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Carpal Tunnel
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"Whoever is going to win it'll change their life."
is the sentence I hear in a coocking-contest program where dozens of people are determined to change their ordinary lifes for stressy Masterchef heaven.
Every time I hear it I wonder about this construction.
Is whoever considered as singular or plural considering the "their" later on in the sentence?
Edit S off.
Last edited by BranShea; 02/05/2009 10:36 AM.
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Carpal Tunnel
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it's "their" that's probly supposed to be considered singular - the egregious "singular they". the Chicago Manual of Style notes:
"On the one hand, it is unacceptable to a great many reasonable readers to use the generic masculine pronoun (he in reference to no one in particular). On the other hand, it is unacceptable to a great many readers either to resort to nontraditional gimmicks to avoid the generic masculine (by using he/she or s/he, for example) or to use they as a kind of singular pronoun. Either way, credibility is lost with some readers."
I think the fallacious word in this latter is "reasonable".
-joe (multiple choice in rants) friday
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old hand
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old hand
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In most European languages from time immemorial the masculine pronouns have often doubled as generic ones covering groups of people of unknown or mixed gender. Because at a popular level what is merely a grammatical construction has become confused with real life gender issues dealing with equality between the sexes, it is not likely we will go back to the former status quo. So in practical terms we are stuck (in English at least) with the choice between employing the kludgy and cumbersome "he/she" or using the plural pronoun, which in English is neuter. That seems to me to be the most logical and satisfactory solution, and one that reflects common usage, which is what all grammar is based on eventually.
- the (descriptivism rules!) pook
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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"Whoever is going to win it'll change their lifes"
is the sentence I hear in a coocking-contest program where dozens of people are determined to change their ordinary lifes for stressy Masterchef heaven.
Every time I hear it I wonder about this construction.
Is whoever considered as singular or plural considering the "their" later on in the sentence?
The use of they/their as an epicene pronoun for the third person singular in English is nearly a millennium old. I learned that here. A written history dating back 700 years or so apparently means it is much too newfangled and recent an innovation to be allowed by "style manuals".
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Carpal Tunnel
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The use of they/their as an epicene pronoun for the third person singular in English is nearly a millennium old.A good place to read up on they with singular antecedent is the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, free online at Google Books ( link), pp.901f. My favorite uses of the epicene they are from the Bible: e.g., So likewise shall my heauenly Father doe also vnto you, if yee from your hearts forgiue not euery one his brother their trespasses. Matt. 18:35. KJV. (See Language Log link). Yous truly has even had a sarcastic something ( link) to say about this grammatical feature of English.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Plus nobody who complains about singular they is ever heard to complain about singular you. The singular you is even more egregious than the singular they since it's the equivalent of the singular them used in the nominative.
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Pooh-Bah
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But it should definitely be the singular "life". Unless it is a cooking contest for cats.
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Carpal Tunnel
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But it should definitely be the singular "life". Unless it is a cooking contest for cats. You hit the nail on the head. My head in this case. I looked up the slogan and it is written without S. My bad.(see Edit) But I'll listen again tonight. Does he or not add the S in his announcement. As for the pronoun matter, thanks for the instructive links. I think we have the same problem, but we can take an escape route formula: Wie wint, diens leven zal veranderen.( wie and diens are both neutral singulars) Maybe the program makers chose this, because it works as a catchy slogan.I can't find a good English escape construction anyway.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yous truly has even had a sarcastic something ( link) to say about this grammatical feature of English. Thine old Nuncle J blog entry points up another gross egregiosity that no one seems to pule and micturate about any more, the solecistic use of the dative him in the accusative. The correct accusative is hine.
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Carpal Tunnel
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The use of they/their as an epicene pronoun for the third person singular in English is nearly a millennium old.A good place to read up on they with singular antecedent is the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, free online at Google Books ( link), pp.901f. My favorite uses of the epicene they are from the Bible: e.g., So likewise shall my heauenly Father doe also vnto you, if yee from your hearts forgiue not euery one his brother their trespasses. Matt. 18:35. KJV. (See Language Log link). Yous truly has even had a sarcastic something ( link) to say about this grammatical feature of English. As your Language Log link points out, there is Divine Variation in the Bible. I don't think there is a right answer on this issue; in many instances which could be brought out, singular they just seems... off. old adage: He who laughs last, laughs best. recast, They who laugh s last laugh s best. This just doesn't have the same thrust. you could say that every U.S. president has had to make their own difficult choices. but every U.S. president (to date) has been male, so this sounds somehow better: every U.S. president has had to make his own difficult choices.
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Carpal Tunnel
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old adage:
He who laughs last, laughs best.
recast,
They who laughs last laughs best.
This just doesn't have the same thrust.
Doesn't sound good to me either, but Give everyone their supper sounds just fine. (*That's if we're going by sound and grammar rather than logic.) You don't have to use it if you don't want to, but I find nothing wrong with the usual usage of epicene they. In fact, it fills a hole in English grammar.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Carpal Tunnel
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>it fills a hole in English grammar.
sure. I'm just sayin' that, as a rule, it's just as useless as the other.
-ron o.
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Carpal Tunnel
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old adage:
He who laughs last, laughs best.
recast,
They who laughs last laughs best.
This just doesn't have the same thrust.
Doesn't sound good to me either, but Give everyone their supper sounds just fine. (*That's if we're going by sound and grammar rather than logic.) You don't have to use it if you don't want to, but I find nothing wrong with the usual usage of epicene they. In fact, it fills a hole in English grammar. It doesn't sound good because it violates the rule that the form of the verb follows the pronoun and not the number of the meaning. "Whither you goest" sounds wrong, too. Of course, if you say "They who laugh last, laugh best" you have no way of telling if it's a singular they or not.
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