#18218
11/26/2001 1:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
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Evenkite - the mineral with the lowest SG that stales is aware of.
Mercury - mineral and native element - NOT the 'heaviest' of either. Any statement to the contrary is a stales furphy.
Gold - also a mineral and native element - also NOT the heaviest of either.
Osmium - an element (Os) - but not a mineral and not found in the elemental state in nature.
Iridium - Confusing. An element (Ir) - but not found in its elemental form in nature. A different beast, 'Iridium' (formerly known as Osmiridium) is a mineral with the formula (Ir,Os,Ro) - ie it's an alloy of three metallic elements, iridium, osmium and rhodium. Iridium (the mineral) IS the heaviest mineral that stales is aware of - having now been brought into line.
In the mineral world one always uses a leading capital letter when spelling the mineral species - thus usage would be: ....the heaviest of minerals is Iridium, which consists of iridium, osmium and rhodium.
Any other contenders or do we now have it?
stales
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#18219
11/26/2001 2:21 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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I've been there  . Ijen is in a very isolated part of East Java. I went there about 12 years ago to have a look at the volcano. To get there you go by bus to a town whose name I've forgotten now, and then hitch a ride in the back of a truck going to the Ijen coffee plantation. They don't let down the tail gate of the truck, you clamber in over it (I do not clamber easily). If I remember rightly we had a burst tyre on the way -- everybody clambers out while they fix the tyre and then clambers back in. There's a plantation guest house where you can stay for a couple of nights, with a few warungs (small shops)round about where you can buy bottled water, instant noodles, and snacks. Boiled peanuts are very popular. (You mean you eat them raw! Doesn't it give you a stomachache?)Excuse me a moment while I go and have a look at my photos. In the morning I went by ojek (motorcycle taxi) to the base of the mining camp. Kawah Ijen means Ijen Crater. It's in the foothills of a volcano called Merapi (very popular name for volcanoes -- just means firy). I had some good views of the volcano belching out smoke. The path to the crater goes up a steep ridge and then down into the crater itself. The vegetation either side of the path is mainly scrubland and conifers of one sort or another( pinus in Indonesian). I was reasonably fit in those days but I was definitely panting by the time I'd ambled my way up to the top -- and all I was carrying was a small backpack with a bottle of water and some sunscreen. It took me about an hour to get up but the miners trot up and down the path much faster than I was going and with a pikulan (long piece of wood with a big panier at each end) full of sulphur rocks (I don't know the specific gravity of sulphur but I'm sure they were pretty heavy). They certainly didn't seem to be showing any ill effects from this. In the crater itself they chip out the exposed sulphur rocks from the surface of the ground. There's a grey-green lake at the bottom of the lake which I didn't want to get too close to as it was giving off an unhealthy-looking steam. The water running down the sides of the crater was quite hot and smelt horrible, though it's recommended for skin complaints and the complexion, apparently. I did try washing my face in it, but can't say whether it had much effect! Smoke comes out of the ground in places and if the wind happens to be in the wrong direction you can get a lung full which is not very pleasant -- eyes and nose streaming and a terrible smell of something that has gone badly wrong with the drains. PS. Having been to Ijen makes me a veteran according to Anu. Bingley
Bingley
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#18220
11/26/2001 2:36 AM
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Hearty congratulations, veteran Bingley! 
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#18221
11/26/2001 2:46 AM
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I, too, have climbed a volcano. This was two years ago in Costa Rica. Volcán Arenal is an active volcano. When we arrived in the town, the top portion of the volcano was obscured by clouds. That afternoon we took an excursion(the only way I would reccomend climbing an active volcano) that led us through the forest and up the mountain. It started calmly enough. A nice walk through the forest. Then we reached a point where the path began to get steeper and slicker, due to obsidian-like sand. The final stretch was boulder-hopping at its finest. Each boulder had a rough, ground glass quality that would skin you alive if you slipped and fell. Quite the incentive to step carefully. Did I mention it was dark by then? When we reached the farthest point recommended for climbing, we were politely asked to not risk the Red Cross rescue teams that would have to go in and retrieve our bodies if we wished to get a closer look. The cloud cover was still holding and we could hear boulders smashing down the mountain. Occasionally the clouds would lift and we could see the lava shooting toward the sky. All in all, it was quite impressive. Our tour ended at the resort at the bottom of the mountain that had pools fed by hot springs and a swim up bar. Best way I know to ease the overworked muscles. Anyone contemplating a trip to Costa Rica should try it. I give it A 92.
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#18222
11/26/2001 3:06 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Cool, Bingley! Thanks for the great first-hand account! From the accounts in the article and accompanying photos all I can say is that those miners are some mighty brave souls...and all for less than $2 a day! And using a sulphur mining process that was outdated in the 19th century!  And congrats on your other "elevation"!
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#18223
11/26/2001 5:18 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
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old hand
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Congratulations on reaching two dizzying pinnacles Bingley!
stales
PS - Thanx for the link to the Smithsonian article. The comment that those guys appear to be suffering no ill effects despite ten years working in the crater seems far fetched. Without proper filtration equipment the SO2 vapours they inhale will condense as sulfuric acid in their trachea and lungs. Having been exposed to only a couple of whiffs of sulfur dioxide from the old smelter at Kalgoorlie I can say first hand it's an unpleasant, let alone highly dangerous pastime. Asthmatics are particularly susceptible - likely to have a major attack within seconds.
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#18224
11/26/2001 10:11 PM
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stales:
Mercury does NOT appear in nature in its elemental form. It is so volatile in reaction that it turns into a compound (which is a molecule consisting of two or more different atoms) when "in the wild". The most common form is I believe cinnabar, one mercury atom coupled with one sulfur atom. It also oxidizes, and that's one thing Terra has is plenty of oxygen (even up here.)
TEd
TEd
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#18225
11/27/2001 12:19 AM
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Ted - sorry to have to contradict you - but....
Native Mercury is rare - but it is found at several places as Mercury, not Cinnibar. It occurs as tiny blobs embedded in crevices and pores of the rock and does not roll around unless tampered with. Locations include:
(1) The best specimens are found in association with Cinnibar at Almaden, Ciudad Real, Spain.
(2) The Almaden and New Almaden mines in Santa Clara county, California.
(3) The Socrates Mine, Sonoma County, California.
(4) At Idria, San Benito County, California.
(5) In Arkansas and Texas
(6) In Czechoslovakia
I stated earlier that it was the only liquid mineral at standard temperatures and pressures. Technically this is incorrect as Water also fills this bill. It belongs in the Oxides group - being an oxide of hydrogen.
stales
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#18226
11/27/2001 1:05 AM
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From the dense-as-iridium land of DubDub:
Stales, thanks for providing those pockets of Mercury. But you lost me when you made your point about mercury and water. Water's not a mineral, however, is it, so your point that mercury is the only liquid would appear to still stand on its liquideous little legs, huh? When you mentioned the oxides group, that was where you lost me in the discussion about minerals...
Thanks for your patience,
Rocky
PS: The Socrates Mine in Sonoma County, California, inspired me to ask still another question.
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#18227
11/27/2001 1:39 AM
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ww
I got the following info from a commercial site and would be happy to provide its URL via PM - just let me know. Under the definition provided, water IS a mineral.
"A mineral, by definition, is any naturally occurring, inorganic substance, often additionally characterized by an exact crystal structure. Its chemical structure can be exact, or can vary within limits. Elements that occur naturally are also considered minerals.
All minerals belong to a chemical group, which represents their affiliation with certain elements or compounds. The classified chemical groups are known as: Elements, Sulfides, Oxides, Halides, Carbonates, Nitrates, Borates, Sulfates, Chromates, Phosphates, Arsenates, Vanadates, Tungstates, molybdates, and Silicates. Some of these chemical groups have sub-categories, which may be categorized in some mineral references as separate groups.
All minerals belong to various crystal structure groups, classified according to the way the atoms of the mineral are arranged. Minerals also have distinctive properties, such as color, hardness, crystal habit, specific gravity, luster, fracture, and tenacity. Many of these properties can vary among a single mineral, within limits. Many minerals exhibit certain properties that others do not, such as fluorescence and radioactivity.
Minerals are an economic commodity; they are mined because of the need for a valuable element they contain or an intrinsic property they may have. Other minerals are mined for their beauty and rareness, thus giving many specimens an accepted worldwide value. There are about 3,000 different types of minerals, and new ones are constantly discovered. Most of them are not known to professional mineral collectors, because they are rare, have no economic purpose, and for the most part do not make good specimens."
I note also that there's a school of thought that seeks to use a separate category - "minaraloids". The definition given is that these substances are amorphous, inorganic that lack crystal structure. Along with Mercury, this group includes Water, Opal and Obsidian. I'm a traditionalist and prefer the KISS approach - mercury and water are minerals to me.
In classification terms Quartz is a trap for new players. Because people know it consists of silicon and oxygen they often mistake it for a silicate. In fact it also is an oxide - of silicon
stales
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#18228
11/27/2001 9:07 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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For those who want to see a volcano without actually having to climb up it, there is a drive-in volcano just outside Bandung called Tungkabun Prahu (meaning overturned boat). According to legend there was a beautiful queen in search of someone worthy to replace her beloved late husband. To make sure that the candidate was indeed worthy he had to build her a boat in a single night so that they could go sailing on the local lake. A handsome young stranger called Sangkuriang who had the gods on his side decided to have a go. He prayed to the gods to prevent the sun from rising until he'd finished his boatbuilding. When the queen came to see how he was getting on, she recognised by a scar on his shoulder that he was in fact her son who had been lost in the jungle as a child. In desperation she woke up a cockerel, which crowed and the sun came up. In a fit of temper the prince threw the boat he'd almost finished at the mountains. The boat broke one of the mountains which was damming up the lake so the lake drained away and the boat became a mountain in its place.
With a bit of imagination and from the right direction the mountain does look like an upside down Noah's ark. Some people say that the story is a folk memory of real geological events.
Anyway, be that as it may there is a road up to the lip of the volcano's crater so that you can go and have a look down into the volcano. Nothing very spectacular to see, just grey and yellow rocks and steam belching out in various places. The volcano did erupt in the 1970s but not much damage was done. There is a geyser where you can boil eggs, and a town in the valley below where you can bathe in hot springs. Very relaxing, once you get in there. Edge in cautiously because they are HOT.
My favourite volcano is Krakatau, which for USns' information is West of Java, in the Sunda straits between Java and Sumatra. This is the big one that erupted explosively in the 1880s causing multi-coloured sunsets all over the world, a small tidal wave in the English channel. The noise of the eruption was heard as far away as Singapore. To get to Anak Krakatau (child of Krakatoa, the original sank in the great eruption) you go by motor boat from Pantai Carita (the beach of stories). It takes about 3 or 4 hours. There's a little bit of vegetation round the edge of the island but the rest is just a gentle slope of black sand up to the crater. Lots of bits of pumice lying around, but not a lot happening (at least not while I was there -- I hear it's got a bit more active since). The beach of black sand is lovely and the water is very clear. It's a great place to have a swim before the boat takes you back to Carita.
Bingley
Bingley
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#18229
11/27/2001 12:45 PM
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Thanks, Stales. That, too, was edifying information. So, mineral water could be called Mineral Mineral, huh?
Before reading what you and others have written here, I would have simply thought of water as a compound, nothing more or less.
Best regards,
MM (That's WW upside-down for Mineral Mineral)
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#18230
11/27/2001 1:07 PM
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Bingley
Many thanks for your further tales of the fiery furnace within.
There are no active volcanoes in Australia so I have yet to meet my first "live" one. We also have a drive in volcano - but it's as dead as a maggot. On the outskirts of Warrnambool in Victoria. What I would have given for a bit of steam and a sulfurous smell the day I went there!
BTW - you mentioned that Krakatau sank - I was under the impression that the cone was vaporised during the big bang?
I've seen pics of the daughter and she is one pretty place.
stales
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#18231
11/28/2001 2:50 AM
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Bingley, what a fascinating tale! Thank you. Volcanoes being rather thin on the ground (hi, CK!) in Kentucky, I am having a hard time envisioning a drive-in one. I am imagining a road lined with booths, with sellers hawking "genuine lava rocks", tin miniature models of the mountain, etc.
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#18232
11/28/2001 5:42 AM
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Pictures of Krakatau: http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/southeast_asia/indonesia/krakatau.html The accompanying text says collapse of the caldera, so it seems that at least some of it sank. > There are no active volcanoes in Australia so I have yet to meet my first "live" one. We also have a drive in volcano - but it's as dead as a maggot Why a maggot? They're alive surely, even if they don't give off vapours and a sulphuric smell. Bingley
Bingley
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#18233
11/28/2001 5:49 AM
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Well, they didn't have tin models, but down one of the paths leading away from the car park they did have wood carvings, seashell mobiles, sweaters, tortoiseshell ornaments, T-shirts, and other souvenirs, and guys with polaroid cameras were wandering round offering to take your picture at the volcano.
Bingley
Bingley
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#18234
11/28/2001 7:28 AM
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dunno why we say that about maggots - it's illogical (illogic?? to bring in another thread) but in common usage.
Although I mentioned that we don't have active volcanos IN Australia, it is ironic (yet another thread!) that there is such a thing as an active Australian volcano. Furthermore, it's the highest Australian mountain! Only one thing - the volcano in question is Big Ben - and it's on Heard Island, way down in the southern Ocean, well on the way to Antarctica. At 2,745m ASL, Big Ben is 500m higher than the tallest mainland peak of Mt Kosciusko (2,229m ASL).
This is one that pops up at quiz nights - along with "What is the tallest mountain known?" (Answer = Olympus Mons - on Mars)
BTW: When I say "active", that point is debatable in regard to Big Ben. In the texts BB is generally referred to as dormant, but some fumarolic activity and a possible lava flow were noted in March this year.
stales
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#18235
11/28/2001 2:08 PM
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stales:
OK. OK. Five years of earth sciences in grade school and high school DOWN the drain! You would think I am old enough to know that never doesn;t mean it!
Another interesting element is gallium, which melts in your hand. I don;t know much about it, but I think it's used for the fusible links in fire sprinklers because it can be alloyed to melt at a very specific temperaure.
Ted
TEd
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#18236
11/28/2001 2:55 PM
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Dear TEd: Gallium arsenide used to be important in manufacture of semi-conductors, and probably still is, though things change fast in that business. I can't remember what properties made it so useful.
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#18237
11/28/2001 4:20 PM
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Gallium arsenide used to be important in manufacture of semi-conductors, and probably still is, though things change fast in that business. I can't remember what properties made it so useful.Methinks it's the number of valence electrons. Too lazy to look it up; I should be working!
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#18238
11/29/2001 8:12 AM
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I remember seeing an episode of Candid Camera where the teaspoons in a diner were made of gallium.
Patrons would nonchalantly stir their cuppa, only to pull out a spoonless handle - the rest having melted in the coffee!!
Hopefully the camera crew got to each punter before they swallowed any!
stales
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#18239
11/30/2001 12:25 AM
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Patrons would nonchalantly stir their cuppa, only to pull out a spoonless handle Ohmigawd, how funny! 
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#18240
11/30/2001 1:02 AM
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That could give the restaurant's coffee a bad reputation.
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#18241
11/30/2001 2:12 AM
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> That could give the restaurant's coffee a bad reputation
You don't need to use gallium to get the same effect with airline coffee. Their stuff has the same effect on stainless steel!
stales
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#18242
11/30/2001 9:13 AM
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Something dead is feasted on by maggots. The term makes sense, figuratively applied.
Gallium: Any others like it? And what's gallium's SG? Maybe Dali's watches were made of it...?
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#18243
11/30/2001 3:37 PM
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I looked at dictionary for etymology of maggot, and was surprised to find it related to word "mawkish".
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#18244
12/01/2001 8:24 AM
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Wordwind, weren't maggots pieces of music at one time? Sort of light pieces a busy Renaissance man would jot down in his spare time?
Bingley
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#18245
12/01/2001 1:23 PM
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Bingley, I'm still searching for music and maggots--you would know that there would be a rock group, huh? But look at the link below, and scroll down to 1100 - 1700 AD for something on spotaneous regeneration... Will try to refine my search a bit and see whether there's any musical maggots. (Remember Maggot in The Dirty Dozen?) http://www.mygradnet.com/Biotech/early_history.htmAnd skating on ice: Wouldn't ice be of the lightest minerals? It's certainly found in the natural world, and it floats on water... What would be the metaphorical situations here for when our coldest natures float upon our liquid ones? Brrrrrr regards, Figure Eight
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#18246
12/01/2001 2:50 PM
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http://www.biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio114/spontgen.htm: It is easy in hindsight to regard earlier views with smug superiority, for the notion of "spontaneous generation" is of course ridiculous on the scale of complex organisms. However, past generations aceepted "spontaneous generation" only as applicatble to certain lower animal, for which that belief was supported by good evidence and was well accepted by reputable authority, in particular by Aristotle. http://www.accessexcellence.org/AB/BC/Spontaneous_Generation.html: It was not until quite late that careful experimentation demonstrated that not even bacterial life arises by spontaneous generation. Louis Pasteur devised the clinching experiment in 1859.
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#18247
12/01/2001 3:45 PM
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Dear WW: After managing to avoid a large number of rock groups I found one reference as an example of your word "maggot". No definition, however.
A Maggot
Thomas Arne (1710-1778)
The large and appreciative audience were particularly enchanted with the
delightful Maggot by Arne,
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#18248
12/01/2001 4:07 PM
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Note on Arne: ARNE (m) Short form of ARNOLD and Scandinavian names beginning with the Old Norse element arn meaning "eagle".
...I've lost the site. Sorry I can't post the url, but will go back and find it.
Thomas Arne is the only one I can find, too, who composed maggots. Now to compose a maggot, be very patient with it. Give it lots of reassurance, encouragement, and advise it to take deep breaths. Deep breathing is essential here if a maggot is to be composed.
Scoring maggots (now that's another thing altogether),
DubDub
PS: Back to minerals: I asked above would ice be of the lightest minerals? SG and all that jazz?
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#18249
12/02/2001 4:02 AM
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And why is is that military drill instructors are so fond of calling their new recruits, "Maggots!"?
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#18250
12/02/2001 2:59 PM
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I would like to have a dollar for every ti;me I have seen "erne" in a crossword puzzle.
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#18251
12/02/2001 5:15 PM
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What would be the metaphorical situations here for when our coldest natures float upon our liquid ones?
Wordwind, I have thought and thought about this intriguing question, and have been unable to come up with anything other than the hackneyed he/she acts cold, but that hides a warm heart. Could you provide any examples or pointers?
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#18252
12/02/2001 10:02 PM
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Jackie... I threw the ice upon water out as bait. I've packed it away in my head to see when something will remind me of it. I don't know how other people think, but I see our inner workings as being fluid. Some are fluid in and out; then there are those who are fluid in, but ice without, like a frozen pond.
Speaking of: What was it that Emerson said about (and here comes a horrible paraphrase) the majority of people spend their lives skating on surfaces?
Back to ice: Then there are those who come out of the night like icebergs, they are so deadly and rigid. But that's really an insult to ice bergs. (Is it one word or two?)
And, to maintain my persistence, is ice actually the lightest of minerals SG-wise?
I've gone fond of thinking of myself, incidentally, as being dense as iridium this week. Thanks, Stales!
Dub
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#18253
12/02/2001 11:46 PM
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Dear WW: could you by any chance be thinking of Emerson's friend?
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
- Henry David Thoreau
As a bit of sad trivia, I read recently that both Emerson and Thoreau were victims of tuberculosis.
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#18254
12/03/2001 10:44 PM
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wwh: The lives of quiet desperation I'm familiar with as Thoreau's. I don't know whether Thoreau also wrote the comment about the majority of people spending their lives skating on surfaces. He certainly could have.
About Emerson, I remember having heard that he climbed (spelling error alert) Qtaden in a suit.
Dub
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#18255
12/04/2001 12:10 AM
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Posts: 866 |
WW
Sorry I didn't rsvp IMMEDIATELY, but I spent the last couple of days earning my keep, to-ing and fro-ing from a mine site near Mt Magnet, about 600km N of Perth (in the middle of nowhere).
Interesting q about the SG of ice. You are quite correct that, because it floats on water, it is less dense / has a lower SG than water. What that value is I don't know - haven't had time to look it up.
Why is it so?
When water is frozen it expands - or, in scientific terms, its volume increases. Thus, a volume of ice (say one cc) will, when thawed, produce less than one cc of water. SG is calculated as the mass (or "weight" - to use the incorrect vernacular) of a substance per standard unit of volume (one cc). Thus it's easy to see that a cc of ice has less mass than the same volume of water, a lower SG and that it will float. well I think I can follow all that!!
A WILD stab as to what ice's SG is.....considering that seven eighths of an iceberg sinks in sea water (which is denser than pure water), it is tempting to assume that the SG of ice is around 12.5% less than that of water - ie 0.875. Evenkite, the candidate for lowest SG last week, has an SG of 0.87 so it would be a close call if these wild assumptions are anywhere near correct. If I knew what the coefficient of expansion (ie the volume change) for the freezing of water was we'd have the answer!
stales
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#18256
12/04/2001 12:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear WW: I could not find reference to Emerson climbing Katahdin in a tuxedo. But he might have. He could not have found a sporting good store.
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#18257
12/04/2001 12:18 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
Jackie - I apologise if somebody answered your q elsewhere in this thread - had a quick look but couldn't find one...
I think the word that was buzzing around your head may have been "scoria" - it's easy to see why "scree" may have popped out instead.
Scoria is a generic term for all the bits of sh** that are chucked out by a volcano - and in particular (pun intended), the smaller stuff. Pumice and volcanic "ash" are examples of scoria.
stales
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