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Previous Thread Next Thread Print Thread Page 2 of 3 1 2 3 Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ Faldage #187631 11/04/09 02:55 AM Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 390 कहीं &... L latishya enthusiast latishya enthusiast L Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 390 कहीं &... Originally Posted By: Faldage Well, I just guess I'll have to define it my own self: Negative harmony is the requirement that if a verb is negated in a sentence then either the subject or the object or both must also be negated, Examples English - I ain't got no money Spanish - No hay nada 'There isn't nothing.' Russian - &#1071; &#1085;&#1077; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1102;. &#1071; &#1085;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1075;&#1086; &#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1086;&#1075;&#1076;&#1072; &#1085;&#1077; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1102;. 'I don't know. I don't never know nothing.' So the French "ne ... pas" would be another example? Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ Faldage #187632 11/04/09 04:05 AM Joined: Mar 2000 Posts: 11,613 Louisville, Kentucky Jackie Carpal Tunnel Jackie Carpal Tunnel Joined: Mar 2000 Posts: 11,613 Louisville, Kentucky I can't believe I coined the term Well, apparently you did--congratulations! And you are perfectly entitled to define it yourself, which you did exactly in accordance with what I thought you meant! Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ latishya #187635 11/04/09 06:02 AM Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh zmjezhd OP Carpal Tunnel OP zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh So the French "ne ... pas" would be another example? I'll let Faldo answer the question as it's his term, but I must address the French constructions: pas < Latin passus 'step'; just like rien < res 'thing'. Basically a positive word becoming a negative one. Good is bad, up is down, etc. Ceci n'est pas un seing. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ zmjezhd #187636 11/04/09 06:40 AM Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 390 कहीं &... L latishya enthusiast latishya enthusiast L Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 390 कहीं &... Originally Posted By: zmjezhd So the French "ne ... pas" would be another example? I'll let Faldo answer the question as it's his term, but I must address the French constructions: pas < Latin passus 'step'; just like rien < res 'thing'. Basically a positive word becoming a negative one. Good is bad, up is down, etc. sorry i am a little confused. i was asking not about the etymology of pas but if the French use of two negative elements is similar to the other examples. from the little french I know I believe that both "ne" and "pas" are negatives now, so that would be a 'double negative', no? I think i am getting beyond my ability to understand or express here. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ latishya #187638 11/04/09 07:18 AM Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh zmjezhd OP Carpal Tunnel OP zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh i was asking not about the etymology of pas but if the French use of two negative elements is similar to the other examples. from the little french I know I believe that both "ne" and "pas" are negatives now, so that would be a 'double negative', no? Yes, today they are a double negative. I was just rhapsodizing on their etymologies. Pas started out as a non-negative. Ceci n'est pas un seing. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ zmjezhd #187640 11/04/09 07:56 AM Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 390 कहीं &... L latishya enthusiast latishya enthusiast L Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 390 कहीं &... Originally Posted By: zmjezhd i was asking not about the etymology of pas but if the French use of two negative elements is similar to the other examples. from the little french I know I believe that both "ne" and "pas" are negatives now, so that would be a 'double negative', no? Yes, today they are a double negative. I was just rhapsodizing on their etymologies. Pas started out as a non-negative. Thank you. I appreciate the clarification. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ zmjezhd #187642 11/04/09 11:48 AM Joined: Dec 2000 Posts: 13,803 Faldage Carpal Tunnel Faldage Carpal Tunnel Joined: Dec 2000 Posts: 13,803 Originally Posted By: zmjezhd Pas started out as a non-negative. Which, of course, is all the peevologist proponents of the etymological fallacy need to claim it's not an example of negative harmony. Speaking of negative harmony. surely there must be a Proper Linguistic Term for it. It's not like it isn't a feature of many languages. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ Faldage #187650 11/04/09 03:28 PM Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh zmjezhd OP Carpal Tunnel OP zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,290 R'lyeh Proper Linguistic Term Sure, how about negative concord or multiple negation? See Wikipedia entry for double negative or The cameleontic nature of French ni: Negative coordination in a negative concord language). Ceci n'est pas un seing. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ Faldage #187723 11/11/09 03:18 AM Joined: Mar 2000 Posts: 11,613 Louisville, Kentucky Jackie Carpal Tunnel Jackie Carpal Tunnel Joined: Mar 2000 Posts: 11,613 Louisville, Kentucky It's not like it isn't a feature of many languages. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ Jackie #187726 11/11/09 11:25 AM Joined: Dec 2000 Posts: 13,803 Faldage Carpal Tunnel Faldage Carpal Tunnel Joined: Dec 2000 Posts: 13,803 A) I thought I'd posted this a week ago, but: D'oh! Negative concord! Of course! and 2) Originally Posted By: Jackie It's not like it isn't a feature of many languages. That's not quite the same thing. Yeah, there's two negatives in there but they're not supporting each other. It's like the difference between a) I couldn't fail to disagree with you less. and ii) I don't like to have to kill nobody without they ain't no chance of no gold in it for me. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Page 2 of 3 1 2 3 Moderated by  Jackie  Hop To General Topics ------  Information and announcements  Q&A about words  Wordplay and fun  Words and languages in schools  Miscellany  Weekly Themes  Looking for (writers, speakers,... 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