Just had to respond to this one. While volunteering to listen to 5th graders read, one mother, said the book her student was reading should be banned. "Why" I said, "Well it talks about gays and fairies" OK, what is the title "The Secret Garden" she said. Well, if it is the same as the Hallmark Hall of Fame Movie, I said, the word gay must mean happy as it used in the Victorian days. NO she insisted. Wellshow me the page---she said it is on the first page, the sentence read "Mary was bored as a child, because while her father either worked or drank socially, her mother amused herself by attending gay parties with her female friends" (happy parties) and the fairy part--Well the sentence said "Mary met a fair young man in her garden, he was so small,fair and fine, he almost looked like a girl." When I explained it is not a bad book, WOW was she hot---then she became defensive. Ignorance is bliss--not in this case!!!
My favorite, from the old comic strip Bloom County is "small house apes."
Research into kid, Kind and child indicates that there is no known relation among the three words. Kid traces back to Old Norse through Middle English (probably entered the language during the days of the Danelaw and refers to antelope young as well as goat young), child traces back no further that Old English cild. Kind traces back to Indo European and is distantly related to the English kin and king and such diverse words as gentile and naive See http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE143.html
Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works ... but ... what about "Kiddies?" As in when inquiring about a friend's childen : "How are all the kiddies?" wow
I have a 17 year old son who uses the word "gay" to mean anything that is totally "uncool", for instance, having to wear pants that aren't at least 2 inches longer than shoe level. I also have an uncle named Gaylord, who is anything but "gay". When I learned that the term gay was used for homosexual, I had trouble calling him Uncle Gay. I too would be glad for the terminology to change back to its original meaning. Satin
Welcome to you, satin, and never mind the post that followed yours, especially if you didn't read the thread where a whole bunch of discussion went on about who the 2000th AWADtalk member would be. It turned out to be you! Did you receive a prize? The beelzebub ref. was to a misunderstanding in that thread, not to yourself, Dear.
Not just any product! I don't think the "depth's of marketing" would go for kiddie Tylenol (almost as bad as the "kiddie cigarettes" (candy) of my youth) ....however, marketed towards children might be a compelling reason to use "kiddie".
As I understand it, back in the 19th century gay was used as a slang term for female prostitutes, and was later (1920s/1930s) extended to cover younger tramps (hobos for cross the ponders) and convicts who were taken under the protection of an older and more experienced man in exchange for services rendered. This was what led to the present general homosexual reference. So for most (all?) of us here, the potential for sexual double entendre has been there since before we were born, we just weren't aware of it.
Which would I rather be called, gay or queer? As Fiberbabe and Jo said, it depends on who's doing the calling. From a negative minded person any description can be used as an insult. As we're finding out in many fields euphemism only works for so long before the less explicit and offensive term becomes just as explicit and offensive as the term it has replaced unless there is also a change in attitude , much more difficult to bring about.
euphemism only works for so long before the less explicit and offensive term becomes just as explicit and offensive as the term it has replaced unless there is also a change in attitude , much more difficult to bring about.
Bingley, my sweet, you speak the truth. In yesterday's comics, a little girl making arm motions sings, "I'm a little teapot, vertically and metabolically challenged..." (Her dad says, "Call me insensitive, but I like the rhyming version."{Speed Bump by Dave Coverly, tsuwm})
It still means short and stout, which both carry negative connotations, and everyone knows it. 'Special ed.' has now become 'Exceptional Child Ed.' here, but everyone knows it means retarded--'Advanced Placement' is still the 'Advanced Program'. Gee, I wonder why that one didn't get PC'd? Though I must say that I think, by and large, people are more accepting of retarded people than they are of those of us who are gay, lesbo, or fat.
Who knows what changes the future will bring? Perhaps advances in medicine will help. People who had epileptic seizures used to be thought demon-possessed. It would be nice if a change to acceptance happens in my lifetime, but somehow I rather doubt it.
Bingley, your post reminded me of an account I heard for the term "gay"... although it was not from a very reliable source, so I'd appreciate correction if I'm off my cracker. Sometime in the 19th Century GAY was an acronym for "Green And Yellow", which served as a clothing color code for those in the know.
>It would be nice if a change to acceptance happens in my lifetime, but somehow I rather doubt it.
Oh Jackie, how can you say that? Look at us. We are such a varied bunch yet we manage to get along. Like every big family, we have some squabbles, big sisters and big brothers who don't always get along, but mostly what we share is friendship, caring and laughter.
I don't care what anybody looks like. I don't care if anyone has a spouse or a partner or how much anybody weighs. That is how I was raised and that is how I raised my son.
In both his highschool and primary school, there were children from every ethnic background imaginable. We are Caucasian French Canadians - his best friends Sayid (Pakistani), Alex (Mexican) and Vincent (Italian). That is in THIS generation Jackie.
Believe me, it IS possible. It takes work, it takes time and it takes good examples. It’ll happen sweetie. Trust me.
Regarding the subject of changing attitudes : There is a wonderful song in "South Pacific" about how bigotry is passed on. It's called "You've Got To Be Carefully Taught" if memory serves. Perhaps some Board member with a better memory or a collection of Original Cast recordings could dig out the words and post them ???? It stands alone as a poem, set to music it is very poignant.
Read this somewhere ... wish it was a bumper sticker! "Bigotry is a disease, don't be a carrier"
"You've got to be taught To hate and fear, You've got to be taught From year to year, It's got to be drummed In your dear little ear You've got to be carefully taught.
You've got to be taught to be afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made, And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade, You've got to be carefully taught.
You've got to be taught before it's too late, Before you are six or seven or eight, To hate all the people your relatives hate, You've got to be carefully taught!"
Lyrics by: Oscar Hammerstein II (O. Greeley Clendenning H. II)
EDIT: I uploaded an .mp3 of the song to Max's MySpace account, if anyone's interested
log in using the name " maxquordlepleen " and enter the password " Crescent " (beware, passwords are often case sensitive, so you'll likely need to capitalize the cee)
Once you've logged in, click on " awadabilia " and you'll see the mp3.
send me a private if you have any problems =) and thanks again to max for the use of the account!
it was not from a very reliable source, so I'd appreciate correction if I'm off my cracker. Sometime in the 19th Century GAY was an acronym for "Green And Yellow", which served as a clothing color code for those in the know.
I've not heard the story before, and it seems most unlikely. Most word and phrases origins people seem to agree that acronyms were very rare before WWII.
I think there were quite a few during President Roosevelt's time. Only one I can think of is WPA - Works Progress Administration. They built a big field for football and baseball, using hundreds of guys with pick,shovel, and wheelbarrows. Republicans called it "We play all day"
This is beautiful, and your family is still among the minority, especially in the rural areas. People here in the Appalacian Hills are close knit and really do not let anyone else in---they are very leery--they are white and other white folks are sometimesnot accepted. But keep up the excellent work, and your son will carry on--the world will get better. Always accentuate the positive--but it is sooo hard.
Regarding attitudes---If crayons are needed for schools---than perhaps this poem should be recited every morning in every school nationwide----it is beautiful.We could learn a lot from crayons. Some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors... but they all have to learn to live in the same box. Amen
I was a film minor in school and in one of my classes we were told the first time "gay" was used to mean homosexual in a movie was Bringing up Baby, with Katherine Hepburn. Thus being a landmark for those who track meanings and connotations.
While new definitions have to be accepted I think it's sad that the old meaning seems to have lost validity, and fine examples of it's old use ridculed and snickered at as in Father Steve's example.
I'm not sure I agree with that song ("You've Got To Be Carefully Taught"). I think it's basic human nature to judge people by what we see on the outside, at least to some extent. I'm not saying it's right or good, but I think it's probably a natural tendency that you would have to be taught NOT to do.
Yes-- there have been some studies with infants-- and girl infants prefer womens faces, and boy infants prefer mens faces (except for their mothers face)-- and infants seem happier with faces that have colors and shapes they are familiar with-- so white babies tend to prefer white faces, black babies prefer black faces, etc. and its not just color-- with photo filters you can give an asian face (with eyefolds, say) a pale, rosy complexion-- but babies are not fooled.. such trick photos often seem to scare babies-- so it seems its not just color, its general shapes of noses, eyes, lips and earlobes, along with hair and skin color- the whole package! Babies who parents wore eye glasses where not upset with faces wearing glasses, but prefered faces with out glasses (and any parent can tell you, at an early age, babies learn to pull off your eyeglasses. Babies who's father wore beard, where happier with hairy faces..
So we do have have (or aquire at a very early age) a preference for faces that look like our own --or our primary care givers.
There a natural tendency to want to look at people who look like ourselves-- and we also have a natural tendency towards languages-- but most spoke languages are more complex, and have more complicated rules than "pidgeons" -- something language experts recognize as languages that children "make up" when adults of may different language groups come to gether.
So with culture, languages take on more than the simplest rules that are used to form pidgeons-- and with the language, we can extend our culture to take it past the simple preference we aquire as infants.
So i think Francais Pi is right-- we all have to make an effort to learn to be accepting-- and as parents, or just members of society, we have to make an effort to teach openess and acceptance.. just as we teach advanced rules of grammer-- not just in school, but by our everyday behavior.
Jackie, I thank you and everyone for the welcome. This is a very interesting group of characters. (names and ideas). Luckily I read the other thread first so no dis adhered. I have a sibling who is also a member of this group and got me interested. That person is much smarter than I am so I am learning along with all the other newbies. Hopefully I can become (at some time) a contributing member but it will take some time before I feel adequate enough, especially surrounded by so much intellegence. Satin
Oh Satin-- you are a contributing member! you have made at least 3 contributions to my knowledge (I could look at your profile, and find out if you made more--- but i prefer to get to know people from their posts..)
and do please hang out here, Mark Twain said the way to get an education was to hang around people smarter than your self (and to read) that why i hang out... Every one on the board has something to teach me!
it will take some time before I feel adequate enough, especially surrounded by so much intellegence. Satin ----------------------------------------------------- Whomever or whatever that intelligence is sign them up ... we need all the help we can get.
Really, now, each member has something unique to contribute from reading, experience, hobbies and/or jobs. And I am sure you do, too! And I'll take this opportunity to thank, each and severally, the Board Members who have computer expertise and have shared it with a generosity beyond patience with me! wow
that why i hang out... Every one on the board has something to teach me! ---------------------------------------------------------- You're no slouch yourself, of Troy! wow
I agree that I disagree with the song "You have to be carefully taught." While there are some obvious cases of carefully taught hatred. I believe a lot of predjucices are learned from a snide comment here and a misunderstanding there. I also believe some hurtful things said are not meant, simply because what was said and what was understood aren't always the same thing. I'm sure a chat group about words knows the power of words. Sometimes the delievery is imperfect. We don't realize how ugly it sounds on the other end. Perhaps it's hard to understand how ignorant "Black people eat fried chicken" or "Chinese people own laundries" sounds until it's happened to us. And Maybe? when we talk about a good word gone bad, we're not saying something nasty but commenting on how the definition has gone from meaning happy to homosexual to uncool.
The composer was trying to make a point and get people thinking and talking ... (one hopes in that order )looks like he succeeded. wow P. S. The song comes from the musical play "South Pacific" written just after WW II. Different times, different attitudes.
And Maybe? when we talk about a good word gone bad, we're not saying something nasty but commenting on how the definition has gone from meaning happy to homosexual to uncool.
Since I'm the one who originally stated a disdain for the shift in the connotation of "gay," I wish to tell you, ladymoon, that you've hit the issue dead center for me! Words can be missiles of destruction or feathers with which to tickle, or particles of knowledge, or splints and gauze to bandage and heal, depending on context. But it goes beyond words, of course. I, an Anglo man, have Chinese and Afro-American friends, as well as friends born in foreigh lands, (I'm in the USA) all of whom have faced xenophobia here in this supposedly "enlightened" country, this supposed "melting pot" of the world. My last lover was French, and got called a "Frog" in pejorative ways many times, even though she's white, and speaks impeccable English. A Belizian friend has been called "nigger" on occasion. Because English is the language of Belize (formerly British Honduras) people here assume such people to be from the USA, yet, ironically, if white USA denizens hear a black person speaking with an accent, they don't seem so immediately prejudiced, as though a reverse-xenophobia, or an attraction to the exotic, were at work. A Chinese friend tells me that she's shunned at work because of her very heavy accent, so it appears that my previous statement only holds true if the accent isn't TOO exotic! Might it be that the internet will be the true "Melting pot," the true equalizer?
But it goes beyond words, of course. I, an Anglo man, have Chinese and Afro-American friends, as well as friends born in foreigh lands, (I'm in the USA) all of whom have faced xenophobia here in this supposedly "enlightened" country, this supposed "melting pot" of the world.
Such xenophobia is universal, I fear. My sister's husband is black, of mixed German/Ghanaian descent, I think, though raised in NZ. When househunting, they often found that apartments available for rent when she went to view them had suddenly been taken by the time she went back with her husband. Just last year, an Nigerian man was badly beaten on a beach in Christchurh (the spiritual hearland of white supremacy in NZ) while hundreds of people just watched. A corner store run by Indians in my hometown was forced to close after repeated acts of intimidation and violence, the last of which was firebomb thrown into the shop while it was being staffed by a 14 year-old girl. Such overt acts of xenophobia are the fruits that grow from the seeds sown in the language of hate.
Ladymoon and Geoff : You raise some telling points ... it's just so depressing to hear about such bigotry ... especially for one lucky enough to have lived in Hawaii where races mix and even make "matches" so well. One can but try to accept people for what they are and hope to set a good example. For consolation I think of the Hindu saying : "You cannot argue with a man who is spending his first time on earth." wow
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Just had to respond to this one. While volunteering to listen to 5th graders read, one mother, said the book her student was reading should be banned. "Why" I said, "Well it talks about gays and fairies" OK, what is the title "The Secret Garden" she said. Well, if it is the same as the Hallmark Hall of Fame Movie, I said, the word gay must mean happy as it used in the Victorian days. NO she insisted. Wellshow me the page---she said it is on the first page, the sentence read "Mary was bored as a child, because while her father either worked or drank socially, her mother amused herself by attending gay parties with her female friends" (happy parties) and the fairy part--Well the sentence said "Mary met a fair young man in her garden, he was so small,fair and fine, he almost looked like a girl." When I explained it is not a bad book, WOW was she hot---then she became defensive. Ignorance is bliss--not in this case!!!
The beelzebub ref. was to a misunderstanding in that thread, not to yourself, Dear.
