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Carpal Tunnel
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"From a book I'm reading: "None of this means that the Middle Ages had failed to diffuse advances in practical knowledge, but this effort was restricted by their institutions. The guilds of artisans kept the tricks of the trade secret; they were valuable property, as are today patents and copyrights. By an unconcious pun, the French for craft - métier- was thought (erroneously) to be derived from mistère(= mystery)." -
I looked up the closest easy to find etymology of metier adn found:
1792, from Fr. métier "trade, profession," from O.Fr. mestier, from Gallo-Romance *misterium, from L. ministerium "office, service," from minister "servant" (see minister).
It seems to me that métier coming from *misterium is more plausible than it coming from L. ministerium in spite of what the author of the book says. More likely the English, only starting to use it from 1792 connected it to "office".
Last edited by BranShea; 01/29/2012 8:47 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
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I seem to recall that some religious rites were considered "mysteries" in pre-Christian times, and the Christian church picked up on the idea of mystery. Is there no connection between an ecclesiastical mystery and a trade secret? To me they seem to follow.
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old hand
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old hand
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... and most certainly the Mediæval Gilds referred to their trade secrets as "the mysteries of the craft."
I'm immortal until proven otherwise
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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As do the Masonic lodges today.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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Carpal Tunnel
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... and most certainly the Mediæval Gilds referred to their trade secrets as "the mysteries of the craft." Yes indeed, that is what the quote is telling us. I brought it in here because of the writer's opinion that the French were "erroneous" about the etymology. That is what I doubt.
Last edited by BranShea; 01/29/2012 8:45 PM.
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Carpal Tunnel
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zmjezhd? Can you enlighten us on this intriguing mystery? (I love a good mystery; thanks, Branny!)
I will say, I can see how 'minister' prolly went to 'serve' then 'work'. This stuff is so much fun!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yes and I can see how métier, mestier could come from misterium and so I wonder, yes I wonder who stole the show.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Folk etymologies almost always do seem to make sense. That doesn't make them right.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Can you enlighten us on this intriguing mystery?
Sorry, not really. Either looks plausible. All the dictionaries I checked derive métier from ministerium and not from mysterium. You'd really need to talk to a French lexicographer to find out what's up. It's good to remember that the etymologies one finds in dictionaries are just an abbreviated form of what scholars write out in articles and monographs which would contain more of an argument for why a certain etymology lost out to another one.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Then we'll live with one more intriguing mystery left intact. As is OK. Thanks for taking the trouble.
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stranger
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stranger
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Don't just walk away with this mystery unsolved - give these fine folks a try! http://www.academie-francaise.fr/ 
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Carpal Tunnel
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Le site de l’Académie française est en cours de rénovation. Le public pourra en découvrir les nouveaux contenus et les nouvelles fonctionnalités en 2012.
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Carpal Tunnel
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One of the better online monolingual dictionaries I used: Le Trésor de la Langue Française Informatisé. They do not allow linking directly to an entry, so you have to search on métier and click through on the results.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Le site de l’Académie française est en cours de rénovation. Le public pourra en découvrir les nouveaux contenus et les nouvelles fonctionnalités en 2012.
When you click OK there you can enter the site, but to get your question answered you have to work through email. If language were mon métier maybe I would do so, but I'm sure zmjezhd has searched the Trésor for it, which is best.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Je ne parle pas français.
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stranger
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stranger
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Then why your earlier post - in French?
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old hand
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old hand
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Leave it to THE MASTER to translate it for you Faldage-s. This is what it reads:"the site of the academy of French is under renovation. The public can pour over its decorations, its new contents and its new functions in 2012."
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yes, but when you click OK in no matter what language you like you get this: link and then you're up till your neck in French. OK? You can search all of it.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Leave it to THE MASTER to translate it for you Faldage-s. This is what it reads:"the site of the academy of French is under renovation. The public can pour over its decorations, its new contents and its new functions in 2012." That much I got. Trying to find any helpful information on the etymology of métier was beyond me.
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stranger
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stranger
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The only French I know is from some very long ago coworkers, so I can't translate hardly any of it. I did Google it and learned that the "Immortals" mentioned on the site are their board members. I guess humility isn't one of their requirements!
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old hand
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old hand
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I did Google it and learned that the "Immortals" mentioned on the site are their board members. I guess humility isn't one of their requirements!  It does sound that way, Hal, but in fact, "Immortel" translates into "for life" - in other words, once elected/appointed to the board, they remain members until they shuffle off this mortal coil. It can also be used to mean "immmortal", as in god-like, or "everlasting". French words so often carry a multitude of meanings.
I'm immortal until proven otherwise
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Carpal Tunnel
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I think the idea behind the courtesy title immortal is that once you're famous enough to be asked to join the Academy, your fame and glory will last forever.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Carpal Tunnel
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I think the idea behind the courtesy title immortal is that once you're famous enough to be asked to join the Academy, your fame and glory will last forever. And your pronouncements will haunt élèves forever.
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