#37522
08/16/2001 2:58 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
One of the major problems encountered in time travel is not that of accidentally becoming your own father or mother. There is no problem involved in becoming your own father or mother that a broadminded and well-adjusted family can't cope with.
There is a story by Robert Heinlein called something like "By His Bootstraps", where somebody becomes his/her own father and mother, having been born with gonads of both sexes.
Bingley
Bingley
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#37523
08/16/2001 4:41 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
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old hand
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entity that ceases to exist at the identical point at which it is created.
The very word cease would not exist without the notion of a time continuum... and an identical point in what?
People also all to glibly speak of "before the Big Bang".. When there is no time, there is no "before" nor "after".
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#37524
08/16/2001 4:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
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old hand
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Logarithmic time? Further explanation
It means that in terms of my subjective experience, the age points 1 year, 2 years, 4, 8, 16, 32 years... appear roughly equally spaced, i.e. the intervals hold similar quantities of time-bound material. When I try to recount my life, I spend similar amounts of time for each of these intervals, even though they were lengthening in terms of calendar time..
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#37525
08/16/2001 5:01 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Even though I am not a huge fan of T.S. Eliot I loved this one work of his which I copied to hang on my wall in my young adulthood, either it is untitled or I don't recall it (and I could be a little off from the original):
If Time and Space as sages say
Are things that cannot be,
The sun which never feels decay
No greater is than we.
So why, love, should we ever pray
To live a century?
The butterfly that's lived a day
Has lived eternity.
--T.S. Eliot
>The Big Bang<...so what exploded?
>Time Travel<... While believing in the possibilities of extra-dimensional travel, I also find it difficult to believe that if indeed, time travel exists in some "future" society (and even with a sworn and heightened wisdom toward the non-tampering of history), that someone could resist going back to WWI and making sure that Adolph Hitler was killed in the trenches.
>I'll see your Dylan and Donne and Wordsworth and raise you a Eugene O'Neill -- from his play Long Day's Journey Into Night -- Edmund Tyrone's monologue in conversation with his father, James Tyrone (note: Edmund is sick with tuberculosis):
EDMUND
You've just told me some high spots in your memories. Want to hear mine? They're all connected with the sea. Here's one. When I was on the Squarehead square rigger, bound for Buenos Aires. Full moon in the Trades. The old hooker driving fourteen knots. I lay on the bowsprit, facing astern, with the water foaming into spume under me, the masts with every sail white in the moonlight, towering high above me. I became drunk with the beauty and singing rhythm of it, and for a moment I lost myself--actually lost my life. I was set free! I dissolved in the sea, became white sails and flying spray, became beauty and rhythm, became moonlight and the ship and the high dim-starred sky! I belonged, without past or future, within peace and unity and a wild joy, within something greater than my own life, or the life of Man, to life itself! To God, if you want to put it that way. Then another time, on the American Line, when I was lookout on the crow's nest in the dawn watch. A calm sea, that time. Only a lazy ground swell and a slow drowsy roll of the ship. The passengers asleep and none of the crew in sight. No sound of man. Black smoke pouring from the funnels behind and beneath me. Dreaming, not keeping lookout, feeling alone, and above, and apart, watching the dawn creep like a painted dream over the sky and sea which slept together. Then the moment of ecstatic freedom came. The peace, the end of the quest, the last harbor, the joy of belonging to a fulfillment beyond men's lousy, pitiful, greedy fears and hopes and dreams! And several other times in my life, when I was swimming far out, or lying alone on a beach, I have had the same experience. Became the sun, the hot sand, green seaweed anchored to a rock, swaying in the tide. Like a saint's vision of beatitude. Like the veil of things as they seem drawn back by an unseen hand. For a second you see--and seeing the secret, are the secret. For a second there is meaning! Then the hand let's the veil fall and you are alone, lost in the fog again, and you stumble on toward nowhere, for no good reason!
He grins wryly
It was a great mistake, my being born a man, I would have been much more successful as a sea gull or a fish. As it is, I will always be a stranger who never feels at home, who does not really want and is not really wanted, who can never belong, who must always be a little in love with death!
TYRONE
Stares at him--impressed.
Yes, there's the makings of a poet in you all right.
Then protesting uneasily
But that's a morbid craziness about not being wanted and loving death.
EDMUND
Sardonically
The makings of a poet. No, I'm afraid I'm like the guy who is always panhandling for a smoke. He hasn't even got the makings. He's got only the habit. I couldn't touch what I tried to tell you just now. I just stammered. That's the best I'll ever do. I mean, if I live. Stammering is the native eloquence of us fog people.
(c) 1955 by Carlotta Monterey O'Neill, All rights reserved under International and Pan-American Copyright Conventions.
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#37526
08/16/2001 8:08 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
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old hand
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>Sooo. …?
>Well, I stood for what seemed an infinite time upon the edge of the ridge panting and gazing off into the distance then slowly cast my view downwards. The tremendous drop left me breathless. The slope ran from below my feet, in a sheer drop to the sleepy valley below. It was then I realized, that such a four-minute moment represented one of the most sublime experiences a human can have. The perspective, the point of view, was strictly mine.
Huddled in the valley below, dotting the grassy floor were numerous sleepy farmhouses and cottages where fires were being stoked, and things slowly stirring. Previously, I had never dared ask why I was, or who I was, but that day brought me some resolve, or at least the knowledge not to need to ask. Fulfilment always comes in petite, bite-sized doses – occurring passim. Those who attempt to gain more than their share at any one time have no way to use or channel it; they merely feel the fleeting instant slip through their grasp. As such things continue, and, bit-by-bit, we learn the windings of the road.
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#37527
08/16/2001 9:33 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
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Rhub. entity that ceases to exist at the identical point at which it is created.
wseiberThe very word cease would not exist without the notion of a time continuum... and an identical point in what?
which does, perhaps, demonstrate the paucity of the language we have at our command to describe what is, to us poor beasts, the indescribable.
W'ON - a wonderful passage - thank you for that
b-y - also very moving
The two of you have gone a long way to disproving my remarks, above, about the paucity of our language!
Jackie - Curses - you spotted my red herring straight away! It doesn't actually™ affect my baisc argument, though!
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#37528
08/16/2001 1:39 PM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
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btw, being partially of native american descent myself, i once read about an [N.A.] indian culture whose language included absolutely no provisions for the concept of past, present or future... anyone know something about this?
Wow, Caradea. Which nation do your ancestors come from?
I have no idea of which nation uses only one tense but it is quite similar to to the Japanese language. It has no tenses either. Einstein's Theory of Relativity must have been hell for them to translate!!!
It sounds plausible that there was a common belief that crossed the Pacific rim over the millenia and embedded itself into the many developing languages of the time.
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#37529
08/16/2001 2:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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the Japanese language...has no tenses either
My memory of this is a little unclear, mostly because there's not too much for me to remember, but.
(And a little googling seems to have bolstered my paucitic memory) Japanese has more or less two tenses, past and non-past. Usage is not through changes made directly to the verb (and this can be a source of confusion for those of us who do change the form of words for grammatical purposes) but by use of particles. This technique is used for most grammatical functions in Japanese, including markers showing what we, with our dependency on the ancient Latin grammarians, would call case structure. The failure(sic) of a language to change the form of a verb to recognize past/present/future or perfection/imperfection does not necessarily imply that the speakers of that language have a sense of time radically different from (than, nor) ours. We could, for example, in English say "I go to the store yesterday/tomorrow" and get across the idea of past or future without changing the form of the verb to go. Such things are accomplished in other languages that do not feel the need to change the form of the verb in the process.
I suppose one could define tense as the alteration of the form of a word for the grammatical purpose of indicating relative time, but to extrapolate a lack of time sense in the speakers of a language from
the lack of tense in that language is, in my opinion, unwarranted.
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#37530
08/16/2001 2:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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>The Big Bang<...so what exploded? one more <ahem> time... pure energy >Time Travel< There was a young lady of Wight
who travelled much faster than light.
She departed one day,
in a relative way,
and arrived on the previous night.it almost certainly isn't possible... no matter how far in the future it might be invented, someone will have finally traveled back and spilled the beans. unless the alternate histories theory is true....
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#37531
08/16/2001 3:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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alternate histories
Ooh! Multiverses! Way cool, tsuwm!
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#37532
08/16/2001 3:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
! Multiverses
Like The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner d'ye mean?
or Eskimo Nell ?
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#37533
08/16/2001 4:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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If someone in the future travels back in time and alters history we couldn't know about (the alteration) it if it happens(ed)... Since the "first time" could possibly erase the potential for it to happen again (or at all)... the suggestion that time is not linear by nature, only perspective, and that time travel (backward) is impossible, must follow. ...alternate histories theory...Given the constant proof of "perception is reality" that flies in the face of logic... I'm starting to believe it...  edit-How fitting it was that the e-mail I had waiting for me after posting this was tsuwm's wwftd...
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#37534
08/16/2001 4:32 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Re: tsuwm little limerick...
i did that-- really-- when i flew home to NY from Norita, i left Japan at 3PM on a sunday afternoon, and got to NY at 1PM the same sunday-- after flying for 14 hours! (and let me tell you it is very disconcerting!) so i got home to NY, 2 hours before i left japan.
and as for multiverses-- they have pretty much been proven by quantum physics.. but i know enough about that to know i don't understand it-- but some times i think i do (which proves i can't possible understand it!)
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#37535
08/16/2001 6:07 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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> I have never heard any suggestion that time is demonstrably lacking in uniformity. The Almighty seems to have a steady foot on the accelerator pedal.
To get back to the original idea behind this thread, there was a story in the paper yesterday that some physicists have "determined" that certain constants may not be constant after all. The constant in question, which I cannot remember having heard of before, is alleged to have changed by one part in a couple hundred thousand during the life of the universe. There was speculation that this may mean that, for instance, the speed of light may change or that pi might be something more or less than 3.14159.................. Had to do with the aging of the universe, I think, though I couldn't follow as much of it as I would have liked.
TEd
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#37536
08/16/2001 6:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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This has been the best thread to read in AWADtalk for months. I am pretty convinced that despite the obvious intelligence, forethought, and cerebral fortitude of the AWADcrowd, we are probably missing what is TRUE by about 3.14 lightyears. I envision that when we wake from the sleep of this life, we will look around in amazement at how far off our greatest minds were.
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#37537
08/16/2001 7:39 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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>...we will look around in amazement at how far off our greatest minds were. wassamatta-u, has the superstring theory thrown you for a loop? http://www.superstringtheory.com/
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#37538
08/16/2001 7:58 PM
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Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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>there was a story in the paper yesterday that some physicists have "determined" that certain constants may not be constant after all. this isn't the whole story that is in the NYTimes (e.g.), but it gives you a taste. (for those of you who've registered at the Times, search for "speed of light") http://www.pioneerplanet.com/seven-days/wed/news/docs/110749.htm
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#37539
08/17/2001 1:13 AM
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Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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The Superstring link: thank you, tsuwm, thank you!!!
Immediate bookmark! Grand, just GRAND! Perfectly easy to comprehend for non-scientists. Ex: The so-called "Newton's Laws of Motion" are not abstract laws that Nature is somehow forced to obey, but the observed behavior of Nature that is described in the language of mathematics. In Newton's time, theory and experiment went together.And this: General relativity has had many observational successes that proved its worth as a description of Nature, but two of the predictions of this theory have staggered the public and scientific imaginations: the expanding Universe, and black holes. Both have been observed, and both encapsulate issues that, at least in the mathematics, brush up against the very nature of reality and existence. And, In order to include fermions in string theory, there must be a special kind of symmetry called supersymmetry, which means for every boson (particle that transmits a force) there is a corresponding fermion (particle that makes up matter). Is this cool, or what?? I'm going to stop and post this now, before I quote the entire link. Bless you,
my dear, for showing me how to find this.
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#37540
08/17/2001 5:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 387
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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no matter how far in the future it might be invented, someone will have finally traveled back and spilled the beans.
Don't you know, Earthman, that Time fits together like a jigsaw puzzle? Lucky for you I took Time in college back in 1705.
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#37541
08/17/2001 5:35 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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unless the alternate histories theory is true...*This was the subject of a recent Discover article. http://www.discover.com/science_news/Current Issue ...Best Kept Secret Quantum Shmantum
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#37542
08/17/2001 5:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Dear RC: your ballad of Eskimo Nell begins a bit like the Ancient Mariner, but the allusions are quite different. Thoxe who wish to may check it out at: http://www.allegedlyfunny.com/eskimo.html Not parlor talk.As a matter of fact it is so vile I probably should have erased the URL. You have been warned.
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#37543
08/18/2001 7:45 PM
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Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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I was reading the string theory link, and decided I'd better try to find a good def. of quantum mechanics, so I looked in the Academic Press Dictionary of Science and Technology, available on-line thru RefDesk.
quantum mechanics Physics. a modern field in physics that is based on the premise that energy and momentum are quantized and that, at the atomic and subatomic levels, the effects of quantization are significant; this theory apparently supersedes classical theory.
The use of the word momentum aroused my curiosity, and I wondered what the difference between that and motion was.
Culling through no less than 125 entries for different types of motion and 25 for momentum, I got from the same dictionary:
motion Science. 1. the act of moving; the passage of a body from one place to another.the act of moving; the passage of a body from one place to another. 2. a bodily movement.a bodily movement. 3. the ability to move.the ability to move. Mechanics. a change in the position of a physical system over time.
momentum plural, momenta. Science. the general effect of an ongoing motion or process. Mechanics. a vector quantity that is conserved in collisions between particles and in closed systems; in classical mechanics it is equal to the mass times the velocity of a body, or the vector sum of this product over all the components of a system.
So--does time have motion or momentum? Are there other def.'s that are better suited for Time? Time certainly moves (so say I), yet has no body. If it has momentum, where is the effect shown? On Time, or on...us and our world? Oh, I think this one is beyond me... [hand feebly waving above the morass e]
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#37544
08/19/2001 7:20 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
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> If it has momentum, where is the effect shown?
The effect shown is relative to your perspective :-)
Stumbling further into the realm of abstract thought, I'll offer this up for scrutiny:
The universe we mold around this, one of a multi-dimensional speckles of reality resonates,
or you might say it creates, an interference pattern within the fabric of space.
If we were to look closely at an individual human being,
we would find that the body is made up of a mass resonalting particles and is in itself a universe.
All information exists here and now within are own consciousness.
There are places we can go within our consciousness that unite our being with the cosmos.
We need to align our minds with the cosmic mind, if we are going to find any of the purposes of our existence,
or to find answers to some of the unexplained problems,
especially now, as we are heading towards one of the most important increments in the history of our time here.
(a guy called gerald)
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#37545
08/19/2001 10:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3
stranger
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stranger
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What about the quantum foam theory? This postulation suggests that time can be discontinuous in very small packets (10 to the minus 43rd of a second - Plank time) and that time turns back on itself (thus stopping). At this point there supposedly is enough energy from quantum fluctuations to break down space and time into "foaminess" that could possibly be navigated from one bubble to the next.
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#37546
08/20/2001 1:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Google turned up this, a portion of a lecture from the physics dep't. at UT (the U. of Tennessee):
The Planck Scale
But we have already seen that if the distance scales become short enough (of atomic dimensions or smaller), the theory of quantum mechanics must be used. Therefore, as we extrapolate back in time to the beginning of the Universe, eventually one would reach a state of sufficient temperature and density that a fully quantum mechanical theory of gravitation would be required. This is called the Planck era, and the corresponding scales of distance, energy, and time are called the Planck scale.
The Planck Scale
Quantity Value
Planck Mass 1.2 x 1019 GeV/c2
Planck Length 1.6 x 10-33 cm
Planck Time 5.4 x 10-44 s
Planck Temperature 1.4 x 1032 K
The Planck scale corresponds to incredibly small distances (or equivalently, incredibly large energies).
I am not capable of interpreting the numbers. I just thought you all might like a def. of the Planck scale.
Quantum foam, Mary? Whoa, I never heard that one--thanks!
Sounds weird, but I am in no position to argue against it.
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#37547
08/20/2001 4:31 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Depends on how high the pirate ship is.
TEd
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"Time does not flow. Other times are just special cases of other universes." - David Deutsch, The Fabric of Reality
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Carpal Tunnel
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Really old thread: ten years.
The concept of alternate universes is dealt with in
the TV show "Fringe", not too well, but it is the
subject matter, and quite a concept.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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five years on from this thread: the flow of time
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Haha alternative universes are a pet interest of mine (along with numerous other SF related things) watched a great program a few years back about all the different theories of them; in an hours program they covered the "Big Five" in general detail...always brings to mind the Kerr solution and the possibility that that could lead to visiting an alternate universe...
----The next sentence is true. The previous sentence is false----
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Carpal Tunnel
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Or the concept that in a drop of rain water there could
be a whole other universe. Or this universe is in, say,
a drop of water, being watched by others.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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I always liked the end of Men In Black films, where they are a universe in a marble or in a locker...always made me laugh
----The next sentence is true. The previous sentence is false----
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I never really paid much attention to the MIB movies, but
what you say about the universe in a marble could be apt
for a number of movies. Perhaps the Mad Max bunch, or
even LOTR.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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Pooh-Bah
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I always liked the end of Men In Black films, where they are a universe in a marble or in a locker...always made me laugh And in the book Horton Hear A Who! by Dr Seuss. Remember, a whole planet of people existing on a speck of dust on a flower...."even though you can’t see or hear them at all, a person’s a person, no matter how small."
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Carpal Tunnel
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I always liked the end of Men In Black films, where they are a universe in a marble or in a locker...always made me laugh And in the book Horton Hear A Who! by Dr Seuss. Remember, a whole planet of people existing on a speck of dust on a flower...."even though you can’t see or hear them at all, a person’s a person, no matter how small." Well, that is my idea of the raindrop in literature form. Never read Seuss, however.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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Never read Seuss, however.
really? O.o
formerly known as etaoin...
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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....
Never read Seuss...... OMG...how could you not have. This was one of my kids favourite.... Green Eggs and Ham
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Carpal Tunnel
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Well......sorry, still am not going to read it, unless that
was the whole of it.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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veteran
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I read "Hop on Pop" to my kids dozens and dozens and dozens of times - along with "Red Fish, Blue Fish" and "The Butter Battle Book." I sometimes still call my youngest (now 18) "My Daisy Head Maisy." http://www.mfwi.org/mfwi/Recordings/HopOnPop.pdfOTOH, "The Sneetches" is prophecy. While I usually tutor several hours a week in math, I had about 15 minutes of tutoring an ESL student on an essay a month or so ago. Her assignment was to write a persuasive essay with supporting evidence to support or reject "Designer Babies." She had been working on the essay for days and had only written half a paragraph on the con side, her supporting evidence being that it is "against god." I suggested she first write an outline of her paper and made a reference to "Sneetches" which she did not understand. I then recommended she read it. In fact, I think every HS graduate ought to have read it (though I had until years later myself).
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
Well......sorry, still am not going to read it, unless that
was the whole of it. try "The Lorax". a bit more depth...
formerly known as etaoin...
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