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I am a former teacher and a writer of lessons for youth. I am trying to track down a new writing convention in spacing sentences.
When I was young, back in the days before White Out, the rule was this: 1 space between words, 2 words between sentences and 3 spaces to indent paragraphs. It was simple and easy to remember.
Nowadays, all over the 'net, including Wordsmith, the new writing convention is one space between sentences. It seems to be a new rule: 1 spacebar between words and sentences and 1 carriage return between paragraphs. ("And what the heck is a "carriage return" anyway?" say the kids. )
Am I correct in this observation, or is something else happening? Are people still following the old rule or is some feature of the internet daemon shortening the spaces between sentences?
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I learned it the way you did. Happy I am not teaching anymore.
Welcome
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I learned the same thing. What changed it was not the Internet, per se, but the instantiation of proportional fonts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing"With the introduction of proportional fonts in computers, double sentence spacing became obsolete.[13]" ... and later ... "Most modern literature on typography says that double spacing is wrong,[18] but some non-typographical sources indicate that it could be used on a typewriter or with a monospaced font.[19]"
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I learned the same thing. What changed it was not the Internet, per se, but the instantiation of proportional fonts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing"With the introduction of proportional fonts in computers, double sentence spacing became obsolete.[13]" ... and later ... "Most modern literature on typography says that double spacing is wrong,[18] but some non-typographical sources indicate that it could be used on a typewriter or with a monospaced font.[19]" Fascinating, thanks.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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I learned the same thing. What changed it was not the Internet, per se, but the instantiation of proportional fonts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing"With the introduction of proportional fonts in computers, double sentence spacing became obsolete.[13]" ... and later ... "Most modern literature on typography says that double spacing is wrong,[18] but some non-typographical sources indicate that it could be used on a typewriter or with a monospaced font.[19]" This rationale makes absolutely no sense to me. If the reason for double spacing between sentences was to make it easier to see that it was a space between sentences the fact that the double space in a monospaced font is greater than that in a proportional font would make it more critical to double space in a proportional font. The period would seem to be more easily lost in a proportional font since it takes up less space than it would in a monospaced font. It seems to me more like it is just the fashion in house style and for some reason has gained the status of inviolable rule. Personally I find double spacing between sentences in proportional fonts much easier to read.
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In some softwares, pressing space twice after a word automatically inserts a full stop/period.
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I hadn't seen that one. HTML generally compresses two or more spaces to one unless you add explicit non-breaking spaces.
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HTML generally compresses two or more spaces to one unless you add explicit non-breaking spaces.
Some applications, like FrameMaker, also get rid of the "two spaces" unless you muck with the defaults.
A convention is just that. Conventions change. Gone today are the mid dots and virgules of the days of yore ... It's amazing the things we cling to learned in our adolescence.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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stranger
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Thanks, everyone. You are wonderful. I did come to the right group for help. Susan
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I was told a few years ago at a seminar that our habit of double spacing after a sentence was a carry-over from the manuscript/codex days, which, in my experience, is exactly the opposite of the truth. Not only were these ancient texts not double-spaced between sentences, they used NO spaces (and often no punctuation) between sentences. So this may simply be an evolving convention with no rational source, driven by the same fewer-keystrokes-is-better mentality as "Im 1 and ur 1 2" [period intentionally missing]
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
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Just noticed this old thread, well not so old, but not
current, as it were.
When I was taught typing back after the dinosaurs left, we
were taught to double space at the end of each sentence, and
at the end of each paragraph, creating a nice white space
between paragraphs. Paragraphs were indented also.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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I learned that paragraphs should be indented with a tab set at five spaces. I'd say that conventions are not universal, so please yourself, to the extent that tools and bosses allow. I follow conventions that make sense to me, or that I haven't thought about, skip those that don't.
I usually indicate paragraphs these days with double returns (not carriage returns) with no indent, but there are times I indent, and sometimes even use both methods. Amount of indent, if any, I determine by eye. Most of the publications I set up or write for are programs for performing arts, and I have nearly free rein.
Peter
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I learned that paragraphs should be indented with a tab set at five spaces. I'd say that conventions are not universal, so please yourself, to the extent that tools and bosses allow. I follow conventions that make sense to me, or that I haven't thought about, skip those that don't.
I think one should be consistent in the proper context. When I lived in Germany I slowly became aware of how different their typewriting conventions were from ours. They would double space letters to indicate emphasis, whereas we would underline a word or phrase. Then there's the whole punctuation inside or outside of the quotation marks (or whatever punctuation is used to indicate reported speech). Having worked as a writer for over twenty years, I am happy to follow the written conventions of those who pay me at the end of the week. Another great convention is whether to use a serial (aka Oxford) comma in lists of three or more words or phrases. People really seem to get bent out of shape on that one. The humorous thing, to me, is that these orthographic conventions are pretty much arbitrary and historical in nature, but we all like to think that something we've been doing for years has purpose and meaning, and that the language would suffer without it.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I learned 5 space indentation at the beginning of each
paragraph as well. Also double space between paragraphs.
I suppose that was pretty much standard back in typing
classes back in the day.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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They would double space letters to indicate emphasis, whereas we would underline a word or phrase.
We also learned to double space after the period (.) of
one sentence before beginning the next sentence. The
punctuation inside or outside a quotation is another
interesting thing. Also use of semi-colons was intriguing.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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I usually indicate paragraphs these days with double returns (not carriage returns) with no indent, but there are times I indent, and sometimes even use both methods. Amount of indent, if any, I determine by eye.
This is the first post I am writing from work. This is work related anyway: so no guilt trip here. Is the modern way not to have an indentation in the beginning of the paragraph. I have stopped indenting the beginning of a paragraph for sometime now and had not even realise this. I learnt paragraph indentations in school. Did this become obsolete when computers arrived? Most of the publications I set up or write for are programs for performing arts, and I have nearly free rein.
Peter Also now snucking in one non-work related bit: The publications you work on could not be scripts then. Plays and film scripts are hugely formatted. You have US and UK formats with character names in the middle or at one side, proper place for directions etc. etc. I prefer the UK format.
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No, I have not worked on scripts. As an actor, I have to say that I find putting the character name in the center is ridiculous. Whoever established that format was not an actor. Or not one I care to work with! In fact, it seems that format is more important than content. What a world.
Peter
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As an actor, I have to say that I find putting the character name in the center is ridiculous.
It's pretty much standard in all of the screenplays I've ever seen. It's also a convention that a page maps to about a minute of film time. Remember, in filming the 1 to 3 minutes of actually usable footage per day of a typical Hollywood film that means one to three pages of a screenplay being consumed.
Whoever established that format was not an actor. Or not one I care to work with! In fact, it seems that format is more important than content. What a world.
The format developed over the years and during the the studio period in US film productions. I'm pretty sure it was a long and slow process and not just anybody is responsible for it. The major advantage of the screenplay format is there is plenty of white space to utilize for additions and director's notes. In fact, screenplays change a lot during the filming of a movie. Plays not as much (except for new ones).
In fact, another convention of screenplays is that any changes made are printed on differently colored paper (more of a teleplay convention), so people know at a glance when something has been added. Those additions get added to the scripts in the morning and often change the physical page count.
It is indeed quite a world.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I learned something here: a page amounts to a minute.
You see scripts in producers hands and wonder how much
they actually use. Makes sense now.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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The major advantage of the screenplay format is there is plenty of white space to utilize for additions and director's notes.
Is that the reason? I could never figure out why they formated it this way. Now I know.
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Is that the reason? I could never figure out why they formated it this way. Now I know.
Again, I do not know if that is the reason the format developed, but I have observed that all that whitespace gets used by writers, directors, actors, et al.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I guess I am learning that too. I've wondered.
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Not that this has anything to do with screenwriters, but
I've notice news anchors have lots of white space, sometimes
a half page or more, on the paper in front of them during
a news broadcast.
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... but I have observed that all that whitespace gets used by writers, directors, actors, et al. Is white space more important or the unrestricted back and forth of the dialogue? Isn't it better to read: "I don't care." "F*** you!" Instead of reading this : "I don't care." Mark "F*** you! Doesn't it dilute the tension? [Just askin]
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In a play or movie the tension doesn't have to show up on the page, that's what actors and directors are for! The sooner the actor gets rid of the page entirely, the better for everybody.
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Pooh-Bah
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Because I use a computer and often 'borrow' passages from other material, I tend to select 'word wrap' in my word documents. This lines up words on both sides of the page and I notice that it tends to make subtle 'extra' spaces between words in a line so words are not 'split' unnecessary. I think the end look is neat.
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Because I use a computer and often 'borrow' passages from other material, I tend to select 'word wrap' in my word documents. This lines up words on both sides of the page and I notice that it tends to make subtle 'extra' spaces between words in a line so words are not 'split' unnecessary. I think the end look is neat. This will hold if you have chosen right AND left justification. The spaces are spread out equally. It can be a pain if you are in an environment that has long strings of characters giving you three of four words in a line and what looks like eight or more spaces between the words.
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Is white space more important or the unrestricted back and forth of the dialogue?
Well, one might as well ask if a play (dramatic performance) is the play (the script). To me a text is a pale representation of the piece performed.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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When you watch the 'extras' on a DVD, and an actor says
something like: "They gave me the script, and I read it,
and I knew it was for me", I've often wondered if they
loved the script alone, or if they saw themselves doing
the part and making it their own?
----please, draw me a sheep----
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I remember reading an interview with an actor once where he said (I'm paraphrasing here) "well my mate, he gave me this script and it said - scene in bar, talk, offense, bar fight (improvise everything else) - and I was well up for that, so yeah that's why I chose to do this film"
----The next sentence is true. The previous sentence is false----
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Talking of actors and pubs: this is Al Pacino's favourite joke as told by Johnny Depp: a skeleton goes into a pub and orders a beer and a mop. ROTFLMAO
Edited to add: this joke has such pathos.
Last edited by Avy; 03/02/2011 2:14 PM.
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HAHA I love that joke...I have heard it but couln't remember how it ended...I always forget to say the mop but I start laughing and people look at me funny - they think I am laughing at a skeleton in a bar...
----The next sentence is true. The previous sentence is false----
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In a play or movie the tension doesn't have to show up on the page, that's what actors and directors are for! The sooner the actor gets rid of the page entirely, the better for everybody. Hi Trom. Just asking: when tension does show up on page, do you as an actor get put off. Do you think the writer is treading on your territory. I"m asking because I have till now thought tension in written dialogue is a good thing. I want to know whether I was wrong in thinking that.
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Talking of actors and pubs: this is Al Pacino's favourite joke as told by Johnny Depp: a skeleton goes into a pub and orders a beer and a mop. ROTFLMAO
Edited to add: this joke has such pathos. ROTFLMAO; I think we had this before on the site, but I forgot what it means. I don't text and that may be the reason.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off
formerly known as etaoin...
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If I had access I'd give you a button reading:
"Luke's Translator". Thanks.
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Hi Trom. Just asking: when tension does show up on page, do you as an actor get put off. Do you think the writer is treading on your territory. I"m asking because I have till now thought tension in written dialogue is a good thing. I want to know whether I was wrong in thinking that.
I'm not quite sure if this is what you are asking: ROLLO: (Stunned, eyes widening, he slowly sets his coffee cup onto the table) You told her what?is too much from the playwright. In a screenplay? I don't know, I've only done one movie, with the writer in the lead role and buddies with the director. ROLLO: (Stunned) You told her what?is probably too much: the dialog makes it obvious, and it's up to the director and the actor how best to fit it to the style of the production. The way it actually looks on the page is irrelevant. As zmjezhd says, the text is just text, not a play, any more than a score is a symphony. It's a map, not the terrain itself. My favorite director usually tells us to ignore the playwright's stage directions.
Last edited by Tromboniator; 03/03/2011 8:10 PM. Reason: Addendum
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That I agree with. The writer has no business writing stage directions anyway -IMHO. I meant the tension in the dialogue - in writing the words of the dialogue to create tension/emotion. Sometimes the words of some playwrights are so strong I wonder if they leave no place for the actor to work. Do you prefer dialogue that works just for the plot rather than strongly suggests the character because character is what you will do and the strong suggestion in the words of the dialogue gives you no room to experiment. It is easy for a writer to nail a character so that there room left for pluralism. If I am not clear enough, I'll just drop this. I enjoyed reading your example. Funnee.  I wanted to ask another question about acting, and acting is about words and langauge...
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