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yeah, well it wasn't really meant to be; but you might as well make your examples topical!
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I'm glad I had my madeleines out of the oven before I started reading. Jenny, why didn't you bring Socrates?.
Socrates was a wise and clever man, he never could be wrong. That's why near the end of his book I thought he did not deserve the poison, but he sure did deserve Xantippe.
Tsuwm's advise to write offline and copy is really a good one. Far more relaxed. To me the outcome looks very undetermined in spite or maybe just because of the 99 species of determinism in the wiki article.
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Dear, dear, tsuwm; disarticulated facts are the stuff of idiot savants. Read here the semantic evidence for Determinism. And if after reading it you don't understand it go back and read it again because you have done a poor job of putting it together.
1) In your mind multiply the total number of atoms in the universe times their interactions with other atoms since the Big Bang exploded fifteen billion years ago.
2) Life is defined by self-replication and change.
3) Lifeforms as entities extend into the environment.
4) Thoughts and words are physical extentions of lifeforms.
5) Nothing can't beget something.
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old hand
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So, before the big bang there was something???
Just physically extending
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So, before the big bang there was something???
Just physically extending Yes olly, you extend physically very well.
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But, it you believe in an omnipresent and ompnipotent god, all that is necessary is the (mind; will; existence? pick what you want) of god. Surely, that is what St John was saying? The universe was made extant by the Word.
[personally, I don't believe any of the above, but I think it is a viable argument]
PS And te Word of God is not of us, though with us, and is, therefore, not a pre-existing condition!
Last edited by Rhubarb Commando; 02/18/2013 9:29 PM.
I'm immortal until proven otherwise
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The concept of an omniscient God who is outside of time and the concept of free-will seem to me to be mutually exclusive. But that's why we try not to talk about religion here.
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The concept of an omniscient God who is outside of time and the concept of free-will seem to me to be mutually exclusive. But that's why we try not to talk about religion here. What, Faldage? You got a mouse in your pocket? WE here can discuss whatever we please as long as WE are not rude or vulgar. RC, Olly, BranShe, you, and me, are not talking religion, we are talking Determinism so stay on point. Now listen closely... In the begining was the Word. And the word was God and the word was with God.Which translates deterministically as... Inherent with the Big Bang were all events to follow.
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I ain't sayin' nothin' no mo'.
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So, before the big bang there was something???
So, think some cosmologists. There are theories of multiple big bangs. Multiple universes, too. Not everybody agrees.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I ain't sayin' nothin' no mo'. Thank you, Faldage. A lesser man would not have made an announcement. Back to Determinism: Each person if honest can prove to himself that he (or she) is a robot by simple introspection. Sex, food and drink are biological directives not options. The experincing organism -meaning you- perceives the lack of these biological imperatives as displeasure and their realization as pleasure. We all know this but pretend that we are in charge.
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So, before the big bang there was something???
So, think some cosmologists. There are theories of multiple big bangs. Multiple universes, too. Not everybody agrees. I agree, zmjezhd. Cosmologies are suspect because there are so many of them. Oscillating and multiverse constructs seem rooted in mumbo-jumbo math otherwise someone would outshine Einstein.
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5) Nothing can't beget something.
Even nothing is something, we cannot imagine 'nothing' nor the end of ends.
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5) Nothing can't beget something.
Even nothing is something, we cannot imagine 'nothing' nor the end of ends. BranShe, you agree and disagree with me in the same post, and strangely I end up agreeing with both. 
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Oscillating and multiverse constructs seem rooted in mumbo-jumbo math otherwise someone would outshine Einstein.
Not sure that "mumbo-jumbo math" has a meaning that I can glean. Math is math. Non-Euclidean geometry is still math. I'm not sure that, say, the math behind figuring out the speed of a falling object explains anything about objects or gravity, but it works and can be used for something. I'll take string theory and multiverse cosmologies over the bearded guy in the sky explanation. If nothing they are more aesthetically pleasing.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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5) Nothing can't beget something.
Even nothing is something, we cannot imagine 'nothing' nor the end of ends. BranShe, you agree and disagree with me in the same post, and strangely I end up agreeing with both. Then could you agree with me that nothing can beget something? ( which contradicts your fifth amendment?) 
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5) Nothing can't beget something.
Even nothing is something, we cannot imagine 'nothing' nor the end of ends. BranShe, you agree and disagree with me in the same post, and strangely I end up agreeing with both. Then could you agree with me that nothing can beget something? ( which contradicts your fifth amendment?) Now BranShea (may I call you BS?) you tease me - you well know that all "nothings" are not the same. e.g. Nothing can become something and nothing can become something are yin and yang - exact opposites. A good ear connected to a good mind will understand this.
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I confess. Just teasing (bad habit). It was too tempting and not seriously taken I hope.  BC 's fine.
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Not sure that "mumbo-jumbo math" has a meaning that I can glean. Math is math. Non-Euclidean geometry is still math. I'm not sure that, say, the math behind figuring out the speed of a falling object explains anything about objects or gravity, but it works and can be used for something. I'll take string theory and multiverse cosmologies over the bearded guy in the sky explanation. If nothing they are more aesthetically pleasing. Yes, zmjezhd, I agree, like language math has a function. Yet math, like language, is fuzzy in outline mainly because in our Universe there are no two identical entities to add...or subtract...or muliply, even if that difference is only its unique position in time/space. And I know of no religion that believes God is a bearded or not bearded guy sitting or standing in a sky or not sky Heaven. Except symbolically.
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Since the Faldage saw fit to recuse himself from this ad hoc court I will hereby give the high points of the book he just read but refuses to review. I list the salient points below.
1) When driving and texting or listening to a ball game or just deep thinking; who is doing the driving?
2) A name you couldn't remember suddenly pops into your head. How?
3) Who is dreaming when you dream?
The answer is your undermind. You, your ego, your operating clichés, etc. are merely servo- mechanisms for the real you - your subconscious mind.
He, not you, is driving.
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Maybe somewhere along the line you lost he Socratian trail, JJ . Take care to keep your übermind alert when you drive while listening to music or else you might walz off the road somewhere. The conscious and subconscious are Siamese twins having fun together. (if all is well).
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Thanks Branshe, an honest opinion makes my day especially when it comes from a fellow woman. But sometimes we must sneak up on a gestalt rather than employing the use of Socratic tricks. Naturally you are biased, after all you are the external represenative to the human and non-human world you walk through, you give out and gather information and get to taste the bitter and the sweet therein so it is no wonder you feel "top dog".
But meanwhile, while you sleep and while you are busy being a sensor, a bigger drama is talking place; a drama that takes it's dictates from a far greater imperative - your raison d'être that is and was inherent in the Big Bang.
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Woeweee! jj. I know better than to sneak up on a gestalt and usually I do a runner when I sensor gestalts sneaking up on me! 
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I solved a tricky programming problem in my head coming home from Bedford tonight. No gestalt, no determinism, and my eyes and subconscious were firmly on the road. This holds true for me, too, if I am talking to a passenger in the car. It doesn't hold good if I am having a phone conversation while I drive. So I don't.
Is this relevant? Probably not.
I gave up on philosophy when I realised that for every tenable philosophical theorem there is an equally tenable anti-theorem.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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I solved a tricky programming problem in my head coming home from Bedford tonight. No gestalt, no determinism, and my eyes and subconscious were firmly on the road. This holds true for me, too, if I am talking to a passenger in the car. It doesn't hold good if I am having a phone conversation while I drive. So I don't.
Is this relevant?
Probably not. I gave up on philosophy when I realised that for every tenable philosophical theorem there is an equally tenable anti-theorem. Good obsversations, Mister Kiwi; but maybeso your subconscious mind relieved the you of driving justso he could slip the solution to the programing problem into your obstinate forebrain with ease. And just curious; after you gave up on philosophies, what values, for God's sake, replaced them? Surely you don't live your life willy-nilly.
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Philosophy was OK back when it was helping us figure out how to think. When it took to defending the indefensible is when it got off the rails.
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Philosophy was OK back when it was helping us figure out how to think. When it took to defending the indefensible is when it got off the rails. I agree, Fladage. Your terse words serve as a marker to help move the discussion along. Thanks for your kind tips.
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I'm a Vietnamerse. My English is bad, so I need your help to improve my English. This is the first time I find your page and register. Thank you for helping.
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See Faldo, your pithy points serve to move the disscusion around. But no, moonlight, start your own thread to practice your English. There are hundreds of people here who might help you practice English, but it is rude of you to ask us to change the subject under discussion.
Last edited by jenny jenny; 02/26/2013 4:35 AM.
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Not so much rude as likely perplexed by how this site operates.
Welcome moonlight! Perhaps start a new topic in Q&A about Words. PLenty of people around to help!
formerly known as etaoin...
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I'm a Vietnamerse. My English is bad, so I need your help to improve my English. This is the first time I find your page and register. Thank you for helping. Yes, WELCOME, and start a topic as Buff offered above.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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Now, moving right along with what I've already said...
Biological Determinism dictates that all healthy human beings live their lives with an equal and proportional amount of perceived pleasure, ergo; the pursuit of pleasure is a bull-shitting tip.
For every unit of pleasure we experience we must undergo an equal experience of displeasure, so as to, so to speak, reset our biological clock e.g. the degree of displeasure of hunger will equal the amount of pleasure experienced when we eat. And so it goes with sex, etc. (if sex can have an etc.).
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