people.
IOW - You can't be a little bit insane any more than you can be a little bit pregnant!
You either is or you ain't.
We are talking colloquial vs the true definition. Right? NOT the legal definition used in US courts. OK?
wow
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#24936
03/28/2001 3:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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Crazy or not
My friend who is a psychologist and who is employed by the court system, tells me that the word "insane", or any equivalent word or term, has no medical meaning -- it is a legal term only, which differs from place to place, and from time to time, as to exactly what constitutes "insanity". In medical terms, the whole concept of mental illness vs. mental health, normality vs. aberration (basically a statistical condition) etc. is a very large and complicated affair with, often, no fixed boundaries or norms.
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#24937
03/28/2001 3:32 PM
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The Journal of Psychiatric Nomenclature endorses the phrase Just Plain Nuts.
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#24938
03/28/2001 3:50 PM
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The word pissed is used in the UK to signify drunk, whereas it means angry in the US. For angry, in the UK, we would use 'pissed off'.In QC it depends upon the way you use it. I got pissed on Saturday = drunk I am so pissed (straight upset face) = angry I am so pissed (goofy grin) = drunk I am pissed off = angry Piss off as an expletive means f**k off Piss off as a verb means you made somebody angry Piss off the bridge = guys showing off again
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#24939
03/28/2001 5:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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nflammable and flammable are still synonyms where I come from
Pet peeve of my mom's who says they came up with "flammable" because people thought "inflammable" meant "not flammable." [bad pun intentionally omitted]
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#24940
03/28/2001 7:50 PM
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[bad pun intentionally omitted]
Don't EVER do that again.
wow
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#24941
03/28/2001 9:46 PM
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Bel, you had the post about the difference between pissed on and pissed off-- but do you know why piss is yellow and "cum" is white? So a drunk (or substitute ethic group of choice) will know whether he is coming or going... and curiously-- in Japanese-- one uses Going as the term for an organism, and coming as the term for uninations-- proving that in japan a western doesn't understand anything and never knows whether he is coming or going! and in french--my meager french allows me to count to 5, and say "in the name of the Father, the son,and the Holy Ghost, Amen-- Hail Mary... i mangle the days of the week, and months of year.... and certainly don't know any street slang--So do french men come-- or go (or rather in which room do they come or go!) Or would you rather not say?
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#24942
03/28/2001 10:49 PM
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who says they came up with "flammable" because people thought "inflammable" meant "not flammable."
The Oxford Concise English Grammar gives the same explanation for the origin of "flammable", and adds that this linguistic faux pas is redeemed by its usefulness in potentially dangerous situations.
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#24943
03/29/2001 4:47 AM
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In reply to:
So do french men come-- or go
No idea, but Indonesian men keluar which means exit, come out, or go out according to context(it's a compound literally meaning "to the outside").
Bingley
Bingley
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#24944
03/29/2001 7:56 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
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So do french men come-- or go (or rather in which room do they come or go!) Or would you rather not say?Given that they allegedly undergo 'the little death', I'd say they were going, going... gong! cheer the sunshine warrior
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#24945
03/29/2001 4:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
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veteran
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veteran
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Flammable/Inflammable
The International Maritime Dangerous Goods Code, which is the Bible for the transport by sea of hazardous materials, begins the section on flammable materials like this:
"CLASS 3 - FLAMMABLE Liquids
1. PROPERTIES
Definition of flammable* liquids
[footnote] *"Inflammable" has the same meaning as "flammable".
Since the IMDG regulates all oceangoing transport of hazardous goods, and matters of very large import and many millions of dollars hang on its provisions, they take no chances on anyone not knowing about either of the two expresssions which mean the same thing. This is, of course, the way lawyers use language.
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#24946
03/29/2001 4:09 PM
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the way lawyers use language... using two words - going back to the fine old Medieval days when clerks charged by the word and the length of the word
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