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There's also the problem that most immigrants who filled steerage weren't well educated. My grandfather (Sicily) was a laborer and his father an orchardist. My grandmother's parents (Rheinhessen) were peasants. Same on the other side of the family. These folks weren't hired as teachers!
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
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Also, the people who filled steerage - the great mass of immigrants - were generally not well educated. My grandfather (Sicily) was a laborer and his father a carpenter and orchardist. My grandmother's family (Rheinhessen) were peasants. It was similar on the other side of my family. Nor did they speak English when they arrived, so they weren't considered suitable as teachers.
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
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most immigrants who filled steerage weren't well educated
Also, most immigrants to this country usually did not speak the standard language of the nation states they came from, but the local dialect.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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@ beck: your double post reminded me of a poem of Yeats' that is available in two edited versions. It is fascinating to see the mind of the poet working across the two edits of the poem. To google the poem is a bit beyond me else I would have posted its two versions here.
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Luke, I had the same experience of even foreign languages teachers* having to learn it first, and I wonder if it is due to geography: we in the middle of the U.S. got significant numbers of immigrants far later than coastal areas?
*With the exception of my college professor who was French-Canadian, and warned us that her French wasn't Parisian. I likewise taught French for a number of years, hearing it only on movies or recordings, and based on what my teacher had taught. Having had the opportunity to visit Quebec I had the most difficult time understanding what was being said. I could read and speak, but not understand, it was most frustrating.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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Heres my new word for the day.
elec·tro·myo·graph
an instrument that converts the electrical activity associated with functioning skeletal muscle into a visual record or into sound.
This technology can help people who have lost their voice due to an accident or illness. But an interesting application is its use as a translator. Because the electrical pulses are universal they can be transformed into the language of the user's choice. Much like the universal translators employed in Scifi stories.
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@ beck: your double post reminded me... I wish I could say I were imitating Yeats, but the fact is that my computer geeked things up. I couldn't see the first post once I posted it, so I recreated its essence from memory... and then couldn't see that version in the forum, either! So, not hardly a poet, but you've all had the chance to see the mind of a simpleton at work, which might be interesting in itself.
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...an interesting application is its use as a translator. Because the electrical pulses are universal they can be transformed into the language of the user's choice. Is this actual or potential technology? I've never heard of it, and I don't see how it could work. Wouldn't the pattern of pulses be different if one is saying (voicing?) the word "work" rather than " trabajo?" The use of voiceprints to identify unseen speakers or to detect stress reflected in vocalizations suggests that the pulses are not universal. Tell us more.
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Still in development but Here is the article I read. I'd imagine the output would be similar to a speech recognition device, stilted and electronic sounding with no context or intonation.
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I could see how something like that would work. one could simply have several(many) language/waveform databases to draw on when translating. certainly "work" in English would have a different waveform than "trabajo" in Spanish.
formerly known as etaoin...
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I think we all (I included) are confusing the waveforms of spoken language with the chart of neuroelectrical impulses made by the muscles that operate the vocal tract. The latter is what this technology is recording, and where would the databases be for these? In all languages? More, after I read the article.
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Dangerous stuff this. Technology that terrifies or could terrify.
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Combine writing in invisable ink with soundless speaking. Cheerful.
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the chart of neuroelectrical impulses made by the muscles that operate the vocal tract
Phonetics is divided readily into two branches, the acoustic and the articulatory. The former having to do with the acoustic features of language sounds and the latter with the production of those. When I was at university, the equipment necessary for making spectrograms was huge and expensive. These days, one can download any of a number of software applications, hook up a microphone to the computer, and make them. In humans, phonetic sounds are made with the vocal tract and processed by the cochlea in in the ear. I have not seen the charts mentioned in the news story linked to above, but I cannot but imagine that they look nothing like spectrograms of the same speech. Now whether the two sets of data could be compared and one identified from the other is within the realm of possibility.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I think we all (I included) are confusing the waveforms of spoken language with the chart of neuroelectrical impulses made by the muscles that operate the vocal tract. The latter is what this technology is recording, and where would the databases be for these? In all languages? More, after I read the article. my bad. I would use spoken language waveforms in my little database/comparison gizmo.
formerly known as etaoin...
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But any anyone who travels and who really loves languages; the first thing he/she does in foreign countries is try to get at it, if he/she hasn't already taken courses in advance. I am moderately interested in languages. My first experience with Dutch was a disaster. Then why Esperanto if you can go at it directly? All my contacts do not speak the same language. In multinational fora, it's convenient to use one language instead of having to translate everything in several. Many choose English or Esperanto. I chose English and Esperanto, in which I feel more comfortable. EU is not against Esperanto see http://forums.ec.europa.eu/multilingualism/ and other Figel's interventions. I don't believe in an English speaking elite. So you believe in Globish-speaking masses. Globish is the down-graded version of English. English is the easiest language to learn for Europeans because it has dropped a number of otherwise tackling grammar issues. Every (even low level) school obliges English. I own a pile of grammar books in English. Actually none has the title "grammar book", even if they all attempt to describe some features of the language. I don't know how the language situation in Belgium is now. We had to learn English, French and German up to a serious level. English is the language of choice. French is declining North. Dutch is better accepted South. German is on the decline everywhere. The level obtained after 6 years of studying English is still not satisfactory. One will have to start sooner. I assume you speak French, Flemish, obviously English and Esperanto. Any other language that has you special interest? I want to be fluent in Polish by the end of the year. I probably will spend some time on Chinese next year, but there is no hurry: I just want to be able to help my grandchildren when they'll be looking for a job :-) Remuŝ
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I don't really see where there was ever a language imposed on the entire British Isles. Englands domination over Wales, Scotland, and Ireland introduced the English language to these regions, but with the devastating consequence of the downfall of the local languages. Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Scots, and Irish (among others) were all prohibited in education at one time or another, which possibly contributed the most to the plummeting usage of the languages. In Wales, the Welsh Not (a piece of wood with the carved letters WN that was hung around the childrens necks) was used in the 1800s to punish students for speaking Welsh, and beating students for using non-English languages was common throughout all of the countries. Welsh, Scots Gaelic, and Irish had inferior status to English, whereas Scots wasnt even recognized as a separate language, and all suffered as a result. It wasnt until the 20th century that the British government started taking steps to protect these languages, which has been met with mixed success. In all of the countries the local languages are now spoken by a minority, and are still very much secondary to English. About other cases of modern linguistic genocide, see http://listverse.com/2010/02/26/10-modern-cases-of-linguistic-genocide/Remuŝ
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Me: I don't believe in an English speaking elite.
You: So you believe in Globish-speaking masses. Globish is the down-graded version of English. I did tell you what I don't believe in, not what I do believe in. I've read the article and do agree with the writer: "The multilingualism of the European Union is defined within clear limits by Community law. A language can become an official language of the EU if it meets three conditions: it has to be an official language of a Member State, stated by its Constitution; the Member State in question requests its recognition as an official language at the EU level; the other Member States approve this unanimously.
This is one of the reasons that Esperanto cannot become the lingua franca of the European Union.
The second reason has to do with its specificity. A language like Esperanto has little social or cultural practice connected to its
vocabulary. The practical and financial implications of creating entire domains ex novo in an artificial language are immense. Think only of customs codes or banking legislation or the technical requirements for pressure vessels of simple geometric form sometimes known as brake cylinders.
The third reason is a more personal one: I do not believe in a lingua franca, be it Esperanto, Latin or English. On the other hand, lingua franca is, historically, a spontaneous social linguistic phenomenon and is not the result of any legislative or political decision. Probably some Esperantists on this forum do not agree with my position, but I believe we need to share our views (I found some of the arguments very interesting, although I did not agree with some of them)." This does not say Europe is against Esperanto, only that it cannot accept it as an official language. The reasons seem valid,to me. Learning languages besides fun is useful for work and socializing. But there is enough work to be done that needs no special language studies. Nice to learn Polish. Enjoy! But.. what if your grandchildren will not be the studying types? ( I always assumed Belgians learn both French ànd Flemish-Dutch in school. See how much we know about are next door neighbours  )
Last edited by BranShea; 03/03/2010 7:56 PM.
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I probably will spend some time on Chinese next year, but there is no hurry: I just want to be able to help my grandchildren when they'll be looking for a job I understand Chinese is very difficult for one to learn well if one is not exposed to it at a very early age (less than 18 months.) Something about certain consonant sounds becoming indistinguishable to the unprimed ear after that stage of development. I recall years ago reading about a very clever study that demonstrated this effect using children of European ancestry and a Native American language, not Chinese. I also experienced this with Polish. My wife would say a simple word in Polish, and I would try - repeatedly and unsuccessfully - to reproduce the word. I could hear no difference, but she could. Yet, with languages I heard as a child - German, Yiddish, Spanish - I'm told I speak with no noticeable accent.
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
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I understand Chinese is very difficult for one to learn well if one is not exposed to it at a very early age (less than 18 months.
That's pretty much true of all languages. It is pretty hard to reach accentless perfection if you learn the language as a secon language, say past about 5 or 7 years of age.
I also experienced this with Polish. My wife would say a simple word in Polish, and I would try - repeatedly and unsuccessfully - to reproduce the word.
It's interesting because the two sets of sounds (in Mandarin and Polish) are similar. The difference between alveolar, retroflex, and alveolar-palatal affricates and fricatives /s/, /ʂ/, /ts/, /tsʰ/. /tʂ/, /tʂʰ/, /tɕ/, /tɕʰ/ in Mandarin Chinese; in Polish, the difference between dental-alveolar, retroflex, and palatal affricates and fricatives /t͡s/, /d͡z/, /͡ʂ̠/, /d͡ʐ̠/, /t͡ɕ/, /d͡ʑ/. It's nothijng mysterious. Most non-native speakers have difficulty hearing and producing phonemes that fall outside of their native language's inventory. (It's interesting, most people complain about tones when learning Chinese.) when I was trying to learn Mandarin, I would practice with a Chinese friend, who was a native Cantonese speaker, and even I could recognize that he had a string Cantonese accent when speaking Mandarin. In isolation, one word at a time, say in a vocabulary list, it could cause confusion, but in context it's not as bad as getting the tones wrong. Some people just have a knack for mimicking sounds. Others don't. I still have a tough time hearing and producing the voiced and voiceless, aspirated and non-aspirated series of consonants in Sanskrit and Hindi: e.g., p, ph, b, bh, etc. Funny thing is I have some Indian friends who speak Tamil, and they have the same problem, though their Hindi is much better than mine. In the end, if you learn a language as an adult, you'll probably have trouble with phonology and syntax, although maybe one more than the other.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Funny thing is I have some Indian friends who speak Tamil, and they have the same problem, though their Hindi is much better than mine.
this is common among tamil speakers. here is a young native tamil speaker talking about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRKDT_nW5u8
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this is common among tamil speakers
Yes, I didn't mean to imply that it was some rare fault of my friends. Tamil only has one consonant for each of those four in Sanskrit/Hindi: p for p, ph, b, bh; t for t, th, d, dh; etc. I remember when I was learning the Tamil syllabary, I looked at a religious of my friend's mom's: I saw some Sanskrit transliterated into Tamil script. It was impossible to figure out what the Sanskrit words actually were. When I lived in Germany, I used to marvel at how many ways my name, Jim, could be pronounced, especially the j, but also the i. The m was pretty standard.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Here's my punishment for not taking email notifications. I've searched myself silly to find back esperanto cause you changed the headline to accents. OK. got it.
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this is common among tamil speakers
Tamil only has one consonant for each of those four in Sanskrit/Hindi: p for p, ph, b, bh; t for t, th, d, dh; etc. . I did not know this. I can understand and speak some Tamil but I cannot read the script. Perhaps that is why I did not know that it does away with all the other consonant variations that exist in hindi and mostly other languages. I guess to learn more about your own home look beyond it. The other south indian languages kannada, Telugu have the variation I know for sure. I am not sure of malayalam. ETA: I just saw the video. My accent is pretty much like that of the girl in the video: bolzo, bolzo for bolo, bolo (hindi for speak, speak). It is an accent made much fun of in Hindi cinema as she points out.
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Perhaps that is why I did not know that it does away with all the other consonant variations that exist in hindi and mostly other languages.it is not so much that Tamil did away with them, Dravidian languages simply have a very different phonemic inventory than Indo-Aryan languages. The phonology of Proto-Dravidian (the reconstructed ancestor of Tamil, Malayalam, Kanada, and Telegu) only has unvoiced, unaspirated stops ( link).
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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