|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
that, or tolerance speaking.
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
That's the point, Sheba. Civil people automatically select words and meanings so as not to offend and social correctness in a condition neccesary to effect orderly communication.
Political Correctness is otherwise. It seeks control.
I'm afraid I can't follow the conversation very well, but I'm glad you both agree.
Signed and added to files,
BranShea
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3 |
that, or tolerance speaking. I can understand that especially in cases of racism.
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
Political Correctness is otherwise. It seeks control.
If I say something, you censure it as politically correct, how then is that not seeking to control my speech? The interesting thing about the term is that it started out in leftist contexts where somebody's rhetoric would be labeled politically correct as a censure that the person was just parroting ideas without actually understanding them. But, now it has mainly be adopted by the right as a way to control speech that involves ideas that are at variance with those who wish to censure.
What most people dismiss as PC, I think falls under the old-fashioned concept of being polite. It really does not matter to me if you want to shout blasons populaires in a crowded theater. Go for it. Another thing termed PC is euphemism. Again, if you want to say somebody croaked to their widow, that's your prerogative, but I'll err with a little euphemism.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
Political Correctness is otherwise. It seeks control.
If I say something, you censure it as politically correct, how then is that not seeking to control my speech? The interesting thing about the term is that it started out in leftist contexts where somebody's rhetoric would be labeled politically correct as a censure that the person was just parroting ideas without actually understanding them. But, now it has mainly be adopted by the right as a way to control speech that involves ideas that are at variance with those who wish to censure.
What most people dismiss as PC, I think falls under the old-fashioned concept of being polite. It really does not matter to me if you want to shout blasons populaires in a crowded theater. Go for it. Another thing termed PC is euphemism. Again, if you want to say somebody croaked to their widow, that's your prerogative, but I'll err with a little euphemism.
hear, hear.
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554 |
“Don't you see the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the language of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible because there will be no words in which to express it”
__________________________ George Orwell, 1984
And don't you see, zmjezhd, that the distinctions between Left and Right political beliefs are contrived and are designed to categorize into groups the non-thinking man. You know, sorta like but not like when we join together as Americans to oppose those wish us dead.
But reality is different. Political Correctness even or especially when encoded into law has but a single objective: Control.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
the distinctions between Left and Right political beliefs are contrived and are designed to categorize into groups the non-thinking man. You know, sorta like but not like when we join together as Americans to oppose those wish us dead.
It's not just left and right (or Left and Right). Don't you see that all ideologies, especially those acquired shortly after birth, and which remain with us mainly un-examined can be a short-circuiting of reason. In fact, they are the opposite of rational argument. But one's own ideologies are usually not so classified. I have a philosophy of life, you have an ideology un-examined and patently false. Orwell's "thoughtcrime" (which you no doubt identify with some US laws on hate crimes) are an extreme form of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. That language controls thought is a nice lengthy topic to discuss on a words-related board, but why do I have the sneaky suspicion that what you really want to discuss is Politicks (intentionally thus spelled with lofty capital letter and archaic 'k' attached to raise its level to a classical argument).
What are laws, if not something to control the people who constitute Society. "What do you mean I cannot strange some fool in a parking lot because she parked across two spaces? Stop trying to control me. You're not the boss of me!" You can argue that a law is unjust, but not on the grounds that it is trying to control you or anybody else. (Although the latter is usually not so much worried about.)
Oh, and for the record, Orwell was a fine writer, and although I liked his non-fiction better (i.e., Down and Out in Paris and London and Homage to Catalonia), he knew diddly-squat about language or how it works.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554 |
It's not just left and right. Don't you see that all ideologies, especially those acquired shortly after birth, and which remain with us mainly un-examined can be a short-circuiting of reason. In fact, they are the opposite of rational argument. But one's own ideologies are usually not so classified. I have a philosophy of life, you have an ideology un-examined and patently false. In youth we inherit the collective wisdom of those who have gone before us and in late youth we usually rebel and imitate our radical pea-headed professors such as those who design and ban the words from our achivement tests. The following words were banned by the NYC Board of Education NYC because... only-God-knows-why: •Abuse (physical, sexual, emotional, or psychological)
•Alcohol (beer and liquor), tobacco, or drugs
•Birthday celebrations (and birthdays)
•Cancer (and other diseases)
•Catastrophes/disasters (tsunamis and hurricanes)
•Celebrities
•Children dealing with serious issues
•Cigarettes (and other smoking paraphernalia)
•Computers in the home (acceptable in a school or librarysetting)
•Crime
•Death and disease
•Divorce
•Evolution
•Expensive gifts, vacations, and prizes
•Gambling
•Halloween
•Homelessness
•Homes with swimming pools
•Hunting
•Junk food
•In-depth discussions of sports that require prior knowledge
•Loss of employment
•Nuclear weapons
•Occult topics (i.e. fortune-telling)
•Parapsychology
•Politics
•Pornography
•Poverty
•Rap Music
•Religion
•Religious holidays and festivals (including but not limited to Christmas, Yom Kippur, and Ramadan)
•Rock-and-Roll music
•Running away
•Sex
•Slavery
•Terrorism
•Television and video games (excessive use)
•Traumatic material (including material that may be particularly upsetting such as animal shelters)
•Vermin (rats and roaches)
•Violence
•War and bloodshed
•Weapons (guns, knives, etc.)
•Witchcraft, sorcery, etc.---
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
banned from what? being written? being spoken? where did you get this list?
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554 |
banned from what? being written? being spoken? where did you get this list? What, mein Führer? Ja, ja, don't strike me, I will tell... I got it from Fox News. Stop, ouch, stop, I lie. The list is from the net. CBS NYC Television 2012
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
What, mein Führer? Ja, ja, don't strike me, I will tell...
I was waiting for Godwin's Law to apply.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554 |
How silly. Are you offended by light humor? Do you not care about the engovernmentation of everyday words?  "Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself." _______________________________ Salman Rushdie
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Some humor is so light that it evaporates before you can get the meaning. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554 |
Small humor has only one person to please but it is better if there is at least one other.
But to abruptly change the topic of discussion by way of semantic turns is both rude and childish. Again...
The NYC Board of Education concocted a list of 50 words not to be used by the company they hired to create achievement tests for their NYC students. Buffalo Shrdlu asked for my source and I gave it to him.
Does anyone else have anything further to add?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 956
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 956 |
I was intrigued by Z's Segue.
Godwins law in an ironic way delves into the PC/UN PC nature of how language can devolve into something quite disturbing
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
Well, I have this to add: I have been a public school teacher for more than 25 years, I can see pretty easily why those words were "banned" from the achievement tests. I'm not going to make a list, but one only needs to think a little while about each one, and I think understanding might dawn.
Does that make it right? Does that make it wrong? Yes, and yes. And no, and no.
But what it does make it is thoughtful. Knowing that when a child is expected to do well on a test, you don't hit them with a bunch of things which might bother them very much. I think there are plenty of available topics leftover.
And I enjoyed this conversation more when it was about morality, prior to its derailing into the PC quagmire.
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Does anyone else have anything further to add?
Sure. I'd like to add that topics have a tendency to meander from here to there all the time. Nothing rude about it.
But..I would like in discussion subjects that the original topic title would be contained all through the thread. ( no mini discussions in the topic-box). (I've asked for this before because I don't take email notifications, lose the topic this way and after all it reminds us clearly what started the discussion).
Banned words... could they invent a more positive approach?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
Oh, BranShea. I'd like ham and cheese on rye with butter (no mayo), but they just have so many things at my local deli... I never seem to buy that.
*******
A discussion that went from "morality" to "Pc -vs- nonPC" didn't meander very far... it just went next door to see if that swing set is any more fun!
*******
It should be easy enough to add a field here to make it "the original thread title" which, created at the beginning, is unchangable... in addition to the "Subject" one we have now. It would require a complete database rebuild... which would probably take this board offline for a few days...
Last edited by musick; 05/07/2013 5:01 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
It seems a lot like a topic list for the "Nightly News". I guess those actual words are used, but usually in such a general way. Yet, I suppose the individual experience will be immediately drawn out by the mere mention of those words. There must be some study revealing that experiences with these "descriptives" are so personal so as to be distracting and therefore become "results skewers". The same reason the "Nightly News" wants them *in.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
 You are right musick, next door is almost the closest from here to there you can get but some threads go all around the block. I don't consider it rude. And what are a few days seen from the perspective of eternity?
Last edited by BranShea; 05/08/2013 11:51 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
I maintain that an atheist can have morals - absolutely. For me, the expert in this field was the philosopher David Hume (1711-1776). But his deliberations didn't meet with much acclaim at the time. Many other thinkers have struggled with your question. They failed to answer it by arguments based on pure reason. Like the great Kant, they had to postulate some "a priori's".
In modern times, experimental psychologists have entered the fray, devising highly simplified experiments e.g. on the famous "prisoner's dilemma" and its variants. Others have done computer simulations on "populations", which included some "antisocial" individuals, besides the law-abiding (moral?) majority. It turned out that "policing" by some members of the majority improved the fate of the group. But this almost amounts to "begging the question" - a question which, in my opinion, is still unanswered.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
I have a philosophy of life, you have an ideology un-examined and patently false. - You know, I have often admired, on this board, your wide-ranging knowledge, differentiated arguments and mastery of language(s). But if you quit your usual reserve and wax polemical, things tend to turn ugly. Better be careful with your sharp sword.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
I have a philosophy of life, you have an ideology un-examined and patently false. - You know, I have often admired, on this board, your wide-ranging knowledge, differentiated arguments and mastery of language(s). But if you quit your usual reserve and wax polemical, things tend to turn ugly. Better be careful with your sharp sword. this was, undoubtedly, meant to be a rhetorical you, not aimed at anyone in particular, eh?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
I have a philosophy of life, you have an ideology un-examined and patently false.
You know, I have often admired, on this board, your wide-ranging knowledge, differentiated arguments and mastery of language(s). But if you quit your usual reserve and wax polemical, things tend to turn ugly. Better be careful with your sharp sword.
Yeah, well, it was an overheated discussion anyway, but, I guess, in the end, I need to work on my sarcasm or ought that to be irony? I was riffing on the conjugations meme (or whatever it's called). You know, where I am object, your are subject, and s/he is beyond the pale. And, thanks for the kind words ...
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
this was, undoubtedly, meant to be a rhetorical you, not aimed at anyone in particular, eh?
It was aimed at the Royal We, the editorial we, and the we of nurses. (What is the adjectival, Latinate form for nurse?)
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
I have a philosophy of life, you have an ideology un-examined and patently false. - You know, I have often admired, on this board, your wide-ranging knowledge, differentiated arguments and mastery of language(s). But if you quit your usual reserve and wax polemical, things tend to turn ugly. Better be careful with your sharp sword. this was, undoubtedly, meant to be a rhetorical you, not aimed at anyone in particular, eh? This was clearly a rethorical I and a rethorical you, even I could understand that and the tendency of the post; between ironic and sarcastic. I hope irony and sarcasm will still be allowed on this originally free and open board.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
No, sarcasm will never ever be allowed again. Yes, that was sarcasm.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Shoulda used a winky frowny there, boss. ;(
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Thinking about the difference between irony and sarcasm. Could sarcasm be the critisism of a bitter person and irony the critisism of someone capable of relativating the facts of life? No matter how awful the facts often are? I'm reading the integral Don Quichote by Cervantes. Besides being mad he is masterfully ironic. Perfect classic for the summer vacation fully illustrated by Honoré Daumier.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Mad: Don Quichote, not Cervantes.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
No, sarcasm will never ever be allowed again. Yes, that was sarcasm. heh
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
One problem here is that Brit usage of irony covers what USns call sarcasm. It also covers what I'm not sure we call anything, like on a 35°C day someone will always ask, "Hot enough for you?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554 |
Evolution created morality.
God created Evolution.
Think.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
"Hot enough for you?"  I think it is an ironic question. Ironic is nice and sarcasm is not, I think. Irony is based on friendliness, sarcasm is bitterness revealed. Though the fine line between the two may not be straight.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
"Hot enough for you?" I think it is an ironic question. Ironic is nice and sarcasm is not, I think. Irony is based on friendliness, sarcasm is bitterness revealed. Though the fine line between the two may not be straight. I agree. We (USns) just don't call it irony.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
irony
So, saying "I could care less" is being ironic?
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,554 |
"Hot enough for you?" I think it is an ironic question. Ironic is nice and sarcasm is not, I think. Irony is based on friendliness, sarcasm is bitterness revealed. Though the fine line between the two may not be straight. Well thought out and well said, BranShe. All spoken words are situational in meaning, that is; whenever the speaker and the "spoken to" agree on the essence of what has been said that becomes the meaning of what has been said. Period.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,075
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,075 |
"Hot enough for you?" I think it is an ironic question. Ironic is nice and sarcasm is not, I think. Irony is based on friendliness, sarcasm is bitterness revealed. Though the fine line between the two may not be straight. Branny, as a Brit who enjoys both irony and sarcasm, I think that your analysis of the two forms is masterly. Couldn't have put it better meownse'f! (Underlines the closeness of Dutch and Brit ways of thinking! Let us never forget that William III was a Dutchman!)
Last edited by Rhubarb Commando; 07/28/2013 8:17 PM.
I'm immortal until proven otherwise
|
|
|
|
|
