#19104
02/28/2001 4:25 AM
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In reply to:
Babies who parents wore eye glasses where not upset with faces wearing glasses, but prefered faces with out glasses
Hmmmm, I'm not so sure about that. My parents have mentioned that when my grandfather took off his glasses to wash his face or for whatever reason, my sister and brother and I would go into hysterics of fear and terror as toddlers.
Bingley
Bingley
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#19105
02/28/2001 1:21 PM
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took off his glasses to wash his face or for whatever reason, my sister and brother and I would go into hysterics of fear and terror
On a similar note, I recall thinking how wise Yul Brynner was, all those years ago, when I read that he insisted on having his children present when he first got his head shaved, so that they would then recognize him when he came home.
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#19106
02/28/2001 10:25 PM
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Actually, I have been lucky enough to live in Hawaii. I agree there can be a wonderful mix of people. I once lived in an building with 16 units and people from 19 different countries. Sadly, there are deep pockets of ignorance even in Hawaii, and while I hope it never takes over, it certainly infects the islands.
On the subject of words, take the word haole, which some people say means foreigner or more specifically white people. But means roughly without respect for others. My husband says that really is a huge insult in the land of Aloha. I think it's a telling word about what is important in Hawaii. It's not what you look like, but how you treat others. In an ideal world...
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#19107
02/28/2001 10:35 PM
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rant/ This is all about feeding on peoples fear of or actual isolation! I'll blame it on the big marketing dept. we call "commercialism"(again). Didn't Yule Brynner know that he was "less of a man" for going or being bald, and that he could be part of the "Normal" crowd if he just bought the newest in revolutionary hair technology?  The suggestion that the internet might be the "true equalizer" may offer the promise, but, unfortunately to whom? /rant Can anyone tell me when did Pride stop being a deadly sin? [no wink at all]
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#19108
03/01/2001 3:55 AM
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old hand
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rant/ This is all about feeding on peoples fear of or actual isolation! I'll blame it on the big marketing dept. we call "commercialism"(again).
And what about nationalism? Have you noticed that those who wave their flags the most are the least accepting of others?
Didn't Yule Brynner know that he was "less of a man" for going or being bald, and that he could be part of the "Normal" crowd
if he just bought the newest in revolutionary hair technology?
I'm a natural baldie. I tried Rogaine when it was in the experimental stage. I got a dry scalp and hairy fingertips. Woopie for the latest technology!
The suggestion that the internet might be the "true equalizer" may offer the promise, but, unfortunately to whom?
Initially only to those with ISPs. I'm sure people scoffed at Gutenberg too.
Can anyone tell me when did Pride stop being a deadly sin? [no wink at all]
When Hell went out of fashion. Even ol' King Solomon had similar laments.
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#19109
03/01/2001 2:47 PM
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Dear Geoff: Who's afraid of Hell? All my friends are going to be there!
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#19110
03/02/2001 9:18 AM
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wwh enthused Dear Geoff: Who's afraid of Hell? All my friends are going to be there!Now, okay everyone, please do NOT let him into the secret. The poor, deluded soul believes he's still alive. No one's told him he's already there ... 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#19111
03/02/2001 3:56 PM
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Ladymoon wrote : On the subject of words, take the word haole, which some people say means foreigner or more specifically white people. But means roughly without respect for others. My husband says that really is a huge insult in the land of Aloha.
--------------------------------------------------
Sorry for the late reply, and with respect, I believe your husband has been misinformed.
Haole -- As explained to me by a full blooded Hawaiian of ancient lineage : Originally the indigenous people of Hawaii greeted each other by nearly pressing noses and an exchange of breath. The courtesy has become the Hawaiin embrace greeting in modern times although some Native Hawaiians keep up the old way among themselves and with people who understand the custom.
When Westerners came to the Islands they did not exchange breath and the term haole means "without breath" subsequently, not Hawaiian, stranger, and then also Westerner.
In the booklet, "Asian Pacific Americans A Handbook on How to Cover and Portray Our Nation's Fastest Growing Minority Group" put out for guidance of the media by National Conference of Christians and Jews, Asian American Journalists Association and the Association of Asian Pacific American Artists, the word "haole" is defined thus :
haole (hah-oh-leh) - Hawaiian term for a white person. It originally meant foreigners. Not necessarily derogatory.
I have a 1990 address for anyone interested in obtaining a copy.
When I worked in Hawaii for the Office of Hawaiian Affairs there were three of us on the staff who had *no* Hawaiian blood. We jokingly called ourselves "The Token Haoles."
The Native Hawaiians and Hawaiians of mixed blood used the term haole - but the context of the use made *all* the difference.
I received nothing but kindness and respect from the other staff and the Trustees and Administrator.
I was given a Hawaiian name by my Hawaiian friends at the office of which I am very proud and which I had legally incorporated into my name by Deed Poll.
Crazy Old Lady Haole
wow
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#19112
03/02/2001 8:07 PM
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Originally the indigenous people of Hawaii greeted each other by nearly pressing noses and an exchange of breath.
Wow, what do they call this? NZ Maori use exactly the same greeting to this day, except that the noses do lightly touch, and it is known as hongi
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#19113
03/02/2001 8:20 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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I'm guessing that this custom has never taken hold in a culture with spicy cooking. A garlic-and-onion howdy could be nasty.
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#19114
03/02/2001 9:58 PM
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Oh, Max ... I am racking my brains but no luck. There is a name and I think it's similar to the Maori word. There was a delegation from OHA to the Maori in NZ and we had photos of one of the Trustees (Moses Keale ?) greeting a high ranking Maori in that manner as did other Trustees.
The subject of the greeting and its Maori and Hawaiian tradition was covered in the report of the visit. Also noted was that both languages had many words in common and when each spoke their own language the other could understand the gist of what was being said.
Sorry, still cannot think of it.
wow
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#19115
03/06/2001 12:28 AM
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Who's afraid of Hell? All my friends are going to be there!
I am truly sorry to hear that, wwh.
No offense, but I don't think it's a joking matter. As a Christian, I feel about jokes about Hell the way a Jew might feel about Auschwitz jokes, if you know what I mean.
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#19116
03/06/2001 2:15 AM
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Good grief francais. A gentle "lighten up" might be in order here. Most people I know are Christians, we have several Christians on Board, we even have a pastor (Father Steve) and I know of no one that would take exception to Bill’s joke…and it was that, a joke.
Please tell me what you find offensive about it.
In the Christian faith, hell is believed to be the place where the soul of a sinful person resides in eternal misery because of the evil things he did (sins he committed) while he was alive. The person chose to be there by disregarding the rules of Christianity. It is a bad place true, but how can you compare it to Auschwitz.
The people that were in Auschwitz did not go of their own accord. They did not choose, nor deserve to be treated that way. As a people, it is understandable that Jews would find no humour in jokes about Auschwitz for many reasons. Most can trace back to a family member, a friend, a neighbor or an acquaintance that was killed or lost in the war. Auschwitz is representative of the Holocaust and how easily inhumanity and cruelty can run amok when an evil power is left unchecked.
Jokes about Auschwitz are as unacceptable as jokes about black people or handicapped people. Those jokes are signs of bigotry.
I don’t know how you can compare the two.
Normally, I would have sent you a personal note however, since you felt the need to reproach Bill publicly, I believe it is the right thing to do to publicly take a stand in Bill’s defense.
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#19117
03/08/2001 2:46 AM
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You're right, belMarduk; it's an imperfect analogy. What I was getting at was that both are places of intense suffering, and I don't think we should make light of that.
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#19118
03/08/2001 2:24 PM
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Our dear wwh was using part of a very old joke!
wow
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#19119
03/08/2001 3:43 PM
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You're right, belMarduk; it's an imperfect analogy. What I was getting at was that both are places of intense suffering, and I don't think we should make light of that.Dear Francais31415 (may I call you Pi for short?  ) I think you're still on dodgy grounds here. What happened at Auschwitz is not deniable. The evidence is before us that probably the worst act ever perpetrated by a set of allegedly progressive people - The Holocaust - in the midst of our hubris about being civilised and liberal, was at Auschwitz and various other death-sites throughout Europe. Hell, on the other hand, to anybody not a Christian, is simply an unproven speculation. I am not a Jew, but I feel the horrors of the Holocaust. But to most people, the Christian hell will be, whether you like it or not, a fairy tale similar to the Santa Claus one, or the Easter Bunny, or the Twelve Labours of Hercules. It may be a great act of imagination, but since it doesn't have any demonstrable reality to us - the non-Christians - it is absurd for anyone to claim that it is akin to Auschwitz, for which all humanity must bear some guilt and some suffering. cheer the sunshine warrior
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#19120
03/08/2001 7:36 PM
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>But to most people, the Christian hell will be, whether you like it or not, a fairy tale similar to the Santa Claus one, or the Easter Bunny, or the Twelve Labours of Hercules.
I'm with shanks and Joseph Campbell on this one... modern mythology. And I'd also like to add that I find the concept of Hell rather soothing sometimes, if only to think that that guy who just cut me off on the freeway will have somewhere to go.
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#19121
03/08/2001 8:01 PM
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for which all humanity must bear some guilt and some suffering.
While I agree with the general tenor of your post, shanks, the above seemed just a little too sweeping. Surely the victims bear no guilt, be they Jews or one of the three million or so non-Jews who were also victims of the Nazi barbarism?
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#19122
03/08/2001 11:50 PM
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There has got to be a better word than that though. It seems that guilt - meaning feeling responsibility or remorse, doesn't really cover it. Is there a word that means feeling responsibility to make sure it does not happen again?
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#19123
03/09/2001 8:33 AM
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shanks asserts What happened at Auschwitz is not deniable.
Oh? What about the French revisionist academics who keep telling us it was all a ghastly mistake, that Hitler wasn't aware of what was going on, that it wasn't going on at all anyway, and that the Jews are exaggerating about the numbers who were killed for their own arcane political purposes in the camps which weren't death camps at all?
If this reads as being confused, it's because I've tried to encapsulate all of the revisionist views in one sentence ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#19124
03/09/2001 8:41 AM
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What about the French revisionist academics who keep telling us it was all a ghastly mistake,
Or the Canterbury & Waikato university revisionist academics, for that matter. [hanging-head-in-shame-emoticon]
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#19125
03/09/2001 10:53 AM
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shanks asserts What happened at Auschwitz is not deniable.
Oh? What about the French revisionist academics who keep telling us it was all a ghastly mistake, that Hitler wasn't aware of what was going on, that it wasn't going on at all anyway, and that the Jews are exaggerating about the numbers who were killed for their own arcane political purposes in the camps which weren't death camps at all?
Peccavi.
I should have said irrefutable instead of not deniable.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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#19126
03/09/2001 10:55 AM
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While I agree with the general tenor of your post, shanks, the above seemed just a little too sweeping. Surely the victims bear no guilt, be they Jews or one of the three million or so non-Jews who were also victims of the Nazi barbarism?
Bel, in her response to you, explains it better than I could. Is there a word for that sense of responsibility?
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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#19127
03/09/2001 3:18 PM
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Dear shanks: conscience ?
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#19128
03/09/2001 5:38 PM
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veteran
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Shanks and WWH:
How about "penitance".
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#19129
03/09/2001 5:46 PM
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Conscience is an indispensible precursor to penitence.
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#19130
03/09/2001 6:29 PM
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veteran
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True, but it doesn't necessarily lead anywhere. Otherwise, you would not have the concept that faith without works is dead. St. Augustine had a conscience, but he kept praying, "Make me pure -- but not yet."
One of the essential parts of penitence is the intention to undo what wrong one has done to whatever extent may be possible, or to make reparations to whatever extent is possible.
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#19131
03/09/2001 7:07 PM
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May I suggest that you type "Holocaust Museum" in your search engine and visit the site, then perhaps visit the Museum if you are in Washington, D.C., USA.
wow
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#19132
03/09/2001 7:53 PM
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"St. Augustine had a conscience, but he kept praying, "Make me pure -- but not yet."
But he said that a long time before he became a Saint!
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#19133
03/10/2001 8:58 AM
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shanks remorsefully muttered I should have said irrefutable instead of not deniable.
And I should have added a tongue-in-cheek emoticon. I don't believe the revisionist French (and NZ) academics for one second! One of my friends' uncles was among the first into one of the concentration camps (?Belsen-Bergen) and I don't really think he was making it up ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#19134
03/10/2001 1:31 PM
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In a post-WWII book about the Holocaust written by one who had been in one of those awful places (can't remember title but will never forget the words) I read this :
"God keep man from enduring all that man is capable of enduring."
Amen, I say.
wow
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