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We had a lively discussion at lunch today about morality. One person maintained that morality comes from a Higher Power, for lack of a better term, and that if you're not religious you don't have morality, you just go by what's "right" or "wrong" according to the laws of whatever society you live in.
I maintain that an atheist can have morals.
I would love to read your-all's thoughts on this, if we can do it without getting into whether or not there is a Higher Power (of whatever name) or judging the various religions.
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Morality is a trait of any successful social species. Without morality it would be impossible for that species to survive. If there's a higher power involved that higher power is natural selection.
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I maintain that an atheist can have morals.
I've never bought the "only the religious have morals", which in my experience means those whose religion is closest to the speaker's.
I think all humans have morals (just step on somebody's toe or reach into another person's shopping cart at a store and remove an item for yourself).
And, what one's ethical system is a mishmash of the traditional plus the idiosyncratic.
As to its origins, like many things, it comes from the individuals who make up the societal group.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Morality is a trait of any successful social species. Without morality it would be impossible for that species to survive. If there's a higher power involved that higher power is natural selection. Yes, but not exactly. Morals are but an aspect of the mechanics of evolution. A Higher Power is needed to effect a Creation to put the billiard balls in motion.
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A Higher Power is needed to effect a Creation to put the billiard balls in motion.
Ah, deity qua big bang.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Morality is a trait of any successful social species. Without morality it would be impossible for that species to survive. If there's a higher power involved that higher power is natural selection. A Higher Power is needed to effect a Creation to put the billiard balls in motion. Too many capitals in that sentence.
formerly known as etaoin...
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Morality is, morals are the principles that maintain in or bring into equilibrium the interests of the individual with the interests of a group/ society.
I think it comes from our hunting, gathering, cave dwelling past.
How to fight and compromise over territory and bone. From rudeness to refinement. Who's the expert in the does and don'ts of our prehistory?
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Clearly said BranShea.
And buffalo, if you can't capitalize THE Creation how can you justify capitalizing Walmart or Chicago or Obama or Sin?
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I think it comes from our hunting, gathering, cave dwelling past.
If we didn't have morals to start with we would never have made it that far.
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And buffalo, if you can't capitalize THE Creation how can you justify capitalizing Walmart or Chicago or Obama or Sin?
Well, three out of four are what they call themselves, so who am I to say? I don't know anybody named Sin.
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Morals are but an aspect of the mechanics of evolution.
I think it comes from our hunting, gathering, cave dwelling past.
Could you-all clarify your statements a little further for me, please; specifically, are you saying that morality is different from right-vs.-wrong, and if so, how?
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The Roman Archbishop of Manila was named Jaime Sin.
Last edited by LukeJavan8; 04/23/2013 2:03 AM.
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The Roman Archbishop of Manila was named Jaime Sin. So that capital is fine, too.
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Beats me! Just adding my pittance for what it is worth.
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Now BS, you know very well that the rules of Capitalization grade into convention. You can if you like de-capitalize the word "earth" but when you come down to earth you'll still find "Earth" capitalized by the coterie. But my capitaling was just for kicks. 
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Morals are but an aspect of the mechanics of evolution.
I think it comes from our hunting, gathering, cave dwelling past.
Could you-all clarify your statements a little further for me, please; specifically, are you saying that morality is different from right-vs.-wrong, and if so, how? Yes Jackie, morality is different from right and wrong but at the same time they are the same. Both concepts are cultural devises invented to abet the continuance of the breeding group. "Right and wrong" are the parameters of acceptable behavior and "morality" encompasses a subservience to the Cultural norm.
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Could you-all clarify your statements a little further for me, please; specifically, are you saying that morality is different from right-vs.-wrong, and if so, how?
Morals is about right-vs-wrong. Only the right-vs-wrong can differ from culture to culture. I was told by a Congolese friend that in the tribe where Mobutu came from, stealing without being caught was a highly esteemed virtue.
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Note also that the God who some claim gave us morality told us to commit genocide just a few chapters after telling us not to kill.
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But my capitaling was just for kicks. And we all know who's wearing the boot...
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in the tribe where Mobutu came from, stealing without being caught was a highly esteemed virtue. Whoa!
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Yes, and look at the history of the DRC from
Leopold to now.
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I'm almost totally ignorant about that; I just know it has been, and is, terrible.
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Which does not imply that one out of over 200 tribes' morals has decided the course of history. Where in this tribe stealing was an acknowleged virtue, there have been many robbers of all colors and continents that influenced the course of Congo's history. Still do.
(but I am stepping out of the language comfort zone)
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Gee BranShe, if language has a comfort zone then language can't get its job done. The term "politically correct" is semantically self-damning and to all who think; self-demeaning.
And remember; all in-groups rationalize, modify, excuse, and sometimes exalt, any violations of the mores of the larger group if perpetrated by members of their own in-group.
[How otherwise could money-grubbing lawyers and politicians and doctors get rich?]
Usage. The term "Culture" can apply to the self-aggrandising beliefs of two renegade bank robbers as well as the collective self-aggrandising beliefs of everyone else in the World.
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Language does not have a comfort zone, language ìs a comfort zone.
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How cozy!
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language is a comfort zone
... I agree with Burroughs, "language is a virus from outer space" ... and culture is a pedestrian zone ...
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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- I only meant the comfort zone of language against the discomfort zone of politics and opinions.
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I only meant the comfort zone of language against the discomfort zone of politics and opinions.
I knew what you meant, Branshea, and so did other folks.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I only meant the comfort zone of language against the discomfort zone of politics and opinions.
I knew what you meant, Branshea, and so did other folks. So did I, BranShe. Obviously this is not a forum for political debate. But our love of words and language is meaningless if we don't speak out against those who would censor our words to advance their own political agendas. A "comfort zone" with fay words is a pacifier without milk.
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>A "comfort zone" with fay words..
I'm not sure I understand the use of 'fay' (elfish?) in this context; or perhaps you meant 'fey' (otherworldly, precious)?
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our love of words and language is meaningless if we don't speak out against those who would censor our words to advance their own political agendas.
I see things differently. The PC crowd and the anti-PC crowd are both trying to control how language is used. Both have their own political agendas which they are servicing. That aside, one can do things with language, e.g., lie, swear, incite, pacify, hurt, humor, philosophize, etc. Nobody likes being told how to speak or how to behave or how to act, but we are social creatures and we live in this world with others. I don't care how un-PC somebody is, if you use language against them (even having the temerity to tell them how to speak in your presence) they will no doubt get upset, and who am I to say with this is rightly so or even true? We pretty much eschew discussions of politics and religion (to choose just two of the major taboo topics), and our forum is the better for it. Every now and then somebody sneaks something through (in the Name of Liberty, Justice, Ethical Behavior, etc.), and we all suffer it and suffer by it.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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>A "comfort zone" with fay words..
I'm not sure I understand the use of 'fay' (elfish?) in this context; or perhaps you meant 'fey' (otherworldly, precious)? No tsuwm, I meant "fay" as in "fairy-like". I woulda said "fairy" but I thought some people might think that "fairy" was a homophobic term so I went with "fay". Today, I'm thinking, it is more politically correct to say fay rather than fairy.
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Morality is a trait of any successful social species.Morality and ethics are the core things for any world culture and for global culture as well.
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formerly known as etaoin...
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You think they'd get a clue.
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our love of words and language is meaningless if we don't speak out against those who would censor our words to advance their own political agendas.
I see things differently. The PC crowd and the anti-PC crowd are both trying to control how language is used. Both have their own political agendas which they are servicing. That aside, one can do things with language, e.g., lie, swear, incite, pacify, hurt, humor, philosophize, etc. Nobody likes being told how to speak or how to behave or how to act, but we are social creatures and we live in this world with others. I don't care how un-PC somebody is, if you use language against them (even having the temerity to tell them how to speak in your presence) they will no doubt get upset, and who am I to say with this is rightly so or even true? We pretty much eschew discussions of politics and religion (to choose just two of the major taboo topics), and our forum is the better for it. Every now and then somebody sneaks something through (in the Name of Liberty, Justice, Ethical Behavior, etc.), and we all suffer it and suffer by it. Well said zmjezhd. Except you equate the PC crowd with the anti-PC crowd. That is not reality, that is political correctness.
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Is there any difference in meaning between elfish and fairy-like and what's the use of inventing a euphemism for a euphemism for a ...and so on and so on...
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Is there any difference in meaning between elfish and fairy-like and what's the use of inventing a euphemism for a euphemism for a ...and so on and so on... That's the point, Sheba. Civil people automatically select words and meanings so as not to offend and social correctness in a condition neccesary to effect orderly communication. Political Correctness is otherwise. It seeks control.
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Political Correctness is otherwise. It seeks control.
I most assuredly agree. It's the imposition one's
value system on others.
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