|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Could someone sort this out for me, please? I think this is one of those things that is understandable...as long as one already knows what it is. Origin:
1820–30; contr. of and per se and lit., (the symbol) & by itself (stands for) and; see per se From Dictionary.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I'm not sure what the question is. What part of the etymology don't you understand? The per se is a Latin phrase meaning 'by or of itself'. The whole phrase, 'and per se and' is just a fancy way of saying that the symbol is just the word and. The nd in the first and is converted to an m sound by assimilation with the p of per.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
And the symbol itself (&) is a stylized Latin et 'and'. I like the character, ultimately from Tironian Notes that was used in Old English MSS (⁊). It's still used in Irish. Its code is U+204A, so if you wrap that number between an ampersand, an octothorpe, and a lowercase x, on the left, and a semi-colon on the right, you should get it to show up in HTML or XML.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
At the bottom of Dict.com page it is showed in a simple way:
am·per·sand (ām'pər-sānd')
n. The character or sign (&) representing the word and.
# octothorpe, thanks
Last edited by BranShea; 05/21/2010 11:21 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
And the symbol itself (&) is a stylized Latin et 'and'. I like the character, ultimately from Tironian Notes that was used in Old English MSS (⁊). It's still used in Irish. Its code is U+204A, so if you wrap that number between an ampersand, an octothorpe, and a lowercase x, on the left, and a semi-colon on the right, you should get it to show up in HTML or XML. I will sometimes just use the number 7, which is on the same key as the &. Coincidence? IDTS.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I got that the first nd got converted to m, and I know what an ampersand is, but.
The per se is a Latin phrase meaning 'by or of itself'. The whole phrase, 'and per se and' is just a fancy way of saying that the symbol is just the word and.
"And by itself and" just doesn't make sense to me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
1820–30; contr. of and per se and lit., (the symbol) & by itself (stands for) and; see per se
For this part I'm with you Jackie. It's abacadabra, the Latin is confusing. The history of the sign is interesting though.
btw. The thing called octothorpe here # is on our phones and all automatic answering machines tell us: "and/or close with a "little fence" ". Small countries use small words.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
Quinion has a good run-down on the word octothorpe. As far as ampersand goes, it's a convention from old glossary entries that read "& per se and", i.e., "The sign &, by itself, means and.". You can refer to single letters as, A per se, in the OED2, "the letter A when standing by itself, especially when making a word", &c. (Reminds me of the Dord entry in the Webster's 2nd.)
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
 I've always had some problems with others peoples' logic. If "The sign &, by itself, means and." then why per se drag in the per se? So & means and and..the A per se Jackie!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Now, this: "The sign &, by itself, means and.". makes perfect sense. Why didn't the dictionary have that instead of what it did?!
tsuwm, how do I make that wossname: a combined question mark & exclamation point? A thunderfurken or some such.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
you mean this‽
thas an interrobang.
(you can learn the unicode sequence for it or look that up and write it down somewhere or just google interrobang and then copy and paste)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
!! On Google it has Insert Coin instead of I'm Feeling Lucky, and when I clicked on that the Pac-man game began! Couldn't find the code, or one small enough to copy, but thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
the first hit I get is at wikipedia and there it may be too small, but let's try it: how's this‽ (copied right out of the results page without even opening wiki. compare to unicode: ‽
here's the unicode sequence, & # 8 2 5 3 ; [include ; and remove spaces]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
A thunderfurken or some such. Thunderfurken, twin brother of Dunderklumpen?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
‽ Nope, still can't do it.
Dunderklumpen--whodat?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
‽ yep, that's it. (i copy/pasted the code from your post)
oh, you have to have unicode enabled!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I'll bite: how do I do dat?
Edit: I will say that, ever since my computer was worked on, that thing where you hold Alt then hit numbers on the keypad has been wonky. Sometimes, as soon as I hit Alt, the screen whips back to the previous one--a real pain, in the middle of a post!
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,916
Posts230,363
Members9,209
| |
Most Online7,006
Mar 7th, 2026
|
|
|
|
