#18768
02/13/2001 9:28 PM
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It seems to me that we get rid of our politicians not by epuration, but by suppuration from the body politic.wwh
And while it is a more scholarly term than "ethnic cleansing" its implementation has been equally criminal.
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#18769
02/14/2001 1:38 AM
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Ick--but sometimes true. Would you please explain a bit further what you mean by criminal? Do you mean we've gotten rid of politicians by criminal methods?
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#18770
02/14/2001 8:20 AM
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Do you mean we've gotten rid of politicians by criminal methods?
Maybe ... but you certainly selected your current Prez through the courts, and it looks like Mrs Clinton's little boy Willie isn't exactly out of the woods yet, either.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#18771
02/14/2001 2:50 PM
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I meant that Tito's genocide and Milosevic's are both criminal, though one was called epuration and the other ethnic cleansing.
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#18772
02/14/2001 9:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
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you certainly selected your current Prez through the courts
Far be it from me to do so, but I simply must disagree with this assertion. I don't want to bring up the recent election anymore than you do, but I really must clear this up.
I realize that the popular belief is that the US Supreme Court chose Bush as president, but this is simply not true. I'll agree with anyone that they stopped the recounts, because that is true, but it was neccessary and proper. The means by which Florida was counting their votes was entirely subjective and very controversial. They had no state-wide standard whatsoever regarding what was a vote and what was not. Therefore, each district was counting the votes differently, which is obviously unfair. And how in the world can a ballot with a slightly bulged, but not at all punched through, chad be considered a vote? In Ohio, we have specific standards. A chad can be counted if it's hanging on by one corner, but not two or three.
Secondly, the fact that they were only recounting certain counties was a statistician's nightmare. There is a certain known percent of votes that are obviously not going to be counted for a certain reason. When they're counted by a computer state-wide, these statistics remain even and everything is fair. But when you start counting votes only in certain counties, here heavily Democratic counties, you're invariably going to come up with more votes for the Democratic candidate because more votes over all in that county were cast for that person. They may have been trying to get the true intent of the American people, but only in a few counties. Had the votes been subjectively counted in Republican counties I'm sure more new votes for Bush would have been found.
So, in conclusion, it was perfectly sensibly and logical for the Supreme Court to stop the subjective counting of votes in Florida.
And so far, Bush's presidency is going very well. He's delegating power like a true business leader. Dick Cheney is going to have more say in things than any other VP before and he's not afraid to make assertive, long-term decisions because he has no intention of running for president. The current administration is comfortable and moving smoothly.
And this concludes the AWAD Political Week in Review.
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#18773
02/15/2001 7:41 AM
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Posts: 3,146
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Any Democrats on the board?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#18774
02/15/2001 8:53 AM
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Posts: 1,027
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Dear Jazz, As a foreigner, I refrain from commenting on the qualities of either candidate. But from a purely statistical point of view, Bush was neither elected by the courts nor by the people, but by accident  .
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#18775
02/15/2001 1:10 PM
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Posts: 3,439
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Any Democrats on the board? ----------------------------------- Don't know about that but here's one very independent Independent who has voted in every primary but one (we were overseas and that's not allowed) and voted in every Presidential and every off-year election since the Eisenhower election!  So I have earned the right to compliments AND complaints. wow
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#18776
02/15/2001 2:52 PM
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Posts: 13,858
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Question: Did Al Gore get epurated?
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#18777
02/15/2001 3:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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DEMOCRAT, LIBERAL, OLD-STYLE
Yes, I am not only the above, but getting fed up with Teddy Kennedy because he's grown too conservative these last few years. I may be one of the last old-style liberal Democrats, but, as Popeye used to say, I yam what I yam AND PROUD OF IT!!!!
Jazz -- all I have to say to you is, if you believe all that guff you gave out with, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying.
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#18778
02/15/2001 3:40 PM
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A Liberal is a guy willing to give away your money.
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#18779
02/15/2001 7:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
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I say we all go to a Pub, get hammered, and then discuss politics, because (a) nobody gave me a good reason to not do so when I started with this board (I'm with you BYB) (b) It seems at least we'll all think we make sense (Jazz - paragraph #1 and #4 are a bit contradicting...) and (c) anyone who couldn't agree to disagree would slowly learn the meaning of "subjectivity"... (pardon my opinion)(BTW-I refuse to put forth any more responses in this context)
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#18780
02/15/2001 9:44 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
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if you believe all that guff you gave out with
What, I'm not supposed to believe fact?
-subjective counting
-no standards
-heavily Democratic counties
-statistician's nightmare
all of those are solid facts, my friend
Plus, the Florida Suporeme Court is quite well known for being the single most liberal court in the US.
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#18781
02/15/2001 9:56 PM
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#18782
02/16/2001 6:29 AM
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Hi William,
This is indeed a good question to bring the discussion back to reasonable proportions: Nobody in their right mind would say Gore got "epurated". You would need a monolithic doctrine to define what "pure" and "impure" are to signify. Quite apart from its desirability, there is no trace of such a doctrine. I think the problems with the election arose not from lack of democracy, but from excessive expectations put in its basic rules. Democracy, while a necessary condition, is no replacement for leadership.
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#18783
02/16/2001 11:27 AM
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Posts: 4,757
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Democracy, while a necessary condition, is no replacement for leadershipThat's good and pithy, Werner. Do you have a published work we can cite when quoting you? 
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#18784
02/16/2001 1:14 PM
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Posts: 1,027
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Do you have a published work we can cite when quoting you? You may quote W. Sieber and M. Fischer, J. Mater. Sci. (1993), 28(6), 1639-44. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand (who cares?), but it is one of the few published "works" of mine .
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#18785
02/16/2001 1:25 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
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W. Sieber and M. Fischer
you published something with Tsuwm?
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#18786
02/16/2001 3:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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The election in Florida, etc. An open note to Jazzoctopus.
I wasn't at first inclined to reply to your reply, as I know for sure this isn't the forum for political debate. We have better fish to fry here, and there are plenty of other places to go to indulge your taste for partisan politics. I have no more to say on the issue at hand, but I do have a couple things I want to say to you, Jazz, and also for the benefit of the rest of our cyber community.
Firstly, I commend you for having a real commitment to the principles of our government, for the amount of time and trouble you obviously devote to learning the issues and facts of our political scene, and for the skill with which you express yourself. Frequently, one begins to despair of the future of our species when you look around and see the miserable excuses for human beings that hang around on street corners, malls and other adolescent haunts, not to mention the ones being locked up in distressing numbers for crimes ranging from nuisance to capital grade, while at the same time 50 guilty ones go free for each one put away, because there are too many to successfully prosecute. Then we come across someone like yourself. It's a joy to see a young person with a passion for something, maybe for a number of things/causes/interests. No great objective, or even a small personal one, was ever accomplished, or ever will be accomplished, without someone, or a number of individuals, with a passionate devotion to seeing it accomplished. So, don't let anyone or any setbacks, diminish that passion until it has run its course.
Of course, speaking as a member of the community, you have to realize that the passionate individual can be, and usually is, a real pain in the ass to everyone else. It's your responsibility, as a gentleman, to minimize this (I don't say avoid it entirely, because that's impossible). This will take, on your part, a lot of toleration for the views of others, however repugnant they may be to you. You have to do what does not come naturally to someone your age -- LISTEN, really listen not just pretend, to the other side, and make a genuine effort to see your opponent's view. Then, if you still disagree, do it like a gentleman. I think you really know what I'm getting at here.
Lastly, please keep in mind, that passion, while useful and even often necessary, is counterproductive, and even highly dangerous, if not governed by principle, good sense, and good taste. Some of the worst crimes in human history have been committed by people who let themselves be overmastered by their passion for what started out as a good cause. And every day, there are people whose dreams, projects, businesses and even their personal lives, are crashing down in failure because they will not, or can not, impose on their passions the limits which humanity, principle, morality, common sense, or good manners dictate.
Here endeth the sermon. Personally, I'm glad to have you around and I encourage you to keep on giving us the view of an enlightened young member of our community, even if I don't agree with your views, and I certainly won't agree often on politics. On other subjects, we probably have more in common than you would imagine.
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#18787
02/16/2001 4:06 PM
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Posts: 11,613
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Bob, I...am near-speechless with wonder, at the veracity,
kindness, and damn common sense of your "sermon".
"We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
A deep bow to you, my friend.
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#18788
02/16/2001 4:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>DEMOCRAT, LIBERAL, OLD-STYLE I'm glad to find a US liberal, they seem to be rather thin on the ground. In the UK, the term refers to people who are fairly middle of the road. In the US, I believe it means left of centre. From my point of view, as an outsider to American politics, I was always amazed at this distinction. To me, both the Democrats and Republicans are very far to the right of the parties that can be found in Europe, let alone the UK. In the UK the "Liberal Democrats" (Lib Dems) is the name of the third largest party in the House of Commons, regarded as being in between our two main parties, except on electoral reform, where they are more strongly in favour of change than the other parties. Here's a link to an old discussion on the subject, although I feel that both our main parties are moving further to the right these days. http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=1026
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#18789
02/16/2001 8:23 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
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An open note to JazzoctopusThank you for your kind words. They are much appreciated. I too am rather annoyed by the heavily visible minority that seems to be giving my generation at bad reputation. Most of us really aren't that bad. . . at least I don't think we are. Most people I know aren't as interested in learning as I am either, though. I guess that makes me a nerd or, as my English teacher would prefer, a renaissance man. Excuse my political outburts. I guess I just like to argue sometimes. My school needs a debate club. . . I'm not really as staunchly republican as I appear. More leaning toward libertarian, I think. My dad is basically a Republican and my mom is a Democrat. Election time is very interesting in my family.
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#18790
02/16/2001 9:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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>Excuse my political outburts. I guess I just like to argue sometimes. Yes, so do I,  there just don't seem to be enough places around for a good healthy argument any more. I think the number of people who yawn when politics is mentioned is rising in all age groups. I suspect it is because of over-exposure in the media. I can see why people turn to the sporting pages. Its a shame.
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#18791
02/16/2001 9:47 PM
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I see we're way off again, but.
I can see why people turn to the sporting pages
GAH! Sports is just as bad. (The relevant section of our newspaper is called Sports. That's why the singular verb.)
Now, if there's somebody playing that I know, I go crazy.
But why on earth should I get excited about a bunch of
strangers charging up and down?
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#18792
02/16/2001 10:05 PM
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Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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But why on earth should I get excited about a bunch of strangers charging up and down? Why indeed!
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#18793
02/17/2001 6:25 AM
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Kiwi asks: "Any Democrats on the board?"
Sorry, I'm a Royalist.
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#18794
02/17/2001 1:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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"But why on earth should I get excited about a bunch of
strangers charging up and down?"
Uhhhh... Because of breathtaking speed, stamina, skill and strategy?
-- Basketball Jones, I got a basketball Jones....
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#18795
02/17/2001 2:15 PM
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Posts: 819
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In the UK, the term refers to people who are fairly middle of the road. In the US, I believe it means left of centre. From my point of view, as an outsider to American politics, I was always amazed at this distinction.
Or, as a Canadian told me, "The Loony Left." I am a registered Independent, because I believe in the etymological significance of the word, "liberal." Does it not mean "free?" Does it not imply an impartiality, or an ability and willingness to examine issues on both sides, and then decide on the better course? Democrats were called "people willing to spend your money," and I've considered Republicans to be people keen on making other people's money their own. (See the play, "Other People's Money" by Jerry Steiner, NOT the movie of the same title)
I think it was Rousseau who said, "Though I may disagree with what you say, I shall defend to the death your right to say it." THAT, IMHO, is a truly liberal statement, and it's written into the US Constitution's Bill of Rights!
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#18796
02/17/2001 2:47 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
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"Though I may disagree with what you say, I shall defend to the death your right to say it."
Voltaire
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#18797
02/17/2001 3:14 PM
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Posts: 3,439
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As a child I asked my Grandfather to explain the difference between Republican and Democrat. Grandfater : "One opens the safe with a prayer, the other opens the safe with dynamite." Child : "Which one is which, Grampa?" Grandfather : "Exactly." Which is why I am an Independant! wow
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#18798
02/17/2001 3:52 PM
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Posts: 3,439
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For all the Worker Bees who have not taken off for the long President's Day wekkend in USA, and who are here at the Board where they really belong you may enjoy a visit to : www.Speakout.com/VoteMatch where you can take a test to see which of the US presidential candidates most closely matches your views. This might be fun for those living in other countries. I just checked and it's still in operation. It will also give you your political philosophy category a la US! Have fun. wow
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#18799
02/18/2001 10:20 AM
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I had a play with this a few weeks ago (thanks Wow), and it told me that I would be voting for Ralph Nader. I guess, in American terms, that puts me firmly with what is known as the Loony Left. Interestingly enough in Zild political terms I'm slighty right of centre. What does that make our left, then? 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#18800
02/18/2001 10:54 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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>I guess, in American terms, that puts me firmly with what is known as the Loony Left. Interestingly enough in Zild political terms I'm slighty right of centre.
My point precisely! [grin] I think that the same would be true in Australia, Britain and certainly the vast majority of Europe! This is one of the reasons why I think "liberal" means left in the US and to me (I won't speak for others) it means MOR.
PS My results were not surprising - 89% Ralph Nader, Joseph Leiberman 66%, Al Gore 62%, George W Bush 16% (worrying that one!) and I didn't even express a preference on some domestic issues that I didn't know enough about, eg "the three strikes rule". In the UK, I'd describe myself as a little to the left of centre, where does that put those who are more left wing than me! I just hope that this is enough to put me on someone's "worrying troublemaker" list - I'll never get a visa again!
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#18801
02/18/2001 2:13 PM
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Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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>who have not taken off for the long President's Day weekend in USA
Wot, another holiday!? It really is very, very quiet around here!
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#18802
02/18/2001 8:27 PM
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Posts: 3,439
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Dear jmh, Yes, and we really look forward to it here in North East USA ... a long weekend in middle of winter to do what you like. It's Presidents Day ... which is a combined celebration. We used to have Lincoln on Feb 12 (some observed with day off, some didn't) and Washington's birthday (everyone observed) on Feb. 22. There was a hullabaloo some years ago about holidays falling on inconvenient (mid-week) days so a lot were mooshed together so we have more long weekends. (They haven't had the nerve to mess with the Fourth of July or Christmas yet but I'm keeping an eagle eye on them!) I miss everybody too. If they don't come back soon I may have to do some work or vacuum the house (HORRORS ) wow
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#18803
02/19/2001 2:54 PM
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the long President's DayThanks for your explanation for non-US'ns, wow. Had me worried earlier - figured it must be something to do with Big Bill Clinton
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#18804
02/19/2001 3:53 PM
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The Green Party got Nader to run partly because of his name recognition. The GP would be eligible for federal "matching funds" for campaigning if they got a certain percentage of the popular vote. Don't ask .. I've forgotten the % and whether not they made it.
Three Strikes rule ... if someone is convicted of three felonies they MUST go to prison for life (I think)
For more info you'll just have to search ... it's a holiday and I ain't agonna get serious.
wow
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#18805
02/19/2001 4:13 PM
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wow said: "The Green Party would be eligible for federal "matching funds" for campaigning if they got a certain percentage of the popular vote. Don't ask .. I've forgotten the % and whether not they made it."It was a measly 5%, and matching funds were achieved only in enlightened states like Minnesota and Oregon. Call me the Loony Left, call me a throwaway voter, just don't call me late for dinner!
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#18806
02/19/2001 10:53 PM
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Posts: 1,094
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enlightened states like Minnesota
Ah yes, where they elect professional wrestlers governor.
And it's a little strange that they would give Nader more than 5% when their governor was in the Reform party, which is generally considered farther right than the Republicans.
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#18807
02/19/2001 11:07 PM
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Posts: 10,542
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jazz, this chart represents the minnesota political spectrum: wellstone<---------------------------------------->grams |
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ventura
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