|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Here's a little thing I longtime wanted to ask. You say:
I will be at my sister's.
She's a friend of my sister's.
In the first sentence this seems clearly to mean: "At my sister's " house or place.
The second form always struck me as odd. "a friend of my sister's" ... what?
Maybe I am making mistakes here, but I just would like to know the details about this. (thanks)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
It's called a double genitive ( link). Michael Quinion opines ( link) about it. The MWDEU is also a good reference ( link).
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
I would just say "a friend of my sister." no possessive.
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Thanks both of you's.  Then it wás my old school English that put it in my head like that. It is simply oldfashioned, allright. A friend of my sister, just like that from now on.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 557
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 557 |
... and "my sister's friend".
It works well for "friend" (possibly due to the assumption the friend relationship is reciprocal?). but "A picture of my sister" might depict my sister and belong to me or anyone, while "a picture of my sister's" would show anything and belong to her.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Ha, yes, I see. I see . There is a difference in meaning when you consider the picture sentence. But what is odd is the 's'. A picture of my sister's. The s looks like a leftover from his. "My sister his picture". But then my sister is a her. Then I do understand you can't write or say " my sister'r picture". You could say though: "my brother's picture = " my brother his picture", hey ho ! Sinking deeper and deeper in the mud. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
A picture of my sister's. The s looks like a leftover from his.
"My sister his picture". But then my sister is a her. Then I do understand you can't write or say " my sister'r picture".
You could say though: "my brother's picture = " my brother his picture"
This is a commonly held misunderstanding of the origin of the 's possesive marker in English. It really comes from one of the most common OE inflexional endings for the genitive singular.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067 |
The only basic mistake you're making Bran is to expect logic or consistency from the English language!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3 |
This reminds me of the discussion of earlier this year concerning where do Churches come up with things like: " at
St. Bernard's". St. Bernard is dead, cannot be a possessive.
Yet even at the Vatican it is St. Peter's Basilica, in London it is St. Paul's. Someone mentioned the 'genitive' case above: which
as I understand it, indicates 'possession', yet a dead saint cannot possess a Church, etc.etc.etc. I like Pook's comment: don't expect consistence in the English language.
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Yep, we've been through this before. The genitive covers more than just possession, despite the modern tendency to call it the possessive. You might say, for example, my brother's parole officer. Doesn't mean you brother owns the parole officer.
As to questions about a friend of my sister's, ask yourself this: Would you say a friend of me or a friend of mine.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
OK. None of the languages is consistantly logic,I guess. Right. Of mine is funny too. Better drop the thing then as more and more of these illogical things will turn up.
How can language be logic as we aren't either. (not wanting to offend the totally logic person, whoever he/she might be, on this board )
I still have a totally unreliable computer situation. So I salute you all. Till the next five mites may turn up.
Last edited by BranShea; 12/08/2008 6:30 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I thought of another example of the genitive not indicating possession:
"There is a red Ford pickup truck in the parking lot blocking access to the loading area. Will the truck's owner please report to customer service."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 876
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 876 |
So, the parking lot is blocking access to the loading area? Why is the truck taking the blame? 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
So, the parking lot is blocking access to the loading area? Why is the truck taking the blame? Uh-huh. What's the word for someone who exhibits willful misunderstanding?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
So, the parking lot is blocking access to the loading area? Why is the truck taking the blame? Uh-huh. What's the word for someone who exhibits willful misunderstanding? Faldage? /snicker
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3 |
I like that 'truck's owner' genitive. Good one.
And: would it be "my friend and me went to the store".
Me went to the store????
We have definitely been thru this before.
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3 |
You guys must do this all day long to become "carpal tunnel".
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Well Javaneight, I don't think me ever made seven posts a day.  But it ìs a somewhat addictive business.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
You guys must do this all day long to become "carpal tunnel". heh I've been here 5 and a half years, so... it adds up. :¬ )
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
So, the parking lot is blocking access to the loading area? Why is the truck taking the blame? Uh-huh. What's the word for someone who exhibits willful misunderstanding? Faldage? /snicker Uh-huh. So lessee, how could I have worded it so y'all couldn't possibly distort the meaning. The original was: "There is a red Ford pickup truck in the parking lot blocking access to the loading area."
How about : "There is a red Ford pickup truck blocking access to the loading area in the parking lot." No, that makes it sound like the loading area is in the parking lot. How about: "In the parking lot there is a red Ford pickup truck blocking access to the loading area." Well, that's a little awkward, isn't it. How about: "There is a red Ford pickup truck in the parking lot blocking access to the loading area." Yeah, that's it. Wait a minute, that's the original. Hmm. And who's blaming anyone, or thing?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 876
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 876 |
"There is a red Ford pickup truck in the parking lot, blocking access to the loading area."
Works for me...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
You got it! And you can easily hear the comma over the mall's public address system, too.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 876
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 876 |
"There is a red Ford pickup truck blocking access to the loading area." There. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 390
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 390 |
I thought of another example of the genitive not indicating possession:
"There is a red Ford pickup truck in the parking lot blocking access to the loading area. Will the truck's owner please report to customer service." This reminded me of a recent post at LanguageLog Believed to be an F-18
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Another case where it seems to me to be a lot of effort involved in misunderstanding it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3 |
As long as it is not my red truck blocking anything, I'm Ok with it.
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3 |
Thanks you guys for your responses on Carpal Tunnel.
I go to this sight before opening any of my daily emails. I see what you mean by addictive. By the way, I hear there is a
Computerusers Anonymous, similar to AA.
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 390
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 390 |
Another case where it seems to me to be a lot of effort involved in misunderstanding it. When I read that piece I thought the misunderstanding was deliberate and for humorous effect rather than nitpicking.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3 |
I think I may be missing something Latishya, I just read the
piece you referred to re; the Fl8. And now they have found another victim. But referring the reporting by the media. I have found that they hardly ever use correct grammar. But it is mostly hype anyway, just to sell their story for more advertising money, witnessed by some phrase like "first exclusively reported here on this station". So I am not surprised by anything the media say.
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 293
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 293 |
Another case where it seems to me to be a lot of effort involved in misunderstanding it. Working closely with US Air Force pilots, they often "become one with the aircraft" and feel the ship is just an extension of their human body!!
"I am certain there is too much certainty in the world" -Michael Crichton
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3 |
I believe it, emotional attachment.
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3 |
Hi -back at you. Welcome.
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,075
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,075 |
Good to have you here, zeun. We're a mad bunch, but mostly harmless!
I'm immortal until proven otherwise
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,971 Likes: 3 |
Be careful with that statement RC.
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,075
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,075 |
Careful? Me? C'mon, now - I have a reputation to maintain.
I'm immortal until proven otherwise
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Incidentally, getting back to the original question:
Back when case meant something in English and we actually marked it in nouns different prepositions took different cases in their noun objects. We have dumped all case markings in nouns except the genitive. So, the one case where it is shown we think is abnormal. Really, it's all the instances where it's not shown that are the abnormal ones.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
I dug up the initial post Here's a little thing I longtime wanted to ask. You say:
I will be at my sister's.
She's a friend of my sister's.
In the first sentence this seems clearly to mean: "At my sister's " house or place.
The second form always struck me as odd. "a friend of my sister's" ... what?
Maybe I am making mistakes here, but I just would like to know the details about this. (thanks) I reread the Michael Quinion article from Jim's link and keep on using the double genitive anyway as it's stuck in my head since schooldays. > link
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 291
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 291 |
I dug up the initial post Here's a little thing I longtime wanted to ask. You say:
I will be at my sister's.
She's a friend of my sister's.
In the first sentence this seems clearly to mean: "At my sister's " house or place.
The second form always struck me as odd. "a friend of my sister's" ... what?
Maybe I am making mistakes here, but I just would like to know the details about this. (thanks) I reread the Michael Quinion article from Jim's link and keep on using the double genitive anyway as it's stuck in my head since schooldays. > link "a friend of my sister" is good.
live in the moment
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,457 Likes: 10
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,457 Likes: 10 |
I have been looking back over this discussion, and there is one possible explanation that no-one has mentioned.
"A friend of my sister's" implies that my sister has two or more friends and we are referring to one of them. So we mean "a friend of [= from among] my sister's friends".
"Of" here means not "belonging to my sister's friends" but "part of the group of her friends". This is why we cannot say "the friend of my sister's" – there cannot be a group if she has only one friend.
So I think the double genitive is perfectly logical.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 963
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 963 |
Thank you, A C. That's my sense of the thing exactly.
|
|
|
|
|
