#21984
03/09/2001 10:13 PM
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journeyman
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journeyman
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Does anyone know what Salutamus ti Mortatuum means?
-Scott
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#21985
03/09/2001 10:18 PM
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I can't give the quotation accurately either, but the original meant something like "We who are about to die, salute you!"
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#21986
03/09/2001 11:19 PM
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A salute given to the Caesar by Gladiators before The Games began.
wow
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#21987
03/09/2001 11:43 PM
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AVECÆSARMORITVRITESALVTANT  Apparently, something like, "Hail, Caesar, men doomed to die salute thee."
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#21988
03/10/2001 8:25 AM
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Morituri = from morior, mori (die, expire, wither away, pass away, fail, decay).
Morituri is the future accusitive plural so in the context of "morituri te salutant" could be translated as "Those about to die", but knowing the Roman penchant for mordant (sic) humour, it could equally well be translated as "The living dead".
Someone whose knowledge of Latin is less rusty than mine may beg to differ authoritatively!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#21989
03/10/2001 8:31 AM
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"Those about to die"
That's how I had always thought it was rendered. Since my own Latin stops at "ave", I was surprised when a dictionary listing of famous non-English phrases rendered it "men doomed to die."
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#21990
03/10/2001 1:56 PM
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But didn't some live to fight another day?
wow
Oh, without running away that is!
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#21991
03/10/2001 2:58 PM
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In those games in the Colosseum, there was no place to run to.And those who won, had to fight and probably die in the next Games.
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#21992
03/10/2001 4:02 PM
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journeyman
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journeyman
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The champ gladiator won 21 consecutive games. (ask me a anything about Rome and I can answer it. I'm an expert on Rome)  -Scott
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#21993
03/10/2001 4:06 PM
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journeyman
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journeyman
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Well actually, he won two and a half thousand. (21  ) -Scott
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#21994
03/10/2001 4:30 PM
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Since my own Latin stops at "ave", I was surprised when a dictionary listing of famous non-English phrases rendered it "men doomed to die."No, it has to be "those" rather than "men". Female gladiators, after all, were not uncommon. Apart from that the translation of MORITVRITESALVTANT you have found is probably as valid as any other, since there was no exact Latin equivalent of the word "doomed". However, it doesn't mean "condemned" as in "the condemned criminal". There was a noun, not based on mori, judicio or damno, which was used for this. But (sob) I can't remember what it was.  However, someone (Seneca, I think), said "Gladiator in arena consilium capit." Roughly translated, it means "Think before it's too late." Literally, it means "The gladiator is making plans in the arena." Shortly, I presume, after he or she had already done the "Morituri te salutant" thing. As I said, a mordant lot, the Romans.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#21995
03/10/2001 4:44 PM
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a mordant lot, the Romans
But great party givers! (Aside from the death-by-being-torn- apart-by-lions thing.)
wow
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#21996
03/10/2001 5:07 PM
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One thing about Roman parties I cannot understand, the preference for eating lying down. I could never enjoy breakfast in bed. I feel more secure swallowing when seated upright. No "hindlick maneuvers" for me!
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#21997
03/10/2001 5:32 PM
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Roman parties I cannot understand, the preference for eating lying down
Not really prone, whh, rather more like lounging. Just one end of the couch was raised, you leaned against it with the back sort of tucked under your arm and your body stretched out on the flat part. A sort of Madame Recarmier (sp?) kind of thing. How about chaisse longue as a reference? That's more what I mean. No acid reflux . Couches are depicted in movies and also appear in frescoes on walls at Pompei, Italy.
wow
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#21998
03/10/2001 10:27 PM
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About dining horizontally, or course "prone" was a lapsus cerebri cortici (dog Latin) meaning I goofed. Even supine would not be right. Anyhow, I'm chuckling that nobody noticed the intervention suggested. Teehee.
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#21999
03/10/2001 10:57 PM
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member
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wwh> About dining horizontally...
During what we call here the Second Temple Period, when Judea was occupied by Rome, the 'normal' way of dining was, in fact, almost horizontally... propped up on cushions, with the food in front most probably on low tables. In fact, all those wonderful European painters who pictured the "Last Supper" as a long table with everyone on one side and Jesus in the middle were, in a word, WRONG!
In fact, the type of 'dining' was called a triclineum - a three-sided table, in a U-shape, low to the floor, so that the diners were, as mentioned above, propped up on cushions, around both the outside and sometimes the inside, as well, of the table(s).
A good place to see how this was arranged is at Zippori (Sepphoris) in the Lower Galilee (just 6 kms north of Nazareth). If you have seen any information on any of the archaeological excavations there, you will have seen a mosaic floor which contains what we fondly call "the Mona Lisa of the Galilee" - a beautiful woman with a stark expression looking straight out (at the camera, so to speak). It's a beautiful example of the type of mosaic work that was prevalant in wealthy Hellenistic homes of the period. Anyway, the floor that contains this small piece is in what would have been the 'main' room of the home. The entire mosaic design is a tribute to Dionysus and only one portion contains the face of the woman but it also has a plain white mosaic section that forms a U-shape around the outside of the design at one end of the room. On this white section is where the tables would have been placed. The mosaic floor, then, was the forerunner of our carpets!
BTW - since the designation for Joseph, the father of Yeshua (Jesus), as "capenter" in translation is not exactly correct - he was more likely a 'tekton' which would have been either a stone mason or general handyman or both - I offer that he worked, not in Nazareth which was a poor village of only 200-300 people, but in that grand wealthy gleaming white city on the hill just outside of Nazareth called Zippori (Hebrew for "bird in a nest" as it sits comfortably on the hill overlooking the vast valleys all around it).
The place to EXPERIENCE this type of dining is a terrific and fun restaurant called The Cardo Cullinaria which is located in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. Upon entering, you are greeted by trumpets announcing your entrance, asked to don typical Roman garb (which is provided), to sit at a triclineum table and enjoy 2,000-year-old food - actually not bad considering...
Hope y'all don't mind - just practicing!
Shoshannah
*One footnote - this 'villa' in Zippori was undoubtedly NOT a Jewish home, as it is doubtful that a Jewish home would have included images of people or animals in the design since it is against Jewish law (the Torah) to do so. As well, no Jewish home would have included a tribute to Dionysus in the design, obviously!
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#22000
03/10/2001 11:32 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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OK, Bill, I'll bite: Methinks thou dost protest too much! I'll bet you're planning a Roman banquet right now, in the hope of choking on a chicken nugget just so some sweet young thing in a toga can hindlick you right out of distress. Caligula, move over.
Woohooo - paaarrr-teee!
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#22001
03/10/2001 11:45 PM
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Shoshannah: Thanks for the informed guided tour. I keep trying to learn, but it is like trying to fill a pail with a small hole in the bottom. Bill
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#22002
03/10/2001 11:50 PM
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Dear Sparteye:
Actually not even in my wildest dreams would I seek such ministrations. No missionary would have objected to my performances.
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#22003
03/11/2001 3:26 AM
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like trying to fill a pail with a small hole
Methinks it would take more than one hole. We know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall.
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#22004
03/11/2001 3:34 AM
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We know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall.
Only a very deep-seated sense of decorum stops me from adding the next line.
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#22005
03/11/2001 3:38 AM
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old hand
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old hand
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I read it on this board. What does "Timor mortis conturbat me" mean?
Also what does "Alea Jacta est" mean?
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#22006
03/11/2001 3:51 AM
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Timor mortis conturbat me
The fear of death disturbs me.
Alea Jacta est
The die is cast.
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#22007
03/11/2001 6:14 AM
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old hand
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#22008
03/12/2001 1:13 AM
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journeyman
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journeyman
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O Captain, my Captain,you granted authority to those who would "beg to differ" and I now beseech you for that purpose. My view is that there are several errors in the thread that want correcting and I shall offer the following.
Let's start w/ the Latin quote . I do not know whether the gladiators always said, in a ritualistic fashion, exactly the same words, but the Latin phrase is usually quoted "Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus!" The English translation is, "Hail, Caesar! We who are about to die salute you! ("Salutamus" is pres. indic. , 1st person,pl. "we salute" (The saluters) ) "te" (Caesar) (the salutee), hence the pronoun "te" is in the accusAtive "case". Nouns and pronouns have "case". Verbs do not. "Morituri" would take a minute to explain and I rather doubt that anyone is interested except Bobyoungblatt who could authoritatively and succinctly explain it to all of us. Hate to be picky, but wanted to set record straight.
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#22009
03/12/2001 2:48 AM
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lectisternium - an ancient Greek/Roman religious rite in which the images of gods were placed on couches and food spread before them
I am reminded (belatedly) that this is now called "football season" in the U.S.
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#22010
03/12/2001 10:31 AM
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Scribbler said Let's start w/ the Latin quote . I do not know whether the gladiators always said, in a ritualistic fashion, exactly the same words, but the Latin phrase is usually quoted "Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus!"
"Salutant" was engraved in an amphitheatre somewhere (can't remember which one if I ever knew - I saw it in a photograph). There is a well-researched book about the "ludi" I once borrowed, but I can't remember the name of it at this distance in time. However, I will freely concede that they may have also used salutamus.
I must have been tired when I wrote "accusative" when I of course meant "active".
And they only used "Caesar" when Caesar was physically present. If they had saluted anyone but the real Caesar and the real Caesar got to hear about it, there would have been free ring-centre tickets to the Roman circuses all round, along with the wild animals.
I believe they used either "Domine" or "Dominus" (or perhaps the person's name) for anyone else. Rich nobles used to pay for the games both in Rome and elsewhere. Claudius, for instance, "paid" for games when he was made city magistrate. Since either Tiberius or Caligula was Caesar at the time, I don't think it would have been either politic or healthy for either the (surviving) gladiators or Claudius to be talking about Caesar like that ... Sejanus would have had them if it was Tiberius, and Caligula was mad as a hatter and had people murdered for much smaller crimes. Or no crime at all, as a matter of fact.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#22011
03/12/2001 12:41 PM
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addict
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addict
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Scribbler noted: I do not know whether the gladiators always said, in a ritualistic fashion, exactly the same words, but the Latin phrase is usually quoted "Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus!"It is my understanding that "Morituri" is a future active participle, i.e. a verbal adjective which can therefore be used as a noun, as in the phrase "Morituri te salutant/salutamus" (I understand that it is used as a noun simply because there is no other nominal element for the subject position). In this case, "morituri" is a plural noun that could accompany any verb in the plural. So grammatically speaking, both "Morituri te salutant" and "Morituri te salutamus" are correct. If you were to add a pronoun to the sentence, such as "nos", "illi", that would certainly determine which verb form is adequate. I have more often heard/read "Morituri te salutant" than "te salutamus", but this may be a fluke. Or maybe, as Scribbler notes, it was a fossilized, ritualistic phrase...
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#22012
03/12/2001 2:49 PM
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All Hail Four Beautiful posts in a row!Thanks to each of you,Scribbler,tsuwm,Capital Kiwi, and last but not least, lovely Marianna!
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#22013
03/12/2001 3:36 PM
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Morituri te salutant/salutamus
Certainly if you were talking about the gladiators from the comfort of your chiseling booth while the animals and gladiators were safely locked up in their cages then you would use the third person salutant. If you were one of the gladiators about to die you would use the first person salutamus.
The first time I remember seeing the word morituri it was as the title of a movie about a Japanese ship during World War II and since I thought (erroneously) at the time that it fit the form af a possible Japanese word (it would have to have been Moritsuri as I now understand these things, I may still be wrong) I thought that the word was Japanese.
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#22014
03/12/2001 5:53 PM
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veteran
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veteran
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ancient-style diningI've heard of 1000 year old eggs in Chinese cuisine, but I don't know that I would enjoy 2000 year old food.
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#22015
03/12/2001 6:00 PM
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2000 year old food
Morituri te salutamus, salami!
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#22016
03/12/2001 6:11 PM
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veteran
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veteran
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morituri
You, Marianna, CapK and Scribbler have, among you, managed to cover all the bases on this, and you have certainly stated the meaning. All I would add is that morituri may be strange due to the fact the morior is a deponent verb -- one of a class of bastard verbs which are conjugated as if they were in the passive mood but are actually in the active mood. (Then there are the semi-deponent verbs, a bunch of real bastards which act like deponent verbs only in certain tenses, and some of which have their direct object in the ablative case instead of the accusative. For my sins, I once had to memorize which ones those were, and after 45 years remember they are: utor, fruor, fungor, potior and vescor. Strange what useless stuff sticks in your memory when you have to memorize it in your youth. It's like the German prepositions which take the dative vs. those that take the accusative or the genitive, which I can also remember and reel off.
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#22017
03/12/2001 6:22 PM
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which I can also remember and reel off...Fun party trick, huh?
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#22018
03/12/2001 6:46 PM
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aus bei mit nach seit von zu, bis, durch fuer, gegen ohne um wieder an auf hinter neben unter vor zwischen
where does ober go?
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#22019
03/12/2001 9:29 PM
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and after 45 years remember
Sr. Ruth Marie, SND, had a neat way to teach us the most used verbs which take avoir instead of etre.
Sung to the tune of Yankee Doodle Dandy :
alle, parte, sorti, venu, devenue, retourne, arrive, reste, rentre, entree, tombe, nee et mort.
Spelling is probably awful. Excuse moi!
wow
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#22020
03/12/2001 9:42 PM
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Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
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the German prepositions which take the dative vs. those that take the accusative or the genitive
I just remember bis, durch, für, gegen, ohne, um are accusative because it flows so well. The other ones are dative.
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#22021
03/12/2001 9:49 PM
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I can't remember any prepositions taking genitive.
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#22022
03/12/2001 10:06 PM
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Posts: 68
journeyman
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journeyman
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Friends, AWADers, countrymen, lend me your ears . My favorite gladiator is Fludarius Marirade. (gladiator fighting is way better than WWF) Speaking of WWF, I think the Worldwide Wildlife Fund should get the letters WWF for all there websites and stuff. In my opinion anyone can take them, the wrestlers are to stupid to even know what letters are. -Scott rough_collie@dog.com
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#22023
03/12/2001 10:33 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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Speaking of WWF, I think the Worldwide Wildlife Fund should get the letters WWF for all there websites and stuff.Well, you're in luck. Seeing as the Worldwide Wildlife Fund is an organization, http://www.wwf.org is their website.
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