#23613
03/20/2001 6:39 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
I didn't mean to but you on the spot Aah, but you didn't. I was happy to explain my take on it, especially because the way test assumed that one's opinion would altered by the gender of the protagonists annoyed me. Besides our divergence of opinions had shanks salivating with delight, and that was nice, 'cos he's gunner need something to spur him on to happiness soon. 
|
|
|
#23614
03/21/2001 11:09 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Like the porn industry, it seems to be inevitably exploitative, primarily of women
I know what you mean by this reservation, shanks. But it often seems to me that this sort of discussion takes place in a moral vacuum. If viewed relatively against the actual texture of our daily lives, how many of us are not party to some sort of contract of exploitation? When I employ a factory hand for £x per hour and they sell their time to me so that I can make £xx from the results, to pay my £xxx salary, after which the company’s principals draw their profit of £xxxx… We surely, every single member of this forum, engage on a daily basis with these relativistic exchanges of power and freedom. Is prostitution different in some way I am failing to understand? Convince me!
|
|
|
#23615
03/21/2001 11:37 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 427
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 427 |
Maverick asks: Is prostitution different in some way I am failing to understand?
I would say prostitution is different because usually there are no protection or buffer measures set up for prostitutes within the "exploitation" structure. Workers who have grievances against their boss or their company are backed up by committees, unions and what-not, so that anything that goes over the "accepted" levels of exploitation can be dealt with quickly and (hopefully) satisfactorily. In contrast, prostitutes are more often than not marginalised, discriminated, persecuted, in frequent danger of physical harm, and can only resolve "grievances" by going to the police (and in many places that would land them in jail). The fact that their trade is secretive and taboo prevents them from acquiring basic rights that other people who work for money expect.
I guess what I want to say is that selling sex for money is not itself any more exploitative than selling your work to the company you work for, but the conditions that these women (and men, too) do it in are exploitative.
|
|
|
#23616
03/21/2001 11:45 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Yes, I entirely agree with you, Marianna. If as a society we could examine the moral arguments with a little greater clarity, then we might be better able to address these civil rights issues.
|
|
|
#23617
03/21/2001 12:25 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 76
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 76 |
Marianna, I think you're absolutely right. The way a person chooses to exploit their abilities is their own, unless it violates another's rights. It's the lack of safeguards that's the problem -- both for the prostitutes, their customers, and even for the larger society (safe sex is not required, for instance).
|
|
|
#23618
03/21/2001 1:30 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
Mav
I think Marianna and others make the points quite well. Me, I'll stick to matters linguistic and query the phrase you have used: ...some sort of contract of exploitation...
This, to my mind, is Marxist language. Which is not necessarily bad in itself, but seems distinct from 'natural' language. In this terminology, all work for wages is exploitation, thereby depriving the natural use of the word of any meaning. I may be entering a contract which earns money for the company that pays me, that cycles over into bigger profits/pay for the people who own the company and so on - but I have made a pretty free, informed choice in this matter. Now if prostitution were habitually like that (and the set up in the Netherlands, I believe, commonly approaches that standard) then it would simply be paid work, or rather, freelance work. That's fair enough.
My problem is that exploitation, in its natural sense, occurs when, for instance, underage people, who cannot make an informed decision, are involved in the industry. Whether its the running shoe manufacturer's factory in a developing country, or the runaway teenager pumping up her courage with a cigarette as she hangs around King's Cross looking for her next 'trick', there is exploitation.
Similarly, even a grown up can be exploited if no credible options are provided that she/he can use. Again, I am not a bonded worker, and far from being a slave. I have the choice of a variety of jobs I can perform, with varying grades of commitment to the jobs, and proportional pay from them. I am aware of these options, and qualified to take advantage of them. A number of people (again, as I say, primarily women) in the sex industry (let's lump prostitution and pornography together) do not have these options, or the awareness of them, or the ability/qualifications to take them up. That, for me, is exploitation, and I haven't yet spoken of the seedier side of prostitution - the pimping, the deliberate drug addictions, the beatings, the breaking of the spirit rituals that those who make money out of it perform.
It may well be that if prostitutes were properly organised in unions, with recognition of the legitimacy of their trade, that a lot of this would be ameliorated. I don't know. What I do know is that, in our currently far from ideal world, I'd be loath to recommend it as a profession to a person I cared about - particularly if that person happened to be female. I would, as a corollary, feel no moral repugnance towards one who is a prostitute, though if I felt she was being exploited in that profession, I would certainly feel pity for her. I doubt if we've really become a mature enough society for completely well adjusted young people to take up prostitution as a legitimate career - there's a long way to go before we get there, if we ever do.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
|
|
|
#23619
03/21/2001 2:26 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
informed decision... I am aware of these options, and qualified to take advantage...I think our beliefs probably only differ in detail of interpretation , shanks. I certainly agree with almost everything you say here. The only point I might cavil at is the kind of phrases highlighted above, which I feel can be a slippery slope. After all, the young men and women who leave school quite young and go into the local clothing factory in the town in which I live have very circumscribed choices in practice. Yet still, within the limits of their education, competence and general experience, they can be said to exercise a measure of free will in contracting their services. That really was all I wanted to draw attention to in that analogy, since I expect there are some amongst us who may have very different perspectives on the basic 'absolute morality' issue of prostitution. I feel exactly the same way in practice about sympathy for those suffering the exploitation of an unfair 'contract' of sexual abuse; just as I do for those suffering unfair abuse at other occupations (like any good Marxist business manager should!) 
|
|
|
#23620
03/21/2001 3:06 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Thee was a book about thirty years ago by a famous madam who said there was a time in many a girl's life when she realized she had given away a million dollars.
That might be amusing if the consequences were not so grim. I hope that the increasing acceptance of women in the professions and in many occupations formerly closed to them will keep more and more women from having to make such a horrible choice,especially now that AIDS has been added to all the other "social"(a vile euphemism) diseases.
At least we have come a long way from the conditions that made the Roman "meretrix" mean "prostitute".
|
|
|
#23621
03/21/2001 6:00 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
i think "sex industry" jobs are often a poor choice of career-- especially today-- with so many new and deadly diseases-- but the morality of it-- all lot of that is social-- and related to patriarchies--. As jewish law points out, a child of jewish mother is always jewish-- but a child of non- jewish mother and jewish father is not-- (i suspect the same held true when cultures, like india, had a "caste" systems-- or cultures where you get "born into" the society-- it is not true with all societies-- but many)
A lot of is about making sure the children your wife/spouse/partner bears are your children-- in days long before blood test or dna!
It is these cultures that create the Madonna/whore dicotomy-- they are fearful of "loose women"
in culture that have matriarchies-- where it doesn't really matter who your father is-- your family, status, inheritance is all through your mother-- prostitution is not much of an issue-- but its also much less of a choice-- since women tend to have "inherited" status-- and don't need a man to get status--or material assets!
I tend to think prostitution is exploitive-- it exist because men have "visible sign of power" (ie, money) and women have limited means of getting it-- They can use their appearance -- and trade it for a good marriage-- or they can use their families (male members of the family) to arrainge a marriage (the "groom" doesn't so much marry the bride, as he creates an alliance with the bride's family)-- but still, the women only has status as it relates to the men in her life-- and since they want to be "sure" the children are theirs-- they want to control a women sexual life-- and a woman with an uncontrolled sexual life is held in contempt.
So sexual purity becomes a value-- and sexual looseness a sin--or worse! In many cultures -- a woman can be killed for having sex outside of marriage- but the man who has sex with her is held blameless-- and even "modern" civilized cultures-- US or England-- there still remain an attitude that a woman did something "wrong" if she get raped-- and it is very hard to convict rapist-- a woman testimony isn't enough! (thank god for DNA testing-- it has become a "co-operating witness" to the crime!) and in the same societies-- prostitutes get arrested-- but "John's" go free.. two parties to the transaction, but only one is wrong. (do i see a double standard?)
There are some "sex industry" jobs-- that women enter into freely-- "exotic dancers" in many cities work as independant contractors-- and can earn very good incomes-- and prohibbit physical contact from "customers". but in most places-- prostitution is exploitive.. not morally wrong-- (but pimping is!) but a societal wrong--
It doesn't have to be exploitive--or wrong-- but it has become so...
An other point--she is called "Maid Marion"--Not Mrs (madam, mistress)-- which implies she is not married or "troth" to Robin-- so her actions are hard to define as "unfaithful". Should/does Robin have the right to deside what Marion gets to do with her body--just because he is a man?
If one gets married-- and make a promise to be "faithful"-- and "foreswears all others"-- okay, then she is breaking a vow-- but is she is Maid Marion? (the story is unclear as to whether Marion and Robin are just a "couple" or if they are "husband & wife"-- )
|
|
|
#23622
03/21/2001 10:21 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
"thank god for DNA testing" I fully agree! This may be the "only context" in which I agree with the use of this technology for identification (crimes of violence)... and even "modern" civilized cultures-- US or England-- there still remain an attitude that a woman did something "wrong" if she get raped I find this very difficult to believe... that anyone with any sense (except for lawyers and investigators attempting to extract their respective "truths"(talk about exploitation)) truly brings this thought process forward immediately... and anyone who does won't last long in this town...  rant/ It amazes me that people ignore a sense of a whole person, yet are quick to reduce that definition (somehow) into the combination of the smallest pieces possible, and expect this to be "knowledge". (as Steely Dan says "the things that pass for knowledge - I don't understand). Notwithstanding the medical "benefits" of identifying disease causes, it is equivalent to ripping apart a Bach piece down to the notes (or better yet, some thing by Holdsworth) and "proving" to us all that either of those two are better music's.
Of course, one could just listen, hear, and know! /rantps. The US doesn't have a culture...
|
|
|
#23623
03/22/2001 11:23 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
Dear Helen
Since I agree with just about everything you say, this post would be redundant, if not for one contrary opinion I hold - regarding your on-topic comment! You said:
An other point--she is called "Maid Marion"--Not Mrs (madam, mistress)-- which implies she is not married or "troth" to Robin-- so her actions are hard to define as "unfaithful". Should/does Robin have the right to deside what Marion gets to do with her body--just because he is a man?
If one gets married-- and make a promise to be "faithful"-- and "foreswears all others"-- okay, then she is breaking a vow-- but is she is Maid Marion? (the story is unclear as to whether Marion and Robin are just a "couple" or if they are "husband & wife"-- )
1. I do not lay great store by formal marriage - a relationship, with mutual acceptance of responsibilities towards it, is a relationship whether or not it has been formally contracted to.
2. If we claim that Marion had the simple right to do what she wanted with her body - without regard to the feelings of her notional partner in the relationship - then surely Robin had the right to reject her without regard to her feelings too? My point has been (from the start of this extended discussion) that Marion's actions are not necessarily blameworthy in isolation, but in the context of a relationship with Robin she seems to have either:
a. ignored his feelings
b. been unable to predict them (which appears unlikely, since she was reluctant to tell him about what she had done).
To that extent, I feel that she is guilty - she took upon herself control of an issue that affected both of them, and while she had the absolute right to do so, she has no right, thereafter, to claim that the relationship should continue, or continue as before.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
|
|
|
#23624
03/22/2001 12:41 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 76
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 76 |
I hope that the increasing acceptance of women in the professions and in many occupations formerly closed to them will keep more and more women from having to make such a horrible choice,
An interest sidelight to this -- last week I had dinner with a woman who, for ten years, had been a "hooker booker." She worked at a up-scale bordello, scheduling appointments. She said that the majority of the prostitutes were women who were quite intellegent and that many, in fact, were using their earnings to pay for higher education--I presume to enter occupations formerly closed to them. Ironic, eh?
I think of troys analysis is fascinating (being a member of Veblen's fan club). It is amazing how complex and deep the dynamics of this kind of interchange are.
|
|
|
#23625
03/22/2001 6:17 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
To that extent, I feel that she is guilty - she took upon herself control of an issue that affected both of them, and while she had the absolute right to do so, she has no right, thereafter, to claim that the relationship should continue, or continue as before.
That's it! Thank you shanks, for doing such a fine job of expressing one of the main reasons I felt that Marion was not guiltless.
|
|
|
#23626
03/22/2001 6:49 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315 |
I think that there is a difference between being wrong and being guilty.
Marion had to choose between two evil deeds, and made her choice.
Probably she was wrong in hoping that Robin could accept it, but for judging deeply her behaviour we should know her feelings and her intentions.
I want to say that the same deed can be guilty or not , depending on the intentions of the person who did it.
Anyway, I feel that the story has an happy end, since Robin was not worth being married - not since he left her, but since he abused and offended her.
Ciao
Emanuela
|
|
|
#23627
03/23/2001 2:02 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86 |
"Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, for those ideas and comments,"said Professor Scribbler, quietly arrogating to himself that worthiest of titles in order that he may ASK and not be required to ANSWER the Qs he proposes to propound. "I have, for your convenience, divided the class into groups based upon your previous answers, placing the Absolutists on my right and the group representing Situational Ethics on my left. In the middle of our Electronic Forum, I have placed, appropriately enough, those contemplating meditatively (or meditating contemplatively) together with the uncertain and the confused. Now we are ready to proceed to the Next Level. Would your answers still be the same," he asked, with the hint of a twinkle in his eyes, "if we changed the facts just a bit?" His eyes darted quickly to the Absolutist quarter, then back just as quickly to the neutral middle. "Let's start with just two changes."
#1. Same facts EXCEPT THAT, instead of "merely" languishing in the relative comfort of a dreary dungeon, Robin and LJ are to be hanged at dawn, day after tomorrow, UNLESS, of course, MM acquiesces to the 13th Century plea bargaing offer, as aforesaid, in which instance, the High Shire Reeve of Nottingham would, on his word of honor as a Christian (Pardon me, Mr. Shanks) gentleman, arrange a jail break to freedom, success guaranteed. All right, Class, same answers as before? Discuss?
Now for #2 - Same set of facts as in #1, supra, EXCEPT THAT, The Shire Reeve has, in aid of his nefarious scheme, advised Robin of his "offer" to MM and permitted Robin to send a note to MM, pleading for her "cooperation" in order that his (Robin's and their friend's (LJ's) lives might be spared. MM receives the note. There is no mistaking Robin's hand (such as it is). She knows it well. The reply comes back from MM. "Robin, my dearest, I could not love thee, dear, so much, loved not I honor more." (Anticipating, by some... but that is another class) "Sorry, Robin, my Eternal Love. I shall get me to a nunnery and we shall meet, someday, in Heaven!). In the great tradition of Hollywood, Will Scarlet and the Merry Men mount a valiant effort to free the prisoners, but, alas, Hollywood having,for once, surrendered to Reality, the effort fails and the terrible sentence is (in Hollywood's exquisite detail) carried out, with Will Scarlet and a few more merry Men hanged for good measure. (Rated R for cruelty and violence, as well as for the lurid sexual scenes between MM and the High SR. Parental Discretion advised. Tickets: Adults $8.50; Seniors, $6.50; Children 12 and under $5.00 - Children are not permitted to bring firearms into the theatre except w/ the written permission of a parent or guardian)
"Same answers, Class? Please don't forget to sign the Honor Pledge. Leave your bluebooks on my desk," says Professor Scribbler, preparing to leave the room.
|
|
|
#23628
03/23/2001 2:47 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
"Same answers, Class? Please don't forget to sign the Honor Pledge. Leave your bluebooks on my desk,"Huh? This left-leaning moral absolutist is now utterly confused. You describe the situation as "changed just a bit." To me, the additions change the scenario entirely. Robin's giving his blessing to Marion means that no betrayal of a personal trust is involved, and Marion's refusal to comply with the Sheriff appears to be in harmony with her internal moral code, as opposed to the initial scenario, where she appeared to breach her own ethics. In this scenario, I would score Marion first for sticking to her own values, Robin lagging behind for asking her to compromise those values for his sake, and LJ neutral. "the lurid sexual scenes between MM and the High SR" had me confused, I thought she declined the Sheriff's proposal - are we talking about rape here? 
|
|
|
#23629
03/23/2001 3:00 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86 |
(Before you ask, here is an) Explanatory Note from Scribbler re:" Lurid sexual scenes between MM and the High SR." I thought MM REFUSED the offer!. Answer: #1. Of course she did, but since when has Hollywood stuck to "the facts" the "book" or whatever, especially if there is an opportunity to present sexual .... #2. Perhaps it was a dream sequence, the SR imagining the success of his scheme, etc, or #3. Perhaps Scribbler erred in the original Post and has invented these rather lame "explanations" in self-defense to a Board w/ sharp eyes for errors. Choose any one or more.
|
|
|
#23630
03/23/2001 4:08 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86 |
To Max -- re "Lurid sexual scenes" As I privately acknowledged to you, you caught me- almost instantly- before I could correct my own error. but see my Explanatory Note. That (as they say) is my story and I'm sticking to it.
re "Changed it a little bit" Of course it is CHANGED. CHANGED A LOT- That is why it is called Phase II. It seemed to me that 1) we had flogged the poor horsey enough on the original issues, but that 2) the Board, judging by the number, length, and rapidity of the posts, was quite interested in the subject matter. "A" solution (not necessarily "the" solution is to change the facts ("a bit' or "a lot") and see, what,if any, difference it makes. To Abolutists, it might ... Or to those who hold by "situational ethics' or to others... What say we see what, if anything, any of those have to say. Meanwhile, there is absolutely nothing to prohibit (is there?) further discussion, ad libitum, on the original set of facts? If I have given the Thread an untimely twist, someone please straighten it out.
|
|
|
#23631
03/23/2001 4:35 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
Bring it on, urges Max in a post that serves no purpose except to bring him closer to veteran .
|
|
|
#23632
03/23/2001 2:49 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
[Sparteye, having read of the slight change in facts, experiences a flashback to her law school days of some twenty-odd years ago. Throwing her hand across her brow, she cries, "Beat me, whip me, teach me law!" and swoons, reviving only just enough to whisper, "where did Blackacre go?" before fainting dead away.
Bow to wow emoticon.]
|
|
|
#23633
03/23/2001 7:00 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Checked your bio and you have well over 1,000 posts.
Thought veteran was "over 1,000 posts"
How much over oh great and powerful Anu?
Hang in there Max. I'm a'rootin' for ye.
wow
|
|
|
#23634
03/23/2001 7:14 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Sparteye, was that a bow-wow in your last post?
Scribbler, I'm picking that you are also a lawyer if only because of your use of legal terminology, although there is nothing to be gleaned from your profile to support the view.
The first scenario was a bit of fun, but you've raised the bar a bit too high here for my liking!
Nothing in your recasting of the facts of the situation changes the morality of anyone's actions in absolute terms. It may, however, change the actions themselves. Someone under duress, unless he/she is a fanatic or a would-be martyr, may well do something immoral to circumvent what he/she sees as a greater immoral act.
"Situational Ethics" is really nothing more than the study of what people will do given particular scenarios. From the point of view of theoretical philosophy morals are absolute, although having said that they are only absolute in the face of the societal norms against which they are formed. (Note that I am totally ignoring overweening moral codes such as the totally confused and self-contradictory Judeo-Christian "ethic" here).
If you want to use scenarios to determine people's ability to perform moral judgements, then I suggest that you acquire (for dosh) James Rest's "Defining Issues Test", because that is recognised as the leading instrument for testing the ability to form moral judgements around the world. I've used it myself on several sample populations. It doesn't work well across divergent cultures, but that's life.
In your scenario (and the original one as well), there are too many actors to determine the real morality of the actions of any one of the people, because if you have four people you have four different sets of moral codes interacting with each other. You also have way too many influences to determine which particular "moral rule" was used in the formulation of the decisions made by any one of the actors. Maid Marion may well have elected to become made Marion for any one of a number of reasons thrown up in your extended scenario. An example: Maid Marion may well have been a hedonist, just looking for a good reason to justify having sexual relations with the Sheriff. To her, saving Robin Hood's neck under those circumstances may have just been a minor, if self-justifying and slightly beneficial, outcome of the action.
And all of this is why I distrust judges. Judges are supposed to apply the law impersonally, but of course they don't. They are prey to their own moral backgrounds (or lack of them). If you are indeed a lawyer, how many times have you tried to get a particular type of case heard by this or that judge because you know that the judge will use a particular set of moral judgments to determine his/her verdict?
[/rant]
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#23635
03/23/2001 11:44 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
Thanks, wow. The mark for veteran is 1200. I find that interesting, because of the fact that moving from old hand to veteran requires 500 posts, while veteran to Pooh-Bah requires 400. Does this mean that the next stage requires fewer still?
|
|
|
#23636
03/24/2001 3:20 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
old hand to veteran requires 500 posts, while veteran to Pooh-Bah requires 400. Does this mean that the next stage requires fewer still?
Could time aBoard be a factor?
Or is it a whim of the Great and Powerful Anu's ?
Keep posting!
wow
|
|
|
#23637
03/24/2001 4:39 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>Or is it a whim of the Great and Powerful Anu's ?
pooh-bahs have whims; wordsmiths have whigmaleeries! (but few practitioners of pooh-bahism understand this.)
|
|
|
#23638
03/24/2001 7:34 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
few practitioners of pooh-bahism understand this
Given that there are only two Pooh-Bahs at present, and given that few implies "less than the whole number", that means only one, nicht wahr?
|
|
|
#23639
03/24/2001 8:02 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
pooh-bahs have whims; wordsmiths have whigmaleeries! (but few practitioners of pooh-bahism understand this.)
Someone, I think Inselpeter, was asking whether God assumed attributes or simply had them (presumably devinely), in another thread. Could this discussion be widened slightly to include WordSmiths and Pooh-Bahs?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#23640
03/25/2001 3:33 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Could this discussion be widened slightly to include WordSmiths and Pooh-Bahs
There is only one Wordsmith, and he is...exalted.
Tsuwm is most certainly Pooh-Bah of the first water. And I?
I'd consider myself lucky to be...exonerated.[Golly I wish Jo would hurry up and get back emoticon]
|
|
|
#23641
03/25/2001 3:55 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>Given that there are only two Pooh-Bahs at present... you are thinking much too insularly (as would be your wont, I suppose) -- I was thinking of the guy in The Mikado and his ilk (see picture). http://pinafore.www3.50megs.com/ppym01.html
|
|
|
#23642
03/26/2001 3:55 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Late to pipe up, I know, but isn't this the plot of a play (Shakespear?)? Can anyone help out?
|
|
|
#23643
03/26/2001 4:43 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
That picture of the Mikado pooh-bah looks like the Orphanage keeper who wouldn`t give Oliver any more gruel.
|
|
|
#23644
03/27/2001 9:26 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
Measure for Measure, I think, else - All's well that ends well. Both rather grim, amoral (or morally dubious) pieces, where Shakespeare, world-weary I presume, sends his charcaters through hoops only to arrive at prgamatic resolutions (marriage for money et al). And yes, the Duke's regent asks wossname to sleep with him in exchange for her brother's (?) life. Oh dear, I can't seem to remember this too well. Anyhow - nasty bloke gets something of a comeuppance, thereby justifying the classification of the play as a 'comedy'.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
|
|
|
#23645
03/27/2001 1:47 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Shakespeare, world-weary I presumeYes, but Shakespeare's plot devices were probably never meant to be better than 'formal' affairs, as opposed to a naturalistic device that could pass for something in real life. … Shakespeare used these devices in order to set up the action - and it is upon the action, the language, the emotional interaction between the characters, and the use of plot/sub-plot parallels that gives Shakespearian drama so much of its power…. Oh, hang on…. http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=7622  Mainly I dug up this thread because some of the newer folks might enjoy stuff like Jo’s tips from Wollogong Pig Breeders' Gazette
|
|
|
#23646
03/27/2001 2:17 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
Mav
Not denying the glory of complexity that is the Shakespearian canon - just pointing out that certain plays (Measure for measure, Coriolanus, and Troilus and Cressida spring to mind) are problematic in that the over-riding theme appears to be less one of reconciliation (a Shakespearian favourite) and more that of Machiavellian moral barter (more Jacobean than Elizabethan, if you know what I mean). Lear is a bloody play, and so is Julius Caesar, but neither has the life-sapping cynicism that seems to permeate some of the other plays I have mentioned.
[off-thread digression/rant emoticon]
And, of course, some of the earlier comedies seem inchoate (!!!! I knew I'd use that word someday!!!!) - The Comedy of Errors, The Two Gentlemen of Verona, while one, though masterly, can disgust - The Taming of the Shrew (and yes, I've read innumerable apologetics - how it's supposed to be about true love and so on, but for me it is still brutally misogynistic).
To be honest, now that I've started on my rant, I think the only Shakespearian comedies I think of as trule 'life-affirming' are Much ado..., As you like it, The Tempest (hardly a comedy, though) and A Midsummer Night's Dream (reddemed primarily by the character of Bottom). Even The Merchant of Venice seems soiled to me because of the arrogant nastiness of Antonio towards Shylock - the easy acceptance by all the play's 'positive' characters of the 'naturally' lower place of the Jewish money-man.
I suppose this is what comes of bringing a mind brought up in the late twentieth century into contact with an oeuvre from the late sixteenth...[glum emoticon - indicating end of off-thread digression/rant]
cheer
the sunshine warrior
|
|
|
#23647
03/27/2001 2:28 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
<<A Midsummer Night's Dream (reddemed primarily by the character of Bottom)>>
Yes, and by the *probability*--the farce--of true love.
|
|
|
#23648
03/27/2001 2:32 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
I wrote 'reddemed'? Oh dear. Remind me to check three times! Each time.
The eye has not heard, the ear has not seen, the last of this!!!
|
|
|
#23649
03/27/2001 2:34 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
As always your post was a pleasure to read, shanks, and I can only largely agree. I think you have particularly hit the nail on the head with your final suggestion. It seems to me better that we should acknowledge such differences caused by our very different cultural standpoints - state them openly (and not make feeble apologies of the kind you mention about Shrew), so that like any position our assumptions are laid open to subsequent inspection and challenge. I've no worries that the material of the plays is rich enough to support many divergent views; probably none of which will ever be The TRUTH!
|
|
|
#23650
03/27/2001 2:53 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
I've no worries that the material of the plays is rich enough to support many divergent views; probably none of which will ever be The TRUTH!
Thou speakest sooth oh Mav. I think of Coleridge's romantic Hamlet, or the deconstructionists' Marxist Shakespeare and I cannot but agree - even discussing the canon (let alone enjoying it) is rich enough hunting ground!
|
|
|
#23651
03/27/2001 8:50 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
for me it is still brutally misogynistic).
To be honest, now that I've started on my rant, Even The Merchant of Venice seems soiled to me because of the arrogant nastiness of Antonio towards Shylock - the easy acceptance by all the play's 'positive' characters of the 'naturally' lower place of the Jewish money-man.
I suppose this is what comes of bringing a mind brought up in the late twentieth century into contact with an oeuvre from the late sixteenth..
You are not alone in this assessment, sunshine. I loathed the MoV, and railed long and hard against its Anti-Semitism to my English teacher, providing him with the sort of world-weary amusement you described earlier. The Shrew was beyond me, as I could not stomach the way that it celebrated misogyny, as if it were the only right and proper way to treat women. The first time I read it I was bewildered, unable to understand how any 20th century minds could enjoy it.
|
|
|
#23652
03/27/2001 9:24 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Why doesn't the anti-semitism of Merchant bother me?
***
Anyway, it's the Venicians who come off looking bad, in my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
