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Previous Thread Next Thread Print Thread Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4 Re: grough and nonsense Faldage #206303 07/01/12 06:26 PM Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh zmjezhd OP Carpal Tunnel OP zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh Must is some specialized linguistics definition of logic. It's more of a philosophy of language thang. Russell, Frege, those logician guys ... Ceci n'est pas un seing. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: grough and nonsense zmjezhd #206309 07/02/12 05:10 PM Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,295 Netherlands, the Hague BranShea Carpal Tunnel BranShea Carpal Tunnel Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,295 Netherlands, the Hague When I write: The present King of France is bald, it is unlogical. In the 9th century, a contempory of Charles the Bald could have said: "The present King of France is bald". If I write a story about Charles II and his time and someone in the story says: - "The present King of France is bald"- how would the logician guys explain the difference 'logical-unlogical? Last edited by BranShea; 07/02/12 09:32 PM. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: grough and nonsense BranShea #206310 07/02/12 05:41 PM Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh zmjezhd OP Carpal Tunnel OP zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh If I write a story about Charles II and his time and someone in the story sais: - "The present King of France is bald"- how would the logician guys explain the difference 'logical-unlogical? Well, if it's a story, instead of a history, they might say it meaningless. Not sure. Context is always important. I believe the problem goes away if France is a monarchy at the time of writing or uttering and the present King is bald. I guess I posted my thread mainly because I've been thinking about how complicated language and communication are. I've never much been bothered by the "present King of France is bald" kind of paradox (enigma?), but there are / were people whose opinions I respect who are / were obsessed with it. And, my point about the "present King of France is bald" is that whatever its problem(s) may be, it has nothing to do with grammar. The sentence is perfectly grammatical. The problem may have to do with situational semantics or logic or pragmatics or who knows what. Ceci n'est pas un seing. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: grough and nonsense zmjezhd #206312 07/02/12 07:32 PM Joined: Apr 2000 Posts: 10,542 this too shall pass tsuwm Carpal Tunnel tsuwm Carpal Tunnel Joined: Apr 2000 Posts: 10,542 this too shall pass The present King of France is bald could it be, possibly, that this statement is simply false? Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: groats and nonbeans tsuwm #206313 07/02/12 09:22 PM Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh zmjezhd OP Carpal Tunnel OP zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh could it be, possibly, that this statement is simply false? It could be, but if you read the article I linked to you'll see why other people don't think so. Ceci n'est pas un seing. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: groetsjemeu tsuwm #206316 07/03/12 08:49 AM Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,295 Netherlands, the Hague BranShea Carpal Tunnel BranShea Carpal Tunnel Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,295 Netherlands, the Hague Of course it false. False and mean. Some mistress must have looked under his crown while he was sleeping and she told all the court: "The present King of France is bald". Even worse, who knows what was under the perruques and wigs of all those kings and authorities through the wiggily centuries. History has shown what was under their skull, not what was on it. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: groats and nonbeans zmjezhd #206320 07/03/12 03:34 PM Joined: Apr 2000 Posts: 10,542 this too shall pass tsuwm Carpal Tunnel tsuwm Carpal Tunnel Joined: Apr 2000 Posts: 10,542 this too shall pass Originally Posted By: zmjezhd could it be, possibly, that this statement is simply false? It could be, but if you read the article I linked to you'll see why other people don't think so. oh, I did; which seemed to [ahem] beg my question. Last edited by tsuwm; 07/03/12 08:32 PM. Reason: typo Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: groats and nonbeans tsuwm #206322 07/03/12 06:15 PM Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh zmjezhd OP Carpal Tunnel OP zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh oh, I did I see. The part that cinched it for me was that logical true statements / propositions can be negated to make them false. So, if "the present King of France is bald" is false, then the inverse statement "the current King of France is not bald" should be true. Do you find the former false and the latter true? I don't. Ceci n'est pas un seing. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: groats and nonbeans zmjezhd #206323 07/03/12 07:16 PM Joined: Dec 2000 Posts: 13,803 Faldage Carpal Tunnel Faldage Carpal Tunnel Joined: Dec 2000 Posts: 13,803 Originally Posted By: zmjezhd oh, I did I see. The part that cinched it for me was that logical true statements / propositions can be negated to make them false. So, if "the present King of France is bald" is false, then the inverse statement "the current King of France is not bald" should be true. Do you find the former false and the latter true? I don't. Or either the notion that the inverse must be true is itself false. And is "the current King of France is not bald" truly the inverse of "the current King of France is bald"? Remember, it's not the baldness of the current King of France that's true or false, it's the existence of the current King of France. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: groats and nonbeans Faldage #206324 07/03/12 08:02 PM Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh zmjezhd OP Carpal Tunnel OP zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh Remember, it's not the baldness of the current King of France that's true or false, it's the existence of the current King of France. I disagree. "the present King of France" is a definite description, like "the first man on the moon" or "the winner of the Kentucky Derby". These terms may or may not have referents but how are they true or false in the same sense as a statement / proposition such as "all humans are mortal"? But, mayhaps, true and false mean something else to you ... 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