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Many found in Asia and Europe. A famous one in St. Peter
Square, Rome. I wonder if the Rosetta Stone is considered
to be a stele?
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Em--did it come from a pillar? Acc'g. to the def., I think a stele has to be a pillar of some kind.
And boy, did I get a surprise: he said for formulae, antennae, etc., the last syllable is pronounced lee. I have always said lay.
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and I thought it was 'lie' (which is given as a variant).
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The Rosetta stone is considered a stele. This part of ancient scripture isn't. Link @Jackie. stelay- the European approach.
Last edited by BranShea; 02/22/2011 10:37 AM.
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The Rosetta Stone which helped scholars translate
Egyptian hieroglyphics comes from a stele, then?
I know it was written in three languages. Of course
I could google it, I know.
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It calls it a stele in the very first sentence. Amazing find. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone
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stranger
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Unusual plurals?
How about we first learn the correct use of common plurals??
I still get upset when they say "the news is...", "the data is in..."
And regarding pronouncing the Latin plural --ae: I fear that the old Romans would not have understood us.
Alexa Fleckenstein M.D., physician, author.
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An oft heard comment back in high school Latin:
Latin killed the Romans and it's killing me. We cannot
even think in the terms or manner Latin speaks.
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Unusual plurals?
How about we first learn the correct use of common plurals??
I still get upset when they say "the news is...", "the data is in..."
And regarding pronouncing the Latin plural --ae: I fear that the old Romans would not have understood us.
Alexa Fleckenstein M.D., physician, author. is a mass singular. Data is often a mass singular. We're not liable to run into many old Romans to misunderstand us. The pronunciation of AE in Latin changed during the Middle Ages. I ran a Google ngram on 'the news is' vs. 'the news are'. I was surprised at the high frequency of the latter.
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That ngram is interesting. I've never heard the
news are. And we have really poor news anchors here often.
But even they don't say that.
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stranger
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I'd be happy if people would just learn that adding -s or -es, as a general rule, makes a word plural. Adding 's makes it possessive. It's unbelievable how often I see this mistake, even in magazines and newspapers (I won't count online, because everything there is suspect anyway.)
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True, like in Churches: St. Margaret's Church, St. Paul's
London, St. Peter's Basilica. Margaret, Paul, Peter have
long been dead. But it is common place, and I think
we have discussed this apostrophe S on places before.
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The pronunciation of AE in Latin changed during the Middle Ages.
A little farther back in time, like in the Dark Ages.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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it's amazing how a word like the Dark Ages can conjure up
so many images. In Europe it was "dark" indeed, other
than the monks copying book after book. I think of the
Book of Kells in Ireland, or the movie with Sean Connery
and Christian Slater: Eco's The Name of the Rose.
And in the East, Avicenna and medicine. Interesting in
light of the changes taking place there.
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it's amazing how a word like the Dark Ages can conjure up
so many images.
Yes, I was using the term to refer to that period around the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the fifth century and lasting a century or two depending on where in Europe. I should have just used dates.
Most Romans spoke Vulgar Latin which started to diverge from Classical Latin in phonology and syntax starting in the late Republic (around 100 - 50 BCE). The first texts in a Romance language (kind of proto-French) show up in the Strasbourg oaths in the 9th century.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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That really interests me. Can you give a description
between the dates you mention. I presume Latin was still
the "lingua franca" of Rome Empire until its fall?
I understand how the empire fragmented, but Latin just
devolved into the Romance languages? No communication
between areas of Europe caused this? What are the
Strasbourg oaths?
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That really interests me. Can you give a description
between the dates you mention. I presume Latin was still
the "lingua franca" of Rome Empire until its fall?Latin remained the "official" language of the Western Roman Empire, but in the East Koine Greek was used. (Koine Greek is to Classical Greek as Vulgar Latin is to Classical Latin; the only difference being that Koine was written down.) Final nasals (e.g., in the singular accusative - am, - um became nasalized vowels, before disappearing altogether. The diphthong ae was probably being pronounced commonly as /ɛ/ rather than /aj/ in Caesar's time. There are a bunch of other differences. One I remember from syntax is the use of quia with the indicative mood rather than the complex system of subjunctive with a different conjunction. I understand how the empire fragmented, but Latin just
devolved into the Romance languages? No communication
between areas of Europe caused this?Well, I won't use the term "devolved". All the modern Romance languages are later forms of (Vulgar) Latin. The breakdown in communication exacerbated the change, but did not cause it. Languages change on their own. Having a standardized language and an orthography help to fix a language from change over a longer period than an unwritten one, but look how far many spoken forms of English are from the main national standards. What are the Strasbourg oaths?"The Oaths of Strasbourg were several historical documents which included mutual pledges of allegiance between Louis the German (d. 876), ruler of East Francia, and his (half-)brother Charles the Bald (d. 877), ruler of West Francia." See the Wikipedia article ( link). For an example: "Pro Deo amur et pro Christian poblo et nostro commun salvament, d'ist di in avant, in quant Deus savir et podir me dunat, si salvarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo et in ajudha et in cadhuna cosa, si cum om per dreit son fradre salvar dist, in o quid il me altresi fazet, et ab Ludher nul plaid numquam prindrai, qui, meon vol, cist meon fradre Karle in damno sit." “For the love of God and for Christendom and our common salvation, from this day onwards, as God will give me the wisdom and power, I shall protect this brother of mine Charles, with aid or anything else, as one ought to protect one's brother, so that he may do the same for me, and I shall never knowingly make any covenant with Lothair that would harm this brother of mine Charles.”
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I recognize the Latin and the "Proto" French. I had never
heard of the Strasbourg Oaths, but I find the history
most interesting. It is amazing what one can find on Wiki
(valid or no). The concept of the development of the
language is amazing. I've always wondered how Latin
became the Romance languages and assumed that most of it
was lost in the "dark ages", with no real ability to trace
it. I see, acually, if you know where to look it is
really just a matter of probing, especially with modern
techniques. I really appreciate your taking to time
to give me that insight. Appreciate it.
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I just happened to think of another question, at your
convenience. The Roman Church uses (d) Latin and still
does in documents, etc. But the Latin it uses
with the C as in "ceiling": vici (vichi), is what I have
always called "ecclesiastical" Latin. Whereas the
other pronunciation of the "C" is like a K: vici, as in
Wiki. Is that the "classical" Latin to which you refer?
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The Roman Church uses (d) Latin and still
does in documents, etc. But the Latin it uses
with the C as in "ceiling": vici (vichi), is what I have
always called "ecclesiastical" Latin. Whereas the
other pronunciation of the "C" is like a K: vici, as in
Wiki. Is that the "classical" Latin to which you refer?
Well, the Latin that the Church uses is closer to Late Latin or Medieval Latin than to Classical Latin. The latter is what you find in Livy, Cicero, Caesar, and other classical authors. After Latin ceased to be a living, spoken language, its pronunciation started to change based on region: sort of like a regional accent. Ecclesiastical Latin tends to use the phonology of the people who spoke it the most, Italians. All the other major European nation states had their own pronunciation systems closer to the phonology of the underlying, native languages in each state. You can hear this in the older, legalese, Latin phrases of English jurisprudence.
The classical pronunciation used in teaching Latin these days is based on work that a bunch of philologists did in the 19th century. It is a kind of reconstructed classical pronunciation. If you want to read up on Latin pronunciation, you could try to have your library get a copy of W. Sidney Allen Vox Latina: A Guide to the Pronunciation of Classical Latin. There are older works that I have skimmed available for free on Google Books. If you want I can find some links later. Sturtevant wrote a Latin pronunciation book back in the earlier part of the previous century.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I am really appreciative, and will try the Library first.
Thanks a bunch.
My interest was based on prayers learned as an altar boy
and then later in high school, a girl who studied Latin
which was also mandatory in Public Schools in those days.
I said Caesar (see-zar) she said (Kai-sar). I am
appreciative for the understanding. To the library tomorrow.
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If you want to read up on Latin pronunciation, you could try to have your library get a copy of W. Sidney Allen Vox Latina: A Guide to the Pronunciation of Classical Latin. If this is the book I think it is it asks (and answers) the burning questions: How do we know? and Who cares?
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Burning questions, indeed. Yet, I asked, so it must
be on others' minds as well. Thanks, we'll try to
find it.
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