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Joined: May 2010
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: May 2010
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Funny, once things are written online they are there - even if they are 8 years old. It's a bit like words blurted out that can never be unsaid.
People are very sensitive when it comes to language. After all, our language is part of our persona, our personal identity. I find it strange that people can criticize Esperanto but I haven't read anyone here criticizing English, which in my view isn't a very pleasant sounding language (with the exception of the Jamacan dialect). And I stand to my statement that at least parts of English have been artificially contrived by prescriptive grammarians, e.g. the hang up with the "split infinitives" and "dangling prepositions".
And yes, I am quite aware of the fact that Dr. Zamenhof purposely crafted the original version but then he did a remarkable thing: he stepped back and let the language community take over. I find that awesome. And the language community has reacted just as the speakers of all living languages - some things become standard and others don't. For a linguist, it must be interesting to see this happen. It is alot like Nicaraguan signing - watching a young language evolve.
Many neologisms in national languages are crafted (Ipod, walkman, Kleenex, Xerox, etc.) and nobody finds these words artificial (instead we say that they were "coined").
My partner and I prefer to speak Esperanto together even though I speak Portuguese and he speaks American English (neither of us has a fondness for English - though we both wrote our dissertations in it) because it is a special bond between us. And we experience that special bonding when we speak with others around the world in Esperanto, for, with the exception of the some thousand "denaskaj Esperantistoj" (native speakers), all of us have stepped half way to meet each other. None of us are in need of taking on another's culture in order to meet each other, as one must do when using a national language.
So we meet on a common ground, both sides having made an effort to approach the other.
As for the bound and unbound morphemes, all prefixes and sufixes in Esperanto theoretically may be used as root words. The fact that grammatical morphemes are added gives one the freedom of sentence structure.
So you get things like "la onta parado" (the future parade). But one is not bound by the etomology of the word as one is in English. In English (all varieties) there are pretty tight rules as to the use of Greco-Latinate morphemes and Anglo-Saxon morphemes. Thus, "*dogology" as the study of dogs is impossible. And consider the words inconvenient, ignoble, immature, counterclockwise, uncover, disappear, maladroit... I suppose one can find that fascinating and beautiful if one does not have to learn those forms as a second language. I have taught many years of ESOL and I have seen the frustration of students struggling to figure out why one cannot say malconvenient and why the opposite of uncanny is not simply canny. There might be something glorious about all that though it surpasses my understanding.
I am struggling with the same phenomenon in my studies of Chinese. My assistant sort of grins (he is from China) when I construct sentences using the same pattern, only that particular form is not correct. Recently, I said that I had been very ill - I said: Wo bing jile. Well, one may not use "jile" with bing (ill) to mean very, though Haojile (very well) is correct. Again, I suppose that that is very beautiful but it isn't making my command of Chinese move rapidly forward.
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Joined: Feb 2010
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addict
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addict
Joined: Feb 2010
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"I find it strange that people can criticize Esperanto but I haven't read anyone here criticizing English, which in my view isn't a very pleasant sounding language"
Maybe you should read some of the threads, Dr. Robb, before making a comment like this. And, again, identifying the origin of a language is not criticism of a language. I for one find your defensiveness tiring already, so maybe you should unfold your arms, take the frown off your face, and discuss Esperanto with us. We all are here because we enjoy languages and what one can do with them.
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
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>>>I find it strange that people can criticize Esperanto but I haven't read anyone here criticizing English, which in my view isn't a very pleasant sounding language (with the exception of the Jamacan dialect).
I have to agree with beck123, you really should read a lot more threads to make such a comment. You'll find both praises and pans – and not just for the English language but for several other languages.
>>>None of us are in need of taking on another's culture in order to meet each other, as one must do when using a national language.
I don’t agree with this comment. It is not necessary to take on another person’s culture to learn a language. I enjoy learning new languages but remain true to my French Canadian culture from Québec. English speaking Canada does not have the same culture as English speaking U.S.A. or English speaking England. To lump them together because they speak the same language is very narrowminded; it means one is looking at only one aspect of an individual to classify them.
I do think that to learn and understand the idioms, you need to immerse yourself in a culture. For example, there is no way you would know what I mean when I say I need to stop off at the store to get some push-push unless you were a French Québecer. You could get a list and learn the idioms, but you wouldn’t know why the idiom means what it means.
But again, immersing yourself in a culture, is not “taking it on” and does not erase your own culture.
=================================
Do stay for a while. You’ll see that we have members from all over the world, each with his or her own culture; and not abandoning it for one bit.
It may be a little time consuming to read all the back threads though, I mean, we’ve been around since 2000. If you stay a while, you'll quickly find that we are a very diverse group.
And don’t mistake disagreement for aggression. Sometimes, in a heated debate, a post that is meant to be assertive and determined can be misconstrued. Open discussion always works. And wasn’t that the original point of Esperanto?
* P.S. Push-push is hairspray
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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>>>I find it strange that people can criticize Esperanto but I haven't read anyone here criticizing English, which in my view isn't a very pleasant sounding language (with the exception of the Jamacan dialect).
I have to agree with beck123, you really should read a lot more threads to make such a comment. You'll find both praises and pans – and not just for the English language but for several other languages.
I see no need to criticize either language in order to elevate the other. I grew up speaking English and am comfortable with it. It was an accident of my birth. I have criticized it on this board and elsewhere. Especially its inadequate and horrible spelling "system". Does Esperanto's more regular and systematic spelling make it better than English? I doubt it. For me statements about the aesthetic or logical or whatever superiority of one language to another are rather meaningless.
>>>None of us are in need of taking on another's culture in order to meet each other, as one must do when using a national language.
I don’t agree with this comment. It is not necessary to take on another person’s culture to learn a language. I enjoy learning new languages but remain true to my French Canadian culture from Québec. English speaking Canada does not have the same culture as English speaking U.S.A. or English speaking England. To lump them together because they speak the same language is very narrowminded; it means one is looking at only one aspect of an individual to classify them.
I am learning Japanese at the moment. When learning a language you learn a great deal of the dominant culture that speaks that language. I don't see Japanese culture subsuming my American one any time soon. I am learning a lot about Japanese culture though. As Belmarduk says, The are many Anglophone and Francophone cultures in the world. I have spent some time in India and the culture I was immersed in there is quite distinct from the cultures I observed in the UK and the States. There are languages that are separate from culture, too. Latin, Sanskrit, and Esperanto come to mind. It seems to me that most writing in Esperanto is poetry and translations, but this could just be due to ignorance on my part. What is the Great Esperantist Novel?
I have studied Esperanto briefly, as well as a host of other constructed languages. The creation of artificial languages is indeed a fun activity. My major criticism of Esperanto would be that its phonology is difficult for most people whose native language is a non-Indo-European one. As a linguist I have often wondered about the effect of a person's native language on his/her Esperanto grammar and syntax.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Joined: May 2010
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 4 |
edukado.net, lernu.net, esperanto.net, esperanto-usa.org - and the articles in Wikipedia are pretty good
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Joined: May 2010
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: May 2010
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Somebody asked about original literature in Esperanto. Here is a starter:Proza Fikcio / Prose Fiction
Baghy, Julio: Sur sanga tero (UEA)
Baghy, Julio: Viktimoj
Boulton, Marjorie: Okuloj
Bulthuis, Hindrik Jan: Idoj de Orfeo
Engholm, Stellan: Homoj sur la Tero
Forge, Jean: Mr. Tot aĉetas mil okulojn
Francis, John: La granda kaldrono
Francis, John: Vitralo
Lorjak: Regulus
Luyken, Heinrich August: Pro Iŝtar
Matthias, Ulrich: Fajron sentas mi interne
Miyamoto Masao: Naskitaj sur la ruino
Nemere István: Sur kampo granita
Newell, Leonard Nowell: Bakŝis
Oŝlak, Vinko: Jen la sablo el mia klepsidro (UEA)
Piĉ, Karolo: La litomiŝla tombejo (UEA)
Ribillard, Jean: Vivo kaj opinioj de majstro M' Saud (UEA)
Robinson, Kenelm: Se grenereto
Cezaro Rossetti: Kredu min, sinjorino!
Rossetti, Reto: El la maniko (UEA)
Rossetti, Reto kaj Szilágyi, Ferenc: 33 Rakontoj: la esperanta novelarto
Schwartz, Raymond: Kiel akvo de l' rivero
Schwartz, Raymond: Vole, novele
Steele, Trevor: Sed nur fragmento
Szathmari Sandor: Vojaĝo al Kazohinio (UEA)
Szilágyi, Ferenc: Koko krias jam (UEA)
Szilágyi, Ferenc: La granda aventuro
Ŝirjaev, Ivan: Sen titolo
Štimec, Spomenka: Ombro sur interna pejzaĝo
Tóth, Endre: Lappar, la Antikristo
Urbanová, Eli: Hetajro dancas
Varankin, Vladimir: Metropoliteno
Poezio / Poetry
Auld, William (red.): Esperanta antologio
Auld, W., Dinwoodie, J.S., Francis, J., Rosetti, R.: Kvaropo
Auld, William: La Infana Raso
Baghy, Julio: Pilgrimo
Baghy, Julio: Preter la Vivo
Boulton, Marjorie: Eroj
Giŝpling, Miĥael: El Sisma Zono
Goodheir, Albert: Merlo sur menhiro
Hohlov, Nikolao: La tajdo
Kalocsay Kalmán: Streĉita Kordo (UEA)
Kock, Edwin de: Fajro sur mia Lango (UEA)
Kurzens, Nikolai: Mia Spektro
Maura, G.E.: Duonvoĉe
Miĥalski, Eŭgeno: Plena Poemaro
Miyamoto Masao: Invit' al Japanesko (UEA)
Montagut, Abel: Poemo de Utnoa
Neves, Kamaĉo, Dek, Fernández: Ibere Libere
Peneter, Peter: Sekretaj Sonetoj (en Libro de Amo)
Privat, Edmond: Tra l' silento
Ragnarsson, Baldur: Ŝtupoj sen Nomo
Rossetti, Reto: Pinta Krajono (UEA)
Sadler, Victor: Memkritiko
Schwartz, Raymond: La Stranga Butiko
Schwartz, Raymond: Verdkata Testamento (UEA)
Su, Armand: Poemoj de Armand Su
Tarkony Lajos: Soifo
Ungar, Krys: Meznokto Metropola
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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What is Esperanto for "Gee Whiz"?
Impressive.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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Joined: Jun 2006
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
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Hendrik Jan Bulthuis (1865-1945), ( Hindrik Jan Bulthoys ) was a Dutchman, customs official, author, and translator of more than thirty works. One of his novels, Idoj de Orfejo (Children of Orpheus) is listed in William Auld's Basic Esperanto Reading List.
Does it not go a bit far to also translate an author's name?
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
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Somebody asked about original literature in Esperanto.
Somebody? Kiel diras oni "etiketo" en Esperantujo? Anyway, nice list (In the meantime I have been looking over some of the literature articles on the Esperanto Vikipedio.) I don't see Claude Piron on your list. Another question: how many Esperanto novels have been translated into English or other languages?
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Joined: May 2010
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: May 2010
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"I find it strange that people can criticize Esperanto but I haven't read anyone here criticizing English, which in my view isn't a very pleasant sounding language"
Maybe you should read some of the threads, Dr. Robb, before making a comment like this. And, again, identifying the origin of a language is not criticism of a language. I for one find your defensiveness tiring already, so maybe you should unfold your arms, take the frown off your face, and discuss Esperanto with us. We all are here because we enjoy languages and what one can do with them. English Language is not that unpleasant as you think. Your right that we shouldn't judge a Language because it help us in many things. Exactly, we must enjoy and explore Language, though English Language is much interesting.
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